What level is your playtest? Up to level 5, things are very well balanced. It is passed level 5 that things start to shift. By level 10 the imbalance is in full swing. By level 20, there is just no comparison. At some point in time passed level 5, you are better off having another wizard instead of a fighter. With spells the wizard can become just as survivable as the fighter. Its single DPR per day can outpace almost any fighter build. The only way the fighter can compete is if it has riposte...
View full commentWhat level is your playtest? Up to level 5, things are very well balanced. It is passed level 5 that things start to shift. By level 10 the imbalance is in full swing. By level 20, there is just no comparison. At some point in time passed level 5, you are better off having another wizard instead of a fighter. With spells the wizard can become just as survivable as the fighter. Its single DPR per day can outpace almost any fighter build. The only way the fighter can compete is if it has riposte and a d12 weapon, and even then, only if foes make a point of attacking the fighter with melee weapons. Its total damage dealt (taking number of targets hit with AoE spells) blows a fighter's out of the water. And, it has the sort of combat utility a fighter can only dream of.
If you guys are playing before level 5, then I can understand why you feel this way. Especially because, in some of the older playtest packets, fighter's were actually a little overpowered. But, this last playtest packet made a number of changes that seriously changed that. It dropped fighter damage, reduced the effectivity of parry, upped spellcaster cantrip damage, and didn't fix the egregiously broken spells in the game (which have existed for about 2 packets of play now). As a result, wizard's are now the clear winner (in terms of mechanical effectivity) when it comes to ANY area of the game's mechanics post level 5. At level 5 the difference is slight enough that it might go unnoticed for a few more levels (though, running the math, it already exists). By level 10 it will be very palatable to anyone with a distaste for such things. By level 20, there is just no comparison. Casters and Caddies is in full swing by that point in time...
My barbarian player complains about not getting double attacks (except those from her urgrosh and Cleave), but his damage is pretty well balanced with that of the fighter. The Volley may need a little tweaking, but Whirlwind Attack seems powerful enough. Orienteering and social niceties aside, though, the professional soldier/warrior aspect of the class could use more flexibility than is reflected in the present option-hampering choices of Superior Defense, Death Dealer, Unerring Attacker and...
View full commentMy barbarian player complains about not getting double attacks (except those from her urgrosh and Cleave), but his damage is pretty well balanced with that of the fighter. The Volley may need a little tweaking, but Whirlwind Attack seems powerful enough. Orienteering and social niceties aside, though, the professional soldier/warrior aspect of the class could use more flexibility than is reflected in the present option-hampering choices of Superior Defense, Death Dealer, Unerring Attacker and Unstoppable class features.
Then limit your choices. Its detailed out to give multiple options for multiple levels of detail and play experience. You know or your players know how much they can handle. The game isn't being designed just for you. Its being designed for everyone. You need to pick a level of detail provided to build your capable level of game detail. Its about options as little or as much as you can handle. You then pick a level of gameplay mechanics you can handle. Its up to you. Wizards is defining the...
View full commentThen limit your choices. Its detailed out to give multiple options for multiple levels of detail and play experience. You know or your players know how much they can handle. The game isn't being designed just for you. Its being designed for everyone. You need to pick a level of detail provided to build your capable level of game detail. Its about options as little or as much as you can handle. You then pick a level of gameplay mechanics you can handle. Its up to you. Wizards is defining the options you pick...simple.
Valkrim certainly knows how to drive a point home! I'm replying to this comment so people who are interested in my discussion with D17 and Valkrim can tell that it starts on the other side of Pyrate Jib's comment. Mike Mearls' example of the "fears, goals, mannerisms," and other NPC Interaction Traits meriting, according to Rodney Thompson, their own information block, is not couched in terms of options or the Standard game. Thus, my reply to Valkrim begins with the assertion that to so...
View full commentValkrim certainly knows how to drive a point home! I'm replying to this comment so people who are interested in my discussion with D17 and Valkrim can tell that it starts on the other side of Pyrate Jib's comment.
Mike Mearls' example of the "fears, goals, mannerisms," and other NPC Interaction Traits meriting, according to Rodney Thompson, their own information block, is not couched in terms of options or the Standard game. Thus, my reply to Valkrim begins with the assertion that to so constrain the description of creatures' personality locks us into a mode of thinking about PC influence on NPCs which may turn out to be undesirable in the future. My example doesn't cite any optional features of monsters, and very few commenters have expressed a willingness to play without feats. Backgrounds may be optional, and Specialties may no longer exist, but the Proficiencies and Areas of Knowledge conferred by Backgrounds are apparently indispensible. Furthermore, we have to find some way to layer Subclasses into this amalgam. Thus others who share my disapproval of this approach have been critical of having so many redundant contributions to character creation, and I am likewise raising the alarm about overdefinition of personality traits to avoid leading the game into a similar trap of unnecessary complexity. What about pranksters, for example? Player character pranksters abound in D & D, and this paradigm says nothing about how an NPC would react to having such folly foisted upon h/h, even if the NPC were an inveterate prankster h/hself. That is why I say that, following the principles which Mike Mearls himself outlines above, one carrot and one stick are plenty.
1) is encouraging. Though we've yet to see any sign of how 5e's modularity may actually be implemented, this at least suggests the possibility of a Fuzion-style 'dial.'
Enjoying the playtest packet a great. Gives me just enough to play the way I want to play. Looking forward to seeing what else you come up with. I actually DO like the skill dice mechanic a lot, so a bit sad it might be going away, but I'm going to trust the alternatives will be just as interesting. Thanks for bringing in bits & pieces of the past, and reinterpreting the system with a more modern feel.
Sir Corin's got a point, there's a character in my group doing just what he says and the guy isn't greased up, just punching a lot. They're likely to beef up such feats, which would bring him onto par with the barbarian in the party, so I'm not sure Sir Corin's reservations aren't misplaced. Sorry about the triple negative. I appreciate Clan Battlerage clarifying h/h view of how maneuvers could work like powers. I think maneuvers have to be defined a lot more specifically to make their...
View full commentSir Corin's got a point, there's a character in my group doing just what he says and the guy isn't greased up, just punching a lot. They're likely to beef up such feats, which would bring him onto par with the barbarian in the party, so I'm not sure Sir Corin's reservations aren't misplaced. Sorry about the triple negative.
I appreciate Clan Battlerage clarifying h/h view of how maneuvers could work like powers. I think maneuvers have to be defined a lot more specifically to make their tactical implications more than move and damage, but it is good that somebody is still talking about maneuvers. I think they have the potential to provide many characters with interesting and believable combat options, and contribute to the identity of several martial classes.
My final observation is that in contrast to the binary Fourth Edition definition of "build," Fifth Edition subclasses as described offer a multitude of choices. In addition to having more than 2 basic subclasses (although I hope every class will have at least one subclass which is basic enough to suit mechanical purists), it appears that the class, itself or through additional choices within subclasses, will present options for varying what and how characters do things.
Wow, I really like the part about DMs working with players to create their own subclasses that fit for their campaign and story. I also like the part about subclasses focusing on fluff and background, thus, the are things like Knight and not Defender (defender/slayer can be dealt with through feat and expertise dice maneuver selections). I like where subclasses are going!
4E edition was very Controller based, like confusing, slowing, stunning, dominating enemies and even going as far as scrambling their positions on the battlefield. The 4E Psion is a perfect example of how they are not the Wizard, even though they are both Controllers, and with augments (similar things already in the packet) I think they could easily stand on their own. Subroles could be Telepath, Kenetic, Shaper and maybe even Psychic Warrior, to roll them into a single class.
The conventional pantheons are strongly influenced by the cotemporal expanse of the Far Realm which led to the stratification of the Outer Planes. Events in the nonlinear region are essentially fixed and it is convenient to think of them as causative to the Cataclysm out of which the demihuman races (and yugoloths) arose. Though seemingly made over into our own, however, the same universe still exists in which the celesternals are not divided between angels and devils, and persist in their...
View full commentThe conventional pantheons are strongly influenced by the cotemporal expanse of the Far Realm which led to the stratification of the Outer Planes. Events in the nonlinear region are essentially fixed and it is convenient to think of them as causative to the Cataclysm out of which the demihuman races (and yugoloths) arose. Though seemingly made over into our own, however, the same universe still exists in which the celesternals are not divided between angels and devils, and persist in their persecution of the demons, the giants have never ceased to rule over the apians within the spheres of light, the wildmen still contribute to the prosperity of the empires of the mind seekers, and the lesser abominations continue to dominate the gobbels. (The hermetic protoillithids are dismayed by their mind flayer descendants' decline into the subjugation of inferior servitors.) Fractured realities also exist in which the primary conflict is between Law and Chaos, for example, or the kingdoms of the giants coexist in peace with those of humanoids.
The three species of precosmological protohumans are related, though not closely, to the humanoid races. The several breeds of orcs are descendants of apians and an intermediate race between wildmen and humans, the cavemen. The interaction of wildmen and cavemen with gobbels led to the origins of dwarves, troglodytes, and also other protohuman races which diverged into bestial monstrous humanoids such as minotaurs and gnolls. Goblinoids and kuo-toa are the proud descendants of those gobbels whose bloodline was not sullied. Elves and sahuaguin claim similarly pure descent from the giants' apian slaves. The apians also crossbred with gobbels, producing another protohuman ancestor race, olbitlans, which rehybridized with apians to create halflings, and gobbels to produce gnomes. In most cases, humanoids related through a hybrid race can interbreed, but these small races are difficult to crossbreed.
Similarities in appearance and behavior have led to the existence of confusion among the original protohumans, humans, and contemporary protohumans such as gith and fey. Besides humans and mermen, shadar-kai, githyanki and githzerai are all descendants of wildmen, who were initially adopted by their protoillithid patrons because they demonstrated admirable loyalty to the group. Fey have both apian and wildmen blood and were shaped by their exposure to elemental forces, whereas the disobedient...
View full commentSimilarities in appearance and behavior have led to the existence of confusion among the original protohumans, humans, and contemporary protohumans such as gith and fey. Besides humans and mermen, shadar-kai, githyanki and githzerai are all descendants of wildmen, who were initially adopted by their protoillithid patrons because they demonstrated admirable loyalty to the group. Fey have both apian and wildmen blood and were shaped by their exposure to elemental forces, whereas the disobedient wildmen who hid from their masters in the planes of Shadow, long before the treachery of Gith, eventually became the shadar-kai.
Sounds like you are talking about a (especially lethal) version of D&D as an exploration (I prefer that to simulation) rather than as a story. Story has been really big for a couple of decades, and many people have forgotten how fun it can be to simply project a character into an imaginary world to explore, and make your own stories based on interaction with it, rather than necessarily assuming plot is going to be handed to you. I'm not a proponent of forcing that style of play, or that...
View full commentSounds like you are talking about a (especially lethal) version of D&D as an exploration (I prefer that to simulation) rather than as a story. Story has been really big for a couple of decades, and many people have forgotten how fun it can be to simply project a character into an imaginary world to explore, and make your own stories based on interaction with it, rather than necessarily assuming plot is going to be handed to you.
I'm not a proponent of forcing that style of play, or that it's fun for everyone, and I enjoy a good mix, but I do think it's something more people ought to give a try to.
Right now I'm trying to get my friend to DM the Mines of Madness for us, because I'm in the mood for a bit of that feel.
I'd DM it myself, but I want to "explore" the mines without knowing what is going to happen, and see if I can pull out my dungeon survival skills. Of course, it's important for anyone who's looking for this type of game not to have a character concept they get attached to. Those work better in more story-driven scenarios.
View full commentI'd DM it myself, but I want to "explore" the mines without knowing what is going to happen, and see if I can pull out my dungeon survival skills.
Of course, it's important for anyone who's looking for this type of game not to have a character concept they get attached to. Those work better in more story-driven scenarios.
Here is a new idea for high level characters because they do not get additional feats--give them feat swapping. That is, at higher levels you gain feats as normal, but for any given adventure/session you can only slot so many feat choices. That way a fighter could really practice his old tricks and start using them again if needed, and the wizard could prepare the ability to perform other, more archaic tricks. This gives the characters additional flexibility and planning possibilities for...
View full commentHere is a new idea for high level characters because they do not get additional feats--give them feat swapping. That is, at higher levels you gain feats as normal, but for any given adventure/session you can only slot so many feat choices. That way a fighter could really practice his old tricks and start using them again if needed, and the wizard could prepare the ability to perform other, more archaic tricks. This gives the characters additional flexibility and planning possibilities for high-level, and keeps the characters interesting. I wouldn't make it cost money or anything unless there is a more advanced mechanic developed such as spending experience points to gain abilities, which I doubt will be added to DnDNext (although I personally believe that's what should be done).
The argument would be that, the assumption of bounded accuracy is that a magic item will help a character, but it should not be necessary to defeat a monster. A +1 to hit and damage will not be the tipping point, nor would a similar bonus to AC, etc. In 4e, at higher levels you need magic items to keep up. The idea is to allow for low to high magic campaigns fit in the same system. Also, having the character be about his race, class, etc first, and his magic items are a nice addition, not a key...
View full commentThe argument would be that, the assumption of bounded accuracy is that a magic item will help a character, but it should not be necessary to defeat a monster. A +1 to hit and damage will not be the tipping point, nor would a similar bonus to AC, etc. In 4e, at higher levels you need magic items to keep up. The idea is to allow for low to high magic campaigns fit in the same system. Also, having the character be about his race, class, etc first, and his magic items are a nice addition, not a key component.
Pondering the direction of skills. I asked myself what skills would I say I possessed in my life. Sadly, I can only think of two exemplary (Carpentry and Performance - day job vs. aspiring actor). My conclusion is this: *Skills are vague in most cases - Looking at Perform (not a listed SKILL in this iteration as yet), obviously there are many types of performance (Dance, Oration, Acting, Painting, Sculpting, etc.). So it seems to me that a general Skill (ARTISTRY) can represent a sub-skill...
View full commentPondering the direction of skills. I asked myself what skills would I say I possessed in my life. Sadly, I can only think of two exemplary (Carpentry and Performance - day job vs. aspiring actor). My conclusion is this:
*Skills are vague in most cases - Looking at Perform (not a listed SKILL in this iteration as yet), obviously there are many types of performance (Dance, Oration, Acting, Painting, Sculpting, etc.). So it seems to me that a general Skill (ARTISTRY) can represent a sub-skill or several.
*Skills can vary with type of game - DRIVE, for instance isn't necessarily a useful skill for a fantasy game where most vehicles are animal powered. Handle Animal you say? As would I, but, should Handle Animal be generalized to all animals? Can a horse trainer equally be a lion tamer? I say no. But, If we generalize Handle Animal and produce sub-skills therein (Horses, Lions, Dogs, etc.), we can say that a skill an be flexible contingent on another factor. What might that be? See below.
*Advancement - Should a character that makes little use of a certain skill advance the same as one who makes greater use? IMO, no. How do we progress then? This is where we are with our playtesting.
SUMMERY:
*Skills should be an optional, but in the basic package.
*The list should include general/specific skills (under different game types - fantasy, sci-fy, dark age, etc.) The ability score to represent should be flexible depending on the group (i.e. - Climb might be Str or Dex based or average of both).
*A skill that can be broken down into sub-skills can be adjudicated by ability score modifiers. Handle Animal (potentially based out of Cha) might cover one or more animal types based on modifier.
*Base Modifier - IMO the Skill Die works.
*Advancement - Feat based. All start with their (four?) skills (which may have subs, broadening variety) and beginning level Skill Die (d8?). Buy Skill advancement with feats - die increase, specialist, etc.)
Umm, in my last session my level one party encountered a band of orcs. I went through both my magic missile spells, one of them empowered to do maximum damage, and I only killed one Orc. Granted, my first casting was split my missile between three different orcs (as they all were already damaged by a fire trap) but didn't kill a single one despite the fact that they were each already hurt. My second cast used my daily feat to empower them and two missiles hit one Orc and killed him, and one...
View full commentUmm, in my last session my level one party encountered a band of orcs. I went through both my magic missile spells, one of them empowered to do maximum damage, and I only killed one Orc. Granted, my first casting was split my missile between three different orcs (as they all were already damaged by a fire trap) but didn't kill a single one despite the fact that they were each already hurt. My second cast used my daily feat to empower them and two missiles hit one Orc and killed him, and one missile hit another Orc, and he still survived. After a short rest, I have one first level spell back, the fighter and rogue in the party have not lost any ability to do anything. This was just a random encounter on our way to a town (it was one Orc per party member) and it was our first encounter for the adventuring day. So I don't want to hear any nonsense about the uber power of magic missiles over other classes. Thank you.
Also, not a complaint, I am having fun playing my wizard, at least so far.
Maybe what they should do is have "classic" advancement, which is more of what we are used to and then "official advancement" for use in dnd encounters and living campaigns, as i suspect that's what is behind this move any way. Then people can chose. That could work but it involves not singling out the fast track approach as the default or "right" way to play. I know this for sure, it will fail miserable in its goal of attracting old school players back into the fold if they read that the...
View full commentMaybe what they should do is have "classic" advancement, which is more of what we are used to and then "official advancement" for use in dnd encounters and living campaigns, as i suspect that's what is behind this move any way. Then people can chose. That could work but it involves not singling out the fast track approach as the default or "right" way to play.
I know this for sure, it will fail miserable in its goal of attracting old school players back into the fold if they read that the default game is level every other session as it suggests the game was designed to again he something comlpleatly foreign to what they grew up with. As I said, I myself have been in games that house ruled quicker leveling tracks, and they were fun. But to define DnD as that kind of play won't go over well in winning people back.
Like: Managing dead level by making not so dead. I believe there are multiple ways in the standard version to ensure a character get more than HP increase at a level up. Maybe in the simpler version this is more an issue, but it comes with the reduced system. Maybe you could think of a way to reduce the levels instead. A level 5 in the simple version could be equivalent to a level 10 in the standard version. Like: Simpler spells. If a spell would create a fog, everyone would expect the fog...
View full commentLike: Managing dead level by making not so dead. I believe there are multiple ways in the standard version to ensure a character get more than HP increase at a level up. Maybe in the simpler version this is more an issue, but it comes with the reduced system. Maybe you could think of a way to reduce the levels instead. A level 5 in the simple version could be equivalent to a level 10 in the standard version.
Like: Simpler spells. If a spell would create a fog, everyone would expect the fog to hinder everyones' vision. If not, then it is a magical fog who can identify allies of the caster, or that lets the caster choose who can see through it. The basic fog version seems more appropriate. I believe magic should reproduce effects of the world. A fireball burns everything and everyone, not only the ennemies. Higher level spells, or more adept casters could eventually be able to circumvent some drawbacks, with feats and abilities for example.
Dislike: Complexity being an issue. I understand that a lot of people did not play D&D because it is complex. But there are a lot of them who like and want complexity. This is why you are making a simple version, a standard version and a even more complex one. If the game is too simplistic, it will loose some charm. The most complex version to me was Advanced 2E. Yet, I know a lot of players who started with this edition, and a lot who still believe it is the best ever. Trying to get more people onboard is a good thing, but is it not secondary to keeping those you already have ?
You can focus on finding a way to make it easier for non-player to get in all you want. I could even have a few constructive and positive comments to help. However, that is not what I am looking for in a game. The vast majority of people I know either play because they love it, do not play because they do not have the time to commit to it, or just find it from uninteresting to blatantly repellent. Instead, find a way to give us more time to play !
Word. They're far too derivative on their own. They're awesome as subclasses/paragon paths/etc. Same goes for Seeker (should be incorporated into Ranger), Warlord (should be under Fighter), and Assassin (should go into Rogue).
I like playing jesters and minstrels. I don't see them being necessary as backgrounds, but there needs to be room for a tricksy tumbling bard with magic to impress, as well as excise wounds.
(con't) I think that the game does need to reward both good Character Building AND good Party Building. I mean, it is fun sometimes to make a special group that breaks from the norm, but part of the reason that is fun is because it does in fact make the whole concept more challenging. A group of all fighters is great in straight combat, but the lack of the other 3 archetypes makes it harder to avoid traps, handle swarms, counter magic, and heal magically, as well as repel undead. A party of all...
View full comment(con't) I think that the game does need to reward both good Character Building AND good Party Building. I mean, it is fun sometimes to make a special group that breaks from the norm, but part of the reason that is fun is because it does in fact make the whole concept more challenging. A group of all fighters is great in straight combat, but the lack of the other 3 archetypes makes it harder to avoid traps, handle swarms, counter magic, and heal magically, as well as repel undead. A party of all Clerics is a little more rounded, especially if each is a cleric of a different God/Domain so they are better able to sub for missing archetypes, but still, their not quite as good at AOE as if they had a Wizard type, they aren't as good at trap-finding than if they had a Rogue, etc... A group of all Wizards is drastically hurting in the AC and HP departments. Much weaker in toe to toe fighting, however, with properly diverse spell selection, they can handle a lot of situations. They are still shy on healing.
Reward good Role-playing, reward good Character Building, reward good Background/storytelling, and reward good Party Building. Simple as that!
I love playing clerics, but I also like the option of DMing a world inspired by Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones - both settings with lower magic and less healing. Just as Mike Mearls likes to run an all day castle siege, and Chris Perkins a new campaign with lots of political intrigue, I think the basic rules should allow for an easy to use option for non-magical, or more rare, or slower forms of healing. Keep up the good work, Mike - and thanks as always for listening!
View full comment
View full comment