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1 year ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 6:14PM #1
Chosenjedi
Date Joined: Dec 18, 2010
Posts: 575
I'm making a new character, and I was wondering what I should make.
Most of the players are first timers, and most made power-gaming nuts.
Only three guys didn't (Mon Cal, Human, and Twi'lek) . We have six players.
We have a Wookiee melee/rage focused, Nevellen stealth/melee focused. Human dual-weapon/DR focused. Twi'lek Sniper. And Mon Cal Bomb/grenade
nut.
I was the Human force wizard.
And the game is set in the clone wars.
So:
A. What character do I make to fit in, and fill the holes.
B. How do make them (the other players) non-combat focused.
C. And how do I make them non-build focused.
Come, you hounds of the dark! Come to your deaths! Hurl your power at me! I deny you! I defy you! I am a Knight of the Empire, and I am your doom!"
―Draco, while battling a legion of Sith on Korriban

"You dare interrupt me! Only I interrupt me! Like just then. I'm speaking with someone! We'll talk later. Or not. When is later, exactly? Not now, I'm sure of that."
—Sheogorath, The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

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1 year ago  ::  Mar 22, 2012 - 9:43PM #2
StevenO
Date Joined: Apr 9, 2004
Posts: 14,077
I'd like to see more information.  Most notably level and basic deviations from a "standard" game.  At lower levels "power gaming nuts" (as I understand them) are going to want to focus more attention to their specialities before moving on to other things.  At higher levels I definitely believe it is possible to take a concept too far but still do believe in a degree of optimization.  Amazing ability scores also can lead to characters that are far too good at certain things.

While I don't really know much about the builds I see you have:
1.  Melee Wookie.  I assume he's almost pure Soldier and trys very hard to abuse an amazing STR score.

2.  Nevellen Stealth/Melee.  A Primitive character isn't something you often see.  I'd asume it starts in Scout but may move into Soldier for more melee.  This is actually a character build I'd like to see because it doesn't strike me as being overly optimized unlike a STR based Wookie.

3.  Dual Wielding (pistols?) Human.  Don't know what's up with a "DR focus" because dual wielding and Damage Reduction aren't things I see going hand in hand.

4.  Twi'lek Sniper.  I'd assume a CT-Killer style build for this.  It can have the CT-Killer base but still have room for some adjustment.

5.  Mon Cal bomb/grenade nut.  I'm not sure what to make of this.  There are several builds I could see that utilize fighting with area affect weapons.

Now the "holes" I see are no "healer" although you should have people who can train Treat Injury, no party buffer/booster, and no Force User.  Personally, I think I'd go with some kind of Jedi Consular style build (start in Noble before multiclassing into Jedi) who can hand some of the skills you may be missing and also provide some Forceful backup.

As for making the others focus less on combat and less on their character builds  I'm afraid there aren't any good answers.  It will come down to play style/campaign to see if the group can handle situations where fighting isn't the best option and to see if they've generalized enough to handle encounters they weren't built for.

I don't make a secret about it but when I make "builds" for people I tend to be very general and leave lost of blanks for the player to fill in so that they can generalize a bit and "go with it" when the final reach those levels where I've left holes.  My own characters usually can do a couple things and I really prefer character who could act relatively independently for a while if needed.
 
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 8:51AM #3
Chosenjedi
Date Joined: Dec 18, 2010
Posts: 575
Yeah, they have pretty good ability scores. 

1. Well, he has 20 for Str, so he isn't to high on that. 16 for Dex. 12 or some thing for Con. 11 for Int. 11 for Wis. 10 for Cha.
He is a little bit of Soldier, Scoundrel, and Scout. When he first started out he wanted to just be fast. But now he is going for melee, mostly because he can do a lot of damage with it.

2. This doesn't seem like a power-gamer, but the guy who made the wookiee helped with it, so he got a little wild. The guy who made the wookiee is a BIG ninja fan. So he likes stealth and a lot of damage on top of it. Oh, and this guy is a force user.

3. A matukai with a Wan' Shean. (Not a power-gamer). He has things like: Soft to Solid, and DR 10. He works very well though. Force user.

4.  OK, yeah a CT killer. He isn't a power-gamer because the GM help with this build.

5. He isn't a power gamer. He has a grenade launcher, and LOTS of grenades. And he gets some detonite, and some talents to help him place a bomb. Oh, and he is a pretty good slicer too.



Yeah, we don't have a healer. The Mon Cal is trained in Treat Injury though. 
Well as I have just played  force user, I don't know if I want to play one again. I'm not saying I don't, just asking if you have any ideas for a non-force user.

 What I mean is that they don't focus on their character, only on their builds. If they were going to explain who their guy is, they would say:
Wookiee with 20 for Str, and can hit really good, and has a gun-blade.
Nevelian who is really stealthy, and has a power hammer.
And so on. 
They just don't have any depth, their all 2-D.
Thanks. 
Come, you hounds of the dark! Come to your deaths! Hurl your power at me! I deny you! I defy you! I am a Knight of the Empire, and I am your doom!"
―Draco, while battling a legion of Sith on Korriban

"You dare interrupt me! Only I interrupt me! Like just then. I'm speaking with someone! We'll talk later. Or not. When is later, exactly? Not now, I'm sure of that."
—Sheogorath, The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

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1 year ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 10:24AM #4
StevenO
Date Joined: Apr 9, 2004
Posts: 14,077
Now I see the "problem" with character focus.  People are just looking at the "character" as a bunch of numbers and describing it as such.  While I can find that helpful in certain circumstances is doesn't do a good job of telling me about the character or what may happen in the future.  An example of that is when someone says they are playing a Soldier7 or Scout3/Soldier4 because those give me a very vague idea about the character's mechanics but don't tell me anything about the "character" presented.

A few comments on the expanded character descriptions:
1.  STR 20 and DEX 16 are VERY high assuming a 1st-level character and still high at later levels.  I'm a bit touchy about stats but with what you've layed out the starting array would be 16,18,10,11,13,12 which equates to PB 40 which is well above what I consider standard.  If this is an 8th-level character who's put +2 into STR and DEX that value comes down a lot but I still consider PB 30 to be a little higher then standard.

I normally put a good STR score on Wookies (if you don't why would you play a wookie?) which gives them good melee my default but having levels in Scout and Scoundrel diminish some of the character's offensive potential.

2.  Still a bit unusual but probably not overly optimized.
3.  Oh!  An alternative style force user.  I'm not sure a double weapon is a great thing but that character should have some interesting uses.

4.  Twi'lek isn't the optimum choice for a CT-Killer but isn't a bad choice.  Depending on other choices made it could have other options.

5.  So this is what could be called the support guy.  I'd hope he takes Surgical Expertise if he's already trained in Treat Injury and that would make him a pretty good "fixer" of bodily injury as well as mechanical things.

Well, this group should be able to cover many things.  To me the hole may a pilot and a heavy weapon specialist.  Although I could have made him human I've done up a Duro pilot who's untilizes a repeating blaster (with Burst fire and power generator) when on the ground; he doubles as the tech but if you already have one he wouldn't need to go too far in that direction.
            
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 23, 2012 - 2:15PM #5
Jayim_Duinara
Date Joined: Mar 15, 2012
Posts: 12
Hello,

Please forgive my ignorance, as I have not played a game as of yet, but... I would think the best way to bring non-combat skills to their attention, would be to present them with a plethora of non-combat obstacles and challanges. Obviously, if they are really geared toward combat, you need to provide them with enough for them to have fun. However, you should be able to force them into some semblance of balance with the way you present the world to them. Give them the combat they want. And a whole host of other problems that it doesn't solve. =)

As for how to bring attention to character personalization, that's going to be quite a bit more tricky. Leading by example seems to work in many areas of life. Give your character such a vibrant personality and past that the others get sucked in and have to come up with background of their own? Just ask them about their characters' personality. How did they become a soldier/scout/scoundrel? Who trained them? Where? Who is their family? Where do they live? Of those who aren't force users, what is their opinion of force users? This is the clone wars, do they have any sympathy for the separatist cause? Do they have any friends that sided with them?

This is role playing, have your character ask their character these questions. Whether they reply in-character or out-of-character doesn't matter; they'll have to come up with something.

I'm sorry, that's the best advice I can give,
Jayim
Real love is not based on feelings; it is a commitment of your will to the true good of the other person.
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 27, 2012 - 12:28PM #6
Chosenjedi
Date Joined: Dec 18, 2010
Posts: 575

Mar 23, 2012 -- 2:15PM, Jayim_Duinara wrote:

Hello,

Please forgive my ignorance, as I have not played a game as of yet, but... I would think the best way to bring non-combat skills to their attention, would be to present them with a plethora of non-combat obstacles and challanges. Obviously, if they are really geared toward combat, you need to provide them with enough for them to have fun. However, you should be able to force them into some semblance of balance with the way you present the world to them. Give them the combat they want. And a whole host of other problems that it doesn't solve. =)





YES! 
I had a talk with my GM a day or two ago, and this is what he came up with.
I think if my GM does it so that the problems can't be solved by blaster or strength, then we might have some fun.
This is exactly what I was thinking.
Thanks
 

Come, you hounds of the dark! Come to your deaths! Hurl your power at me! I deny you! I defy you! I am a Knight of the Empire, and I am your doom!"
―Draco, while battling a legion of Sith on Korriban

"You dare interrupt me! Only I interrupt me! Like just then. I'm speaking with someone! We'll talk later. Or not. When is later, exactly? Not now, I'm sure of that."
—Sheogorath, The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

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1 year ago  ::  Mar 27, 2012 - 12:33PM #7
Chosenjedi
Date Joined: Dec 18, 2010
Posts: 575

Mar 23, 2012 -- 10:24AM, StevenO wrote:

Now I see the "problem" with character focus.  People are just looking at the "character" as a bunch of numbers and describing it as such.  While I can find that helpful in certain circumstances is doesn't do a good job of telling me about the character or what may happen in the future.  An example of that is when someone says they are playing a Soldier7 or Scout3/Soldier4 because those give me a very vague idea about the character's mechanics but don't tell me anything about the "character" presented.


            





Well, most of them just play their character like they are playing a video game. They don't look at their characters, as well, a character, they just look at the stats and such.
They don't have much of a personality. They are all very 2-D. 

Come, you hounds of the dark! Come to your deaths! Hurl your power at me! I deny you! I defy you! I am a Knight of the Empire, and I am your doom!"
―Draco, while battling a legion of Sith on Korriban

"You dare interrupt me! Only I interrupt me! Like just then. I'm speaking with someone! We'll talk later. Or not. When is later, exactly? Not now, I'm sure of that."
—Sheogorath, The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

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1 year ago  ::  Mar 27, 2012 - 12:53PM #8
Chosenjedi
Date Joined: Dec 18, 2010
Posts: 575
Ok, this is what I came up with.

 
 

Small 2nd degree Droid
Scoundrel 3/ Independent Droid 4/ Saboteur 1

Str 14         HP: 92    Speed: 8    Ref: 28  Fort: 23  Will: 24
Dex 18
Int 24
Wis 13
Cha 10

Skills: Deception, Gather Information, Initiative, Knowledge (Technology, Physical Science), Mechanics, Perception, Persuasion, Pilot, Stealth, Use Computer,

Talents: Trace, Security Slicer, Repair self, Ion Resistance 10, Computer Master, Device Jammer,

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Weapon Pro (Rifles, Pistols, Simple), Skill Focus (Perception, Mechanics, Pilot, Use Computer), Recall, Scavenger, Combat Reflexes,  Improved Defenses, Far Shot, Quick Draw, Vehicular Combat, Droid Craft,

Equipment: Double barreled Carbine (Range finder), Micro Grenade Launcher (Dual Geared with DBCarbine), Tool Kit, Fire Extinguisher, Electrobinoculars, Video-recorder, comlink (Long Range), Visual Wrist comm, 10 Blank Data Cards,

Systems: Hovering Locomotion, Flying Locomotion, Internal Comlink, Diagnostic Package, Compartment Space, Locked Access, Secondary Battery, Improved Sensor Package, Dark-vision, Shield Generator (SR 20), Translator Unit (DC 5), Telescopic Appendage,


Thats pretty much him.
If you need a back story I can post that too. 
Come, you hounds of the dark! Come to your deaths! Hurl your power at me! I deny you! I defy you! I am a Knight of the Empire, and I am your doom!"
―Draco, while battling a legion of Sith on Korriban

"You dare interrupt me! Only I interrupt me! Like just then. I'm speaking with someone! We'll talk later. Or not. When is later, exactly? Not now, I'm sure of that."
—Sheogorath, The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

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1 year ago  ::  Mar 27, 2012 - 1:07PM #9
Chosenjedi
Date Joined: Dec 18, 2010
Posts: 575

Mar 23, 2012 -- 2:15PM, Jayim_Duinara wrote:


As for how to bring attention to character personalization, that's going to be quite a bit more tricky. Leading by example seems to work in many areas of life. Give your character such a vibrant personality and past that the others get sucked in and have to come up with background of their own? Just ask them about their characters' personality. How did they become a soldier/scout/scoundrel? Who trained them? Where? Who is their family? Where do they live? Of those who aren't force users, what is their opinion of force users? This is the clone wars, do they have any sympathy for the separatist cause? Do they have any friends that sided with them?

This is role playing, have your character ask their character these questions. Whether they reply in-character or out-of-character doesn't matter; they'll have to come up with something.




Hmmmm, sounds good. Sounds very good.
I'll give it a try.
Just one thing, how would you play a droid. This is the first time I have every played one. So, do you have any ideas?  

Come, you hounds of the dark! Come to your deaths! Hurl your power at me! I deny you! I defy you! I am a Knight of the Empire, and I am your doom!"
―Draco, while battling a legion of Sith on Korriban

"You dare interrupt me! Only I interrupt me! Like just then. I'm speaking with someone! We'll talk later. Or not. When is later, exactly? Not now, I'm sure of that."
—Sheogorath, The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

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1 year ago  ::  Mar 27, 2012 - 1:41PM #10
StevenO
Date Joined: Apr 9, 2004
Posts: 14,077

Mar 27, 2012 -- 12:53PM, Chosenjedi wrote:

Ok, this is what I came up with.

Small 2nd degree Droid
Scoundrel 3/ Independent Droid 4/ Saboteur 1

Str 14         HP: 92    Speed: 8    Ref: 28  Fort: 23  Will: 24
Dex 18
Int 24
Wis 13
Cha 10
...
Talents: Trace, Security Slicer, Repair self, Ion Resistance 10, Computer Master, Device Jammer,
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Weapon Pro (Rifles, Pistols, Simple), Skill Focus (Perception, Mechanics, Pilot, Use Computer), Recall, Scavenger, Combat Reflexes,  Improved Defenses, Far Shot, Quick Draw, Vehicular Combat, Droid Craft,
... 


  Those stats are INSANE!  What generation method and modifiers were use?  If I look at that as a small custom 2nd-degree droid from the SECR (-2 STR/CHA, +2 DEX/INT) and still put +2 in the two most expensive stats I'm still seeing a starting array of 15,15,20,13,12 which equates to PB 49 on a droid; that's more than twice as many points as I'd let a droid start with.  Those stats jade everything else I see when I look at that droid.

There is so much more I question about that monster.  I count 13 non-starting feats when a Scoundrel3/ID4/Sab1 would only have FOUR so I don't know where to start there.  I count six talents when I only see space for five so there is another error.  Maybe I'm missing SEVERAL things but that character also has way too many hitpoints; With 92 listed after I take out 18 for starting in Scoundrel that leave 72 hitpoints to go over 7 levels for an AVERAGE of 10+ hitpoint per level which is too much for 2d6+4d12+1d8 which SHOULD only provide 48 hit points so it's off about 24 hitpoints.

Now if I move on to equipment I see a few things I wonder about.  Why bother listing hovering and flying as movement systems when flying already covers all of hovering?  You should read the TEXT about droid Shield generators (SECR 197) where you'd see that a small droid is limited to a SR 10 generator which can be useful but isn't nearly the immunity to attacks that SR 20 often provides.  You also list a telescoping appendage but what is it?  You don't list ANY appendage types where I believe you should have a least one tool mount for that weapon and it would seem to me like he should have some hands for other things.

Now overall I think the CONCEPT may be good and can see a small repair droid going the sabouter route but I believe the execution is broken in so many places.  I could see this as an interesting "tech" for the group.

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