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Paladin Design Goals

A few weeks ago, we shared a high-level overview of the design goals for the...

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2 / 136

Enigmatical

@WaltKovacs,
I think this is an area that is often easily abused, though usually it is inadvertantly "misused" either due to inexperience or through a lack of understanding the deep implications of what this means.
All too often a DM or a player would use such a power when talking to someone, and by detecting evil, they would instantly assume the person was lying (as all people who are evil must by definition lie all the time right?), and from that point would treat the person as if...

View full comment @WaltKovacs,

I think this is an area that is often easily abused, though usually it is inadvertantly "misused" either due to inexperience or through a lack of understanding the deep implications of what this means.

All too often a DM or a player would use such a power when talking to someone, and by detecting evil, they would instantly assume the person was lying (as all people who are evil must by definition lie all the time right?), and from that point would treat the person as if they had just murdered someone.

What a lot of DM's, and also players forget to consider is the true implication of what evil means. It doesn't always mean they "commit" evil, just that their moral compass is the diametrical opposite of those who are good. There could be any number of reasons why they haven't actually turned their intent into action, which could range anywhere from lack of opportunity to cowardise (there is nothing saying that an evil person could be too scared to actually commit evil, yet still they see nothing wrong with evil acts), or even just because it doesn't suit their ends.

DM's who use this device need to be very clear and set up good RP situations which teach the players that just because they are evil, doesn't mean they are instant targets of smite.

In fact, some of the best RP situations I have seen have stemmed from NPC's who have a very good image and do helpful things for their community, but secretly are evil. The players run around trying to convince everybody they are evil, but the populace cannot see it because they have only ever known the person to do good.

Having said all that, it can be a slippery slope to start introducing means to categorically label someone by their alignment. Once a Paladin states that someone is evil, everybody would treat them differently, they would come under more scrutiny, and things just wouldn't work the same. Then it degenerates into paladins being used to detect evil during all trade agremeents, and before hiring people in important places, and the whole thing just spirals down into a horrible mess that stems from something being irrefutable, that generally is unknowable.

Personally I think #2 should be a bit more ambiguous, and that the Paladin should be able to detect evil influences (ie items that are evil etc), but they shouldn't be able to detect evil within a person unless it was unimaginably strong (ie a demon in disguise). By making it a bit ambiguous you no longer have the problems mentioned above, and all the Paladin knows is "something is not right here", and this could be anything from the person just happens to carry around a coin that was previously held by a demon, to the person had murderous thoughts about killing a boss (but of course would never do it). In the end, it shouldn't be absolute and unrefutable.

May 22, 2012 4:07 AM

Enigmatical

@TRBand/FutureScienceJesus,
I am not too sure about Paladin's as themes, but that is more dependant on what the other themes are. If themes are being used like they were in Dark sun, wher the theme was something like "trader", which actually defined the function they had in the real world, then I think Paladin fits in nicely.
If however themes are things like "striker" and "slayer", then these kinds of themes reflect a focusing of choices towards the types of actions a person wants to...

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May 22, 2012 4:10 AM

Goblins Care Only About Your Axe

I’ve played a lot of D&D lately. But even when using rules prone to...

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2 / 77

Rian_Lightblade

@RadperT: Complicated and simpler are always subjective terms. What is complicated for some is simpler for others.

May 16, 2012 9:04 AM

G.Alfieri

I like how this edition is developing.

May 17, 2012 5:01 AM

Wizard with a License to Kill

Some of Rob’s latest blogs have described a possible approach to D&D...

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2 / 54

TribbleGeddon

I think the biggest problem in D&D multiclass design is that the focus has always been on LIMITING players to a certain class role. Players obviously want to push those boundaries, so multiclassing was invented. If backgrounds and themes are optional, I don't see any problem in making this a way to multiclass. Making multiclassing easier to do doesn't make the classes less distinct. (Especially if you preserve classic cookie cutter class roles in the core without background/theme...

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May 13, 2012 7:21 AM

AbdulAlhazred

Tribble, I think they did say there are more advanced themes perhaps. Something along those lines, like something you can access at level 6 or higher. It could be a choice of continuing to get new stuff in your current theme or picking another for instance. You could delay that pick too.

May 17, 2012 2:47 PM

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Resilient Heroes

Demascus coughed up grit. He tried to spit, but his mouth was too dry. Why...

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2 / 210

marco9999

Please, don't make second wind and healing surges compulsory. Or at least give us an option where we can avoid them. I'm totally against them.
IMHO, damage should occur less frequently. Characters should be more able to avoid it altogether, thus relying less on them.
Secondly, magic can heal damage just fine. If you don't have a healer, bring in NPCs, a magic item, a healing potion, a sacred pool, a ritual, something like that.
Third, first aid can help a little. And more advanced...

View full comment Please, don't make second wind and healing surges compulsory. Or at least give us an option where we can avoid them. I'm totally against them.

IMHO, damage should occur less frequently. Characters should be more able to avoid it altogether, thus relying less on them.

Secondly, magic can heal damage just fine. If you don't have a healer, bring in NPCs, a magic item, a healing potion, a sacred pool, a ritual, something like that.

Third, first aid can help a little. And more advanced medical skills, while heavily time-dependent, can help even more. Which is totally cool. You don't wanna get wounded badly (or at all, as for that!) and if you are, well, you'll have to rest and take meds for many days -months even. Tough, but that's how it actually works if you don't have someone who can heal you with magic. So -don't get hit!

Let's not make adventures easy stuff, country excursions, or what's the point. You can be killed, and yes, you can be wounded, and that's not nice either.

Second wind is a good and interesting concept, but when you're pierced by arrows or bleeding from a nasty cut it doesn't do anything at all, really. Combat, or any other situation where you actually -are wounded- (as opposed to merely fatigued) is deadly, and while you're fighting you never get that exhilarating, powerful second wind feeling -not even one bit.

And no separate real damage/stun damage tracking, either. All damage is potentially deadly. Punches don't hurt -in a different way- , and they can kill you just like any other kinetic trauma can.

Use abstract action/fate/narrative-immunity points, instead. Those keep the action relatively realistic and still give the players a little leeway to play with.

Now, if you want to make self-healing part of the game, OK. I won't use it, and while the majority probably will, many won't, all the same, so like I said, give us alternatives, please. Really. Options, options, options.

Demascus probably won't make it unless he gets real lucky -he's wounded and trapped under rocks. If he's fit and tough (and IIRC he is) he'll be able to survive for days, and he might even be able to gather enough strength to get out of there, bandage his cuts and tend to his broken bones while feeding on I don't know exactly what until he manages to walk away... but really, his best chance? Someone to rescue him.

May 13, 2012 6:49 AM

Kestralb

+1 to those who have said losing HP should not be the same as being injured. Wounds are debilitating, and losing HP almost never is (until you hit 0). As DM, I usually describe a minor/non-debilitating wound at 1/2 HP ("bloodied") followed by a serious/deadly one at 0, but all other hits are merely wearing down a creatures stamina or setting it up for the hit.
I'm not a huge fan of healing surges, mainly because I don't like that they run out. It often feel like there's no...

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May 15, 2012 6:49 AM

Imagination, the Grid, and Points Between

When I first started playing D&D oh so many years ago, fights with monsters...

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2 / 148

marco9999

I agree with Nalehw. Go for it, allow all manners of combat, from TotM to grid & minis, allow folks to use them in different parts of a scenario -hell, even in different phases/areas of the same fight!- and give suggestions on how to get the most advantage out of them and how to avoid pitfalls or lessen disadvantages. You can even devote rules modules or Dragon/Dungeon articles to even more variants. Don't compel people to use all methods, or any method as for that. And make situations and...

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May 12, 2012 2:59 AM

marco9999

Oh, and encourage communication between players too. Really. Social contract, feedback, the whole shebang. When everyone speaks up there are less misunderstandings, less shattered hopes, less disappointment -and since we're having fun you benefit directly of course.

May 12, 2012 3:03 AM

Crypt of the Ninja Queen

D&D’s beating heart is its wealth of adventures. Recall titles such as...

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2 / 77

SamyMerchi

Geographical wonders are really memorable -- WHEN THERE ARE VISUAL AIDS. The most amazing sight across all planes will fall short of intended effect unless the DM is a true artist with speech.
One aspect that was left out (or maybe was considered part of roleplaying) is MEMORABLE CHARACTERS. That's one of the things that my players think back to the most. The characters they encountered, both enemies and allies. So I would have to say that's definitely one of the biggies, and I wasn't sure...

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April 26, 2012 9:57 AM

marco9999

Short adventures are great. They can be whipped up when people decide to play D&D on a whim and concluded in a single session. Cool!
I also have a soft spot for adventure paths and similar 1st to x lvl arcs, but remember to give strong hooks for the characters, ideas and concepts the players can work on so that the experience can be more personal and intense (Scales of War needed this badly, but you never even told the DMs what was gonna happen next, and it comes off as a sprawling,...

View full comment Short adventures are great. They can be whipped up when people decide to play D&D on a whim and concluded in a single session. Cool!

I also have a soft spot for adventure paths and similar 1st to x lvl arcs, but remember to give strong hooks for the characters, ideas and concepts the players can work on so that the experience can be more personal and intense (Scales of War needed this badly, but you never even told the DMs what was gonna happen next, and it comes off as a sprawling, tangled chaos of a plot, y'know?).

Avoid world-shaking events. You do know by now people don't like them. At least avoid them in canon. You -can- publish an adventure about something like the Time of Troubles or the Spellplague, but leave this stuff strictly optional, don't incorporate it in official timelines, books and rules -leave the choice to the players (that's sort of my anthem, ain't it? Or at least part of it... be flexible, keep it simple, leave the choice to the players...).

Open-ended (or even better, sandbox, if I get what you mean) is great. Aim for a lot of these. No railroading. No one likes railroading. Railroading subtly is a very complex technique and it usually doesn't pay anyhow. Give us basic plots and let us enter and exit them however we want. That does work. Remember your last Neverwinter setting? That rocks. Great freedom, great potential... aim for stuff like that.

As for urban vs dungeon vs wilderness, mystery vs action vs horror, emphasis on roleplaying or tactics or story or all of them... you'll have to give us a little of everything. Most of us like all of this stuff, some things more than others, but variety is the key here. Publish very different stuff. Traps and puzzles and clue-searching and intrigue, they're all important in different moments to different people. You can publish whole adventures or even settings focusing on some elements instead of others, and adventures too. Oh, and remember to give us hooks why we should care about this stuff. Of course everyone will be interested in different things, so tell the DM what kind of conflicts and NPCs and developments they can expect. We freed the dwarven fortress from the orcs squatting in it? Nice. The dwarf reconquered the fortress of their ancestors and destroyed the orc army who slayed those same ancestors? Now we're getting to something meatier. Personal involvement makes everything a lot more exciting for everyone. Always give possible hooks and ties -to NPCs, archvillains, situations, locations, items... everything you can. Not just based on class and "race" -think about all the possible things that might heighten up the ante -loved ones, hometowns, sworn enemies and old rivals, mentors and church-given missions... power is cool, but power without a thrilling story behind it is just... uh, we've all been there, haven't we? We've all found our magic weapons and whatnots... make it personal, folks. Make it in your face, close up and -personal.

May 12, 2012 1:58 AM

Smudgius voted in the poll, "Raise Dead".

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Smudgius voted in the poll, "Do you like Rob’s proposal?".

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Complexity vs. Ease of Play

The great thing about 4th Edition is that the character choices provide...

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2 / 245

Authw8

I do not think classes should be different in complexity. However, I think characters should be. I want to be able to play a complicated fighter with lots of special maneuvers, and a simple wizard that blasts a single target for magic damage every single turn. There's no reason to make entire classes inaccessible for players just because you want to vary up the complexity level.

April 27, 2012 4:29 PM

marco9999

Keep it simple in the core rules and give us options to dial up the complexity however we want in the rules modules, mainly. So you make it both accessible to most folks and customizable to different tastes. Remember that flexibility will be your greatest asset if you really wanna satisfy the broadest base possible.

May 9, 2012 10:04 AM

Smudgius voted in the poll, "Ease vs. Complexity".

1 person likes this poll.

final9 voted in the poll, "Iconic Cleric Poll".

Iconic D&D Clerics

This will be my last blog about clerics for awhile, so let’s end on a...

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2 / 106

marco9999

I knew I had forgotten something!
Kill alignment.
Kill it with fire.
Sure, leave it as an option if you want, but make it strictly optional. Alignment has been one of the biggest sources of problems since the beginning of the game, when you could only be Chaotic, Lawful or Neutral. Sure, it might be useful short-hand... but it often becomes a steady source of migraines and philosophical debates best left to, yep, philosophers.
Don't give clerics a requisite alignment, give...

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May 9, 2012 10:14 AM

marco9999

BTW, D20 Modern allegiances were a much better short-hand. Consider using them instead. Or if you're too fond of alignment, consider making both optional rules. They could use some polishing, but allegiance Asmodeus tells you a lot more already than alignment evil, for instance. And it's less likely to start arguments, that's for sure.

May 9, 2012 10:21 AM

final9 voted in the poll, "Sneak Attack".

1 person likes this poll.

Smudgius voted in the poll, "What is your favorite class from across the editions?".

Favorite Class

Let me tell you about my character. I’m playing a star pact warlock...

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2 / 137

RKVM

I love Psionics. I've long been a Paladin fanboy, but mostly for the Paragon Defender aspect. With the inclusion of the Battlemind, I have moved beyond the religious zealot and am now blissfully hacking and bashing my way through the D&D world with not but the power of my mind! :D
While I do love how the Battlemind already works, a possibility I'd like to see would be a variation of the Psion. Meaning instead of the Psionic Defender fighting with melee weapons and armor, he armors...

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April 26, 2012 2:25 PM

Xerkxes

Aww... none of my favorite classes were mentioned..
Typically, I like playing the "Mystical/magic Swordsman" style stereotype that doesn't rely on being granted power to a deity, pact patron, or anything like that.
So like 3.5 Duskblade, pathfinder Magus, or 4e Swordmage.
though, my absolute favorite was 3.5 incarnate from Magic of Incarnum, maybe with 5e's rules it won't be hard to re-impliment Incarnum into the newer Edition, might prove more effective there if magic items are...

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May 7, 2012 11:34 AM

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WotC_Bruce is now friends with compliant_screenname and 4 other people.

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Smudgius voted in the poll, "Raise Dead".

Smudgius voted in the poll, "Do you like Rob’s proposal?".

Smudgius voted in the poll, "Ease vs. Complexity".

final9 voted in the poll, "Iconic Cleric Poll".

final9 voted in the poll, "Sneak Attack".

Smudgius voted in the poll, "What is your favorite class from across the editions?".

Smudgius voted in the poll, "Holdings and followers, if used at all, should be a backdrop for the characters’ further adventures.".

Smudgius voted in the poll, "A DM should decide whether holdings and followers belong in the game.".

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