Yeah, it really feels like they're trying to wash out all 4e influence, when that isn't always good. The healing mechanics in 4e were far superior to any previous edition, and clerics being designed as glorified healing batteries that were pretty much necessary for the party to get anywhere was always bad design. Please don't revisit this mistake.
I, for once, would strongly disagree with "Let's focus back on roleplaying" opinion. I don't need rules and mechanics to roleplay. The most useless "rule" for me and mine is to let GM decide the outcome of some action. I mean, hey, I've been running games for years. I KNOW I can decide an outcome of any action, and I don't need a 40$ book to tell me that. What I want, in fact, is a system that would RELIEVE me of some of the decision making and let me focus on world-building and...
View full commentI, for once, would strongly disagree with "Let's focus back on roleplaying" opinion. I don't need rules and mechanics to roleplay. The most useless "rule" for me and mine is to let GM decide the outcome of some action. I mean, hey, I've been running games for years. I KNOW I can decide an outcome of any action, and I don't need a 40$ book to tell me that.
What I want, in fact, is a system that would RELIEVE me of some of the decision making and let me focus on world-building and story-telling, rather than trying to wind an outcome for any action the players can come up with.
If feats are gone - and I can see the disadvantage with them. There is a Pathfinder player in one of groups that is called Cheese Wiz(ard) for a reason... What will replace them? How do you distinquish your character? Themes could go a long way on that, so could class ability choices. Currently there is not enough of the game to see what this looks like. But, there needs to be a way to make a specialist fighter, a wizard that is better with some types of magic, a rogue that is better with a...
View full commentIf feats are gone - and I can see the disadvantage with them. There is a Pathfinder player in one of groups that is called Cheese Wiz(ard) for a reason... What will replace them? How do you distinquish your character? Themes could go a long way on that, so could class ability choices. Currently there is not enough of the game to see what this looks like. But, there needs to be a way to make a specialist fighter, a wizard that is better with some types of magic, a rogue that is better with a specific ability. I will be needing to make up some of these soon, as the sameness of some characters is getting old to some players. The themes that already exist offer some interesting combinations - Wizard with Healer, Fighter with Magic-User, etc. This should be continued with Non-Class abilitys that any class can take. So, a Fighter with a bit of magic could choose to get better with it. Or a Wizard Healer could get more potential Healing Items, at higher level. Of course, this looks a lot like Feats, but something is needed to fill the void.
I'm a big believer in "Getting to Yes." Present the options, all the options, to the players, and see what they latch onto. Then build a game around what they are playing. If they want to play a Tiefling, don't screw them over for wanting to play the Tiefling. Build a story that will accommodate that choice. If the player WANTS to have risks involved with the racial choice (because those risks could be a roleplaying MINE, like having to wear robes to disguise a devilish appearance), that's...
View full commentI'm a big believer in "Getting to Yes." Present the options, all the options, to the players, and see what they latch onto. Then build a game around what they are playing. If they want to play a Tiefling, don't screw them over for wanting to play the Tiefling. Build a story that will accommodate that choice. If the player WANTS to have risks involved with the racial choice (because those risks could be a roleplaying MINE, like having to wear robes to disguise a devilish appearance), that's in the DM's power to grant, but the DM shouldn't screw someone over because their idea of fun is different than the DM's. Of course, if the player becomes a problem to the group, that's an issue, but the most important role of the DM is making sure everyone can have their fun. And part of that means providing all the racial choices, "ICONIC D&D" or not.
My campaign is quasi-historical, so I'm constantly saying no to races I haven't already distorted history to accommodate. I don't care one way or another about the frequency designations, because it should vary greatly from setting to setting.
I just wanted to comment that I think this is brilliant design. It allows DMs the flexibility to allow players to be what they want to be, without having to shoe-horn in other classes, or force them to feel like they aren't able to be as successful in what they want by making them deal with cross-class skill restrictions. At the same time, you have an "easy out" as the DM by either forcing class based backgrounds and themes or iliminating them completely. Brilliant work so far, can't wait to see...
View full commentI just wanted to comment that I think this is brilliant design. It allows DMs the flexibility to allow players to be what they want to be, without having to shoe-horn in other classes, or force them to feel like they aren't able to be as successful in what they want by making them deal with cross-class skill restrictions. At the same time, you have an "easy out" as the DM by either forcing class based backgrounds and themes or iliminating them completely. Brilliant work so far, can't wait to see the finished product.
The party background concept makes my spine tingle too. I love it when my party cooperates well and have things in common. It inspired me wildly as a DM.
An entire campaign? Well assuming it starts at low-levels/heroic tier I'd probably start it off in the City of Brass, having several urban/dungeon adventures until they are prepared to survive the plane as a whole, through either spells or magic items. Then wilderness adventures get added to the mix and the adventurers can explore more distant dungeons. The exact content of the adventures might include dealing with the criminal element of the City of Brass, getting involved in Efreet politics,...
View full commentAn entire campaign? Well assuming it starts at low-levels/heroic tier I'd probably start it off in the City of Brass, having several urban/dungeon adventures until they are prepared to survive the plane as a whole, through either spells or magic items. Then wilderness adventures get added to the mix and the adventurers can explore more distant dungeons. The exact content of the adventures might include dealing with the criminal element of the City of Brass, getting involved in Efreet politics, just plain old dungeon crawling for fun and profit, monster hunting (even the mighty Efreet might run into monsters they need to call upon adventurers to defeat, alternatively they might ignore a lesser threat that plagues the non-Efreet underclass), various criminal acts for more larceny-inclined parties, and given more time I could probably go on.
I don't recall ever mentioning I'm teaching noobs, but either way when a character dies and is unable to return for any reason (story wise, not enough resources to resurrect, player wants a new character) the only option is to create a new character at a higher level than 1. If the rest of the party are paragon then a new character should be within +/-1 level of them. Level 1 PCs would be useless and die every combat at paragon tier. By only selecting the recommended options in the builder...
View full commentI don't recall ever mentioning I'm teaching noobs, but either way when a character dies and is unable to return for any reason (story wise, not enough resources to resurrect, player wants a new character) the only option is to create a new character at a higher level than 1. If the rest of the party are paragon then a new character should be within +/-1 level of them. Level 1 PCs would be useless and die every combat at paragon tier.
By only selecting the recommended options in the builder then yes it can be done in under an hour, but you'll have a bland generalised character. I have created and played dozens of 4th ed characters and my players have created over a hundred between them. Only about 4 of our combined characters have used retraining, and then no more than twice per character.
I speed read all the powers and magic items so I can quickly look at one and within a few seconds get a basic feel of it. This way I can move on to ones I actually want to read in depth. But still, creating a level 16 character takes hours as this needs to be done at every level. If you have some strategies that you use to speed up the process of creating a detailed character please share them, I'll be very interested to pass it onto my players.
We don't want to optimise every aspect, just ensure that power, feats, and items all work together to make something useful and fun. Doing this takes time as you weight up options. My players and I are not interested in a rushed character.
I am not implying that you are interested in teaching noobs, but you did mention in a previous post that the lag in time was especially when introducing a noob, and that is what I was addressing. I do actually make higher level characters after character death or when a new player joins, if I can't run them through a few solos to level them up that way anyway. I don't use the various extra options in the CB because I don't the options just in the PHB 1-3 boring or generic. I find there is...
View full commentI am not implying that you are interested in teaching noobs, but you did mention in a previous post that the lag in time was especially when introducing a noob, and that is what I was addressing. I do actually make higher level characters after character death or when a new player joins, if I can't run them through a few solos to level them up that way anyway.
I don't use the various extra options in the CB because I don't the options just in the PHB 1-3 boring or generic. I find there is more than enough just in those 3 books to keep the game going for years without getting boring at all. I do tend to add in the first Powers books as well, because some of my players wanted more options, and I had been promising to add them in, once support for every current powersource was out equally. That still doesn't add much. I do not allow Dragon Magazine content, because among other things, its not in a printed book, and that is oe requirement at my table. I have to A. Own the Source Material, and B. Approve it for play. Not all my players are DDI subscribers, and shoot, I didn't allow all the splat content in the older editions when I ran them either, going all the way back to the beginning. I was probably the very last DM in our area to okay the use of the Unearthed Arcana in 1e AD
These re excellent goals for the right kinds of players. It all depends on what your players playstyle is, and what the theme of the campaign/adventure is. My players would hunt down the orcs that run away, fearing they would bring reinforcements. Once battle is joined, its joined in their minds. They will try diplomacy at the outset, but once blood is shed, its kill them all, let the gods sort them out. Now, they have played a few battles where the goal was to save the children before they...
View full commentThese re excellent goals for the right kinds of players. It all depends on what your players playstyle is, and what the theme of the campaign/adventure is. My players would hunt down the orcs that run away, fearing they would bring reinforcements. Once battle is joined, its joined in their minds. They will try diplomacy at the outset, but once blood is shed, its kill them all, let the gods sort them out.
Now, they have played a few battles where the goal was to save the children before they were sacrificed. This is one of the ones that motivates them greatly...so sad that they didn't save the first batch of kids...but that only fueled their fire, so the next batch they were bound and determined to save, and pulled out all their healing and protective magic to do so.
They do try to keep 1 intelligent enemy alive to question, but that doesn't happen a lot. I find with my particular group of players right now, its grind combat, role play sessions, and an occasional trap or puzzle to figure out. All of which take time to go through. These guys can't buy a loaf of bread in under 30 mins. They roleplay all the haggling, detail their supplies, not just "rations for 9 people for 10 days" they lug around a wagon when above ground, and the Rogue/Bard will defend her right to her wagon with her life (Past DM trauma, seems in other groups she's played in, Pathfinder mostly, their DMs had a fondness for killing off the horses and disabling/stealing/destroying the wagons....her Husband being one of the biggest culprits...but he won't play 4e)
Anyway, yes, there are ways to speed combat up, make encounters quick but memorable, but they are dependent on the theme of the game, the style of the players, and how the dice fall as well. My guys would never, for instance, go for a 1 or 2 dice roll quick combat resolution. No matter how elegant I presented the option to save time. They are also, however, willing to put in the time and effort, and bemoan the fact we only get 4hrs play
Dear Jon, I notice there are 30 pages of material here, and, consequently, I'm going to assume this has already been addressed, however, I'd like to throw in my two cents as well: First, I just got done watching on YouTube your panel at GenCon, "The Future Look of D&D." Thank you for that panel and for the involvement of the community. I realize that the level of community involvement going into D&D Next is a huge endeavor and an added complication; but I think it has the great...
I notice there are 30 pages of material here, and, consequently, I'm going to assume this has already been addressed, however, I'd like to throw in my two cents as well:
First, I just got done watching on YouTube your panel at GenCon, "The Future Look of D&D." Thank you for that panel and for the involvement of the community. I realize that the level of community involvement going into D&D Next is a huge endeavor and an added complication; but I think it has the great potential to pay off, and pay off big - both for the company and the fans.
Second, my opinion on armor is largely similar to what you expressed in the panel: period, culturally and protectively appropriate (the last meaning that women get to wear REAL armor and not metal bikinis). That's great, and I love that direction. But, the concept art surrounding weapons concerned me. There were a lot that fell into the overly fantastical trap; they were neither functionally nor culturally appropriate. There is a certain amount of art to weaponsmithing, but it has always been more about function and NOT form. Simple, clean designs that aren't encumbering or unwieldy dominate for a reason: they're easier and faster to manufacture, especially in a time of need (a la war), and they allow greater proficiency during use. Also, though, I'd like to make sure that emphasis is placed in the culture, manufacture and design. These are three different, but related fields: what are the styles, line shapes, and minor artisanal accoutrements; what are the available materials and cultural proficiency in metallurgy (or stonework, etc.); and what type of weapons dominate due to combat and armor type (horseback, skirmish, large battlefield; chain, plate, lamellar) and what are the capabilities of their master craftsmen versus a village blacksmith. And, weight (though this is a detail issue). Almost every weapon listed in 3.5 was vastly heavier than real-world versions.
I like the idea of crossing boundaries of class as you level up but I never liked multiclassing. Sacrificing spell abilities to learn advanced fighting techniques is a great way of player choice to customise their character. It does make balancing a bit harder but if you want a warrior Mage he won't be as good as either pure class and maybe slightly weaker overall for the level but that is the choice you make. As I said in a previous post having unique game mechanics for each class is a great...
View full commentI like the idea of crossing boundaries of class as you level up but I never liked multiclassing. Sacrificing spell abilities to learn advanced fighting techniques is a great way of player choice to customise their character. It does make balancing a bit harder but if you want a warrior Mage he won't be as good as either pure class and maybe slightly weaker overall for the level but that is the choice you make. As I said in a previous post having unique game mechanics for each class is a great thing and if you can mix them up if you choose then all the better.
I like the idea of giving the Fighter some distinct sub-systems. As others have mentioned, I don't feel like basic combat actions should ever be exclusive to the fighter (disarming, tripping, charging, etc).. but truly spectacular shows of martial talent should be exclusive to the Fighter and its derivations. Stuff like tearing off the giant's arm, or executing complex attack sequences. The idea of being able to swap extra attacks for maneuvers is a particularly exciting one to me. My only...
View full commentI like the idea of giving the Fighter some distinct sub-systems. As others have mentioned, I don't feel like basic combat actions should ever be exclusive to the fighter (disarming, tripping, charging, etc).. but truly spectacular shows of martial talent should be exclusive to the Fighter and its derivations. Stuff like tearing off the giant's arm, or executing complex attack sequences. The idea of being able to swap extra attacks for maneuvers is a particularly exciting one to me.
My only concern is, I feel that Rogues and Fighters do need some overlap in their ability to target an enemy's weak points. They achieve it different ways—maybe a fighter bashes the orc in the face and stabs him in the throat, while a rogue sneaks up from behind with a knife, but either way they both aim for the soft spots. A ranger getting to exploit both methods would make them great for Commando type characters, which I like.
A sub system that lets fighters run the gamut from the dirt simple "I swing my sword and it always works" to master duelists (that can somehow apply the same skills against giant monsters) would be great, is my point. I've always wanted to play a Fighter who can fight smart, and maybe even leverage ability scores other than Strength.
I'm also greatly enjoying your investigations of earlier editions. I'm currently playing 4E, but trying to apply some of the principles of traditional D&D. For example, I don't scale encounters and run a rather open-ended sandbox campaign with no set plot (though there are plenty of events which the PCs can interact with). My game is also a bit more dangerous than by the book 4E (I use the AD&D dead at -10 rules rather than the death saving throw system). None of my players have had a PC...
I'm also greatly enjoying your investigations of earlier editions. I'm currently playing 4E, but trying to apply some of the principles of traditional D&D. For example, I don't scale encounters and run a rather open-ended sandbox campaign with no set plot (though there are plenty of events which the PCs can interact with). My game is also a bit more dangerous than by the book 4E (I use the AD&D dead at -10 rules rather than the death saving throw system). None of my players have had a PC die yet, though several have come close (and none of them have plot immunity).
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I think part of the cognitive dissonance when playing an earlier edition after playing later editions comes from the idea that PCs should be able to take on encounters directly. If you do that, then you will indeed have 2-4 deaths per 4 hour session. But smart play often centers around avoiding or circumventing encounters rather than fighting. The fact that any combat is dangerous to a low level Holmes characters means that a smart Holmes character will fight only when they absolutely must. I could easily see a game with no "fair fights" at all during the first few levels. Not all players enjoy this kind of game--they want to be able to charge forward guns blazing.
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In any case, I agree with you regarding Moldvay: it is indeed the pinacle of D&D. :-)
Very interesting, Untimately! I think a lot on that issue of survivability. I'm not sure if this ends up being a style of play issue or how central it is to an edition's feel. If PCs could easily survive level 1 in AD&D, but it got harder after that, would the game be fundamentally different? Did so many groups start at level 3 or higher just to "get past that" as a friend said to me recently? At the same time, I love that exploration and out-of-the-box thinking. But is low survivability a...
View full commentVery interesting, Untimately! I think a lot on that issue of survivability. I'm not sure if this ends up being a style of play issue or how central it is to an edition's feel. If PCs could easily survive level 1 in AD&D, but it got harder after that, would the game be fundamentally different? Did so many groups start at level 3 or higher just to "get past that" as a friend said to me recently? At the same time, I love that exploration and out-of-the-box thinking. But is low survivability a critical part of that, or can we move that to other areas (such as encounter design regardless of survivability)?
As for the pictures. Both pictures are of a Dwarf posing. The picture labeled with Elf, merely depicts a Dwarf posing with his left foot on the crumpled remains of an Elf.
In creating D&D Next, a big question will be what to do with 4E's fantastic encounter design, which rests atop a layer of crunch that is very 4E-centric. If we want a more open play style, must we abandon 4E's innovation? To play AD&D style, will we need to leave behind those advances? You may not remember this, but some time last year I we talked about this a bit. I love the encounter creation method for 4e, it makes it easy on the DM to create an appropriately scaled challenge....
View full commentIn creating D&D Next, a big question will be what to do with 4E's fantastic encounter design, which rests atop a layer of crunch that is very 4E-centric. If we want a more open play style, must we abandon 4E's innovation? To play AD&D style, will we need to leave behind those advances?
You may not remember this, but some time last year I we talked about this a bit. I love the encounter creation method for 4e, it makes it easy on the DM to create an appropriately scaled challenge. However, I don't think that all encounters should be created this way, appropriately scaled that is. 4e Characters have the tools to identify the threat level of the monsters they face. My player often chose not to use those tools, because they knew that the DMG insisted that all encounters be level appropriate, or close. It took me a long time to disabuse my players of this notion. Even after telling them straight out, that I wasn't running the game that way. We were playing a Sandbox game, I mean, after all, isn't Dark Sun just a giant sandbox anyway? but I digress. I didn't do random monsters (much) but I did do random levels for building encounters. Though the random roll had a bell curve putting the majority of encounters close to their level. Some encounters were easy some, not so much. However, my players started checking before they ran in blindly, and that was what I wanted, for them to stop, evaluate the threat, the decide if they thought they could take out that threat or if they should run or hide. Not, running in blindly with the assumption that they were going to win, because I was playing nice like the rule book said. If they failed their monster knowledge check, I lied, randomly re-rolling on the encounter chart and then giving out information as if they were fighting a threat of that level, which always made the evil DM in me smile.
I'm not sure this approach would work for linear adventures though. Hopefully they can come up with an easy to use system that has some randomness to it. Keep things uncertain.