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The Tower of Terror stands like a wicked bone thrusting up into the sky in the centre of a bleak landscape of windswept hills and untamed scree.
The tomb of a mad wizard, a twisted trail of tricks and traps, a horde of forgotten treasure... or so the stories say... the Tower has drawn adventurers to it like moths to a flame. In fact, a small shanty town has sprung up nearby, offering goods and services to those brave - or foolhardy - enough to risk their lives in that thrice-damned place. As you stand on the edge, looking out across the moor, you wonder if you had been right to come here. --------------------------------------------- The Tower of Terror is a Pathfinder adventure for L2 characters. Original Recruitment thread. Please repost your sheets below. 
Arith Tomoren, Human, Two-Handed Fighter 2  Sheet Show Attributes: • Strength: 18 (16 +2, 10 pts) • Dexterity: 12 (2 pts) • Constitution: 18 (17 pts) • Intelligence: 8 (-2 pts) • Wisdom: 8 (-2 pts) • Charisma: 10 (0 pts) Health: • HP: 25 (10 HD1 + 4 Con1 + 1 FC1 + 2 HD2 + 4 Con2 + 1 FC2 + 3 Toughness) Racial Features: • Bonus Feat: Toughness • Skilled: +1 Skill each level • Age: 20; Height: 5'8"; Weight: 151 lbs. Class Features: • Bonus Feats: Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Desperate Battler • Shattering Strike (replaces Bravery) Skills: • Trained: Intimidate (x2) +5; Climb (x1) +7; Sense Motive (x1) +4 • Untrained: Acrobatics -3; Appraise -1; Bluff +0; Diplomacy +0; Disguise +0; Escape Artist -3; Fly -3; Heal -1; Perception -1; Ride -3; Stealth -3; Survival -1; Swim +0 Traits: • Dirty Fighter • Suspicious Feats: • Weapon Focus (Greatsword) • Toughness • Step Up • Desperate Battler Equipment: • Explorer Outfit (free) • Masterwork Greatsword (350 gp) • Masterwork Field Plate (550 gp) • Backpack (2 gp) • Bedroll (1 sp) • Chalk (1 cp) • Crowbar (2 gp) • Flint & Steel (1 gp) • Hammer (5 sp) • Lantern, Hooded (7 gp) • Mirror, Small Steel (10 gp) • Oil (1 pt flask) x5 (5 sp) • Piton x5 (5 sp) • Pole, 10-foot (5 cp) • Pouch, belt (1 gp) • Rations, trail (per day) x5 (2 gp 5 sp) • Rope, silk (50') (10 gp) • Tent, small (10 gp) • Waterskin x2 (2 gp) • Coins: 4 pp, 10 gp, 8 sp, 4 cp • Encumberance: 115.02 lbs (Medium Load) Combat Related Info: • Attacks: ◊ Masterwork Greatsword: +8, 2d6+6, 19/x2, S ◊ Gauntlet/Unarmed: +6, 1d3+5, 20/x2, B ◊ Dagger: +6M/+3R(10'), 1d4+4, 19/x2, P/S ◊ Conditional: +1/+1 when no ally w/in 10' and no aid benefit; +2/+1 when flanking; -/+1 vs objects; all others per normal • Combat Maneuvers: ◊ CM Bonus: +6 (+1 on Sunder attempts) ◊ CM Defense: 17 (16 FF) (+1 vs Sunder attempts) • Defenses: ◊ AC: 18 (11 T/17 FF) ◊ Fort: +7 ◊ Ref: +1 ◊ Will: -1 • Misc: ◊ Init: +1 ◊ Speed: 30' / 20' Background Show Arith Tomoren was the only daughter of an innkeeper and his wife, the youngest of a half-dozen children. Her mother die while she was still a very young child and her father never remarried, so she grew up in a household of men. Try as he might, her father could show her how to be "proper," or "feminine," or what-have-you, but she would always end up wrestling with the boys, playing at swords, and in general learning how to survive in a man's world. At that, she learned well. She could hold her own when her brothers ganged up on her. She could end a bar-room brawl single-handedly while she was serving customers. She even learned to fight reasonably well with the greatsword with which her father had returned from the war, when he was but a lad himself. Arith had also learned something else, during her childhood: her father had lied to her about her mother. She learned it by accident, when her eldest brother had gotten drunk the night before his wedding. That was when Arith learned the truth, that her brothers were only her half-siblings, brothers from another mother. Their mother had died in childbed, with the youngest of her brothers. Her mother had been a passing adventurer that had helped comfort him in mourning; she'd returned a year later with their child, Arith, dropping her at the door and taking leave that same day. She kept the secret herself, from that point on, but she knew what she had to do. So when Arith came of age, she quietly packed up the armor, the field plate she'd been having the blacksmith's apprentice making for her over a year, in exchange for certain favors. She quietly wrapped her father's sword in a blanket; she had everything she'd figured she'd need for her new life, odds and ends collected from having seen what the passing adventurers had, from what the tales told her she would want in that pack of hers. The night she she came of age, she was gone from the inn; for so many years, she had learned to be like her father, but now she was going to follow her mother's path. Perhaps even find her herself, wherever she might have gotten to. The Tower of Terror seemed, to her, to be a good place to do that. There was always the chance that her mother had been here before her. And if not, then perhaps Arith could make a name for herself in this place, a name that would be spread... and bring her mother to her. 
William the youngster (go to the link to make it look nicer)
 www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheet... 
Sarah K'bam, Human Grenadier
docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Agd...  Sarah has grown up with her father, an officer in the kings guard. She is self-confident and seems a bit too old for her age sometimes, while at others she takes the opportunity to live out her lost teenage years. She applied for an official position in the army, but was rebutted. "Hah, a woman commanding the men, that's ridiculous! You know what sweetie, clear the tower of terror and you're in." The man laughed in her face, clearly meaning it as a joke, but to Sarah, the bet was on. ------------ Sarah is a ranged combat specialist, using grenades and arrows to kill from afar. She can also make and use a number of alchemical items, has a broad knowledge base, and knows how to make a number of potions to help and heal.
OOC tangent... Show
a tower no-one has ever come back from sounds like a fun time with those words William headed towards the tower seeking long forgotten treasure
Sarah sits just outside the village, completing her alchemical supplies.A short thought bursts into her mind, that she could probably make herself a life from selling the stuff instead of using it herself, but she's a stubborn girl.
Okay, lets see, we have acid and fire.. maybe i should make some Antiplague just in case, never know what bites you. After two more vials are done, she packs up, securing some of the fire and acid flasks in easy reach, while the rest is securely strapped into a cushioned compartment of her backpack. Now all we need is some help, she whispers to herself. She had stomped towards here thinking of entering on her own, but soon realised that it would be a foolish thing to do. After all, she was used to have some reliable soldiers right in front of her. Adventurers had come and gone the past week, but none of them had looked even remotely trustworthy. She turns to get back to town when a young man moves past in the direction of the tower. For some unfathomable reason she feels a connection to him. She cocks her head to one side and with a smile asks: You planning to go to the tower all alone?
william turns having heard someone calling him, he turns around he sees a girl smiling at him hearing her question, he smiles takes off his hat and tips his head to her in a bow howdy mam, the names william, in answer to your question that was my plan why you askin? if you don't mind me saying he says a smile on his face placing his hat back upon his head
Manners at last! Sarah thinks to herself.
I am asking because i do not think it safe to go in alone. I've been waiting for some good company for a while. Would you mind teaming up?
William studys the girl examining her its a bit dangerous but you seem prepared, sure c'mon lets go he says before turning and walking back towards the tower
Mmmhmm, two complete strangers hooking up to go and clear a tower of ghoulies... sounds like a plan.
As the two make their way along the road to the tower, they pass a tree; a woman's voice says, "That place ain't such a good one for a first date, you know...."
Sitting and leaning against the trunk, Arith is sharpening her sword and watching for adventurers on their way. She's not particular about the who; anyone headed that way will do. She grins dryly at her little joke, then stands, using the tree trunk for stability. "Care for a chaperone?"
We aren't dating. Sarah responds a little annoyed. That came out a bit strong..
I mean i don't mean you wouldn't be fit for dating, it would just be unexpected.. Anyway, the more the merrier, she finally answers with a slightly forced laugh.
Hearing this Will turn to look at the stranger howling with laughter, this ain't a date this is business. he turns to his companion don't worry i ain't insulted he says good naturedly. if miss chaperone over there wants to follow us i won't object he says before walking onwards
I'm presuming you're heading down to the tower now, then?
The landscape around the Tower is bleak and unforgiving, but it's but a short walk from the town. As you stand on the hillside looking towards it, you fancy you see something flying around the top. A bird, perhaps? Or, given the distance, something larger?
The tower itself is easily several stories tall. It's fashined from some dark stone and the signs of weathering are clear. Like a charred finger pointing accusingly at the sky, it radiates and aura not so much of forboding, but of misbegotten unnaturalness.
Arith takes the lead, carrying her sword with the flat across her shoulders instead of in its sheath, letting the other two trail behind a little bit though not getting too far ahead.
Without stopping, she peers at the flying creature, but isn't able to make it out clearly. "That a vulture? Or might it be a problem?" she asks generally, not much caring which of the other two might respond. As the group approaches the main entrance (assuming there is one that seems obvious), she adds, "Abandon all hope, et cet'ra. Y'all ready?"
Always assume the worst case so you can be pleasantly surprised. Its an evil dragon.
Sarah readies her bow and adjusts her bomb-belt and quiver. She nods to Arith. No time like the present.
I was born ready he declares loudly a smirk on his face begins following the girls musket drawn
The trio makes their way towards the forbidding tower. As they approach, they see what looks to be a lone figure waiting outside. Drawing closer, they discern him to be a man, of middling build with long brown hair tied back. A long, curved sword rests in his hand.
"Hail!" he cries, as you approach. "Who goes there?"
Oh please not the "it's dangerous past here" guy. Sarah whispers.
the name's william we seek to enter the tower in the distance William says a pleasent smile on his face
"It IS dangerous past here," the man replies, clearly overhearing. "Dangerous not just to your bodies, but your souls. You come here driven by intrigue, and by greed. Turn back now, lest the Tower consume you!"
Wait.. you want us to turn BACK so that THEN the tower can consume us? What kind of twisted logic is that?
Arith mutters in a half-whisper, "Think he meant 'turn back or else' it would do those things." She smiles pleasantly at the man. "Out of curiousity, does anyone actually turn around at this point, and say, 'Gee, you know what? I think I left the fire on the stove back home, need to go check or else there'd be hell to pay.' What sort of percentage success do you have at this door guarding business? Does it pay well? Good health benefits?"
William chuckles at his companions wit as you can see we arn't the type to be turned back let us pass he says his voice having a teasing edge to it
Typo, should have been "lest"...
"This is a place of evils far darker than mere vermin infestations or a prankster's traps!" the man proclaims. "There is a wicked will at work here, drawing such "adventurers" as you towards it like moths to a flame. I say again, stand down, for you shall not pass me!"
Arith seems less amused, now, her fingers curling around the grip of her greatsword, bringing it off her shoulders and down before her. "And we. Don't. Care." She raises herself to her full height, and brandishes the sword. "If there's 'a wicked will,' as you say, behind this place, then until it is removed it is a threat to everyone and anyone who might come this way. You cannot prevent all from entering. In fact, by doing so, you are aiding and abetting that very evil that you claim to be opposed to." She steps forward slowly and purposefully, eyes on the guardian. "So you can do one of three things, old man. You can stand aside and allow us to continue. You can join us and help to take down this evil enemy your so rightly fear. Or...," she stops coming forward, and takes a combat stance, "or you can die. Your choice, old man." Her voice is firm and cold.
Mechanics Show
Sara is about to say something about not threatening innocent people with death, but decides to stay silent for a moment to see if the threat works, making ready to intervene should Arith decide to keep the promise. Surely knocking the guy out for a bit will work just as well.
William disagree's with threatening people but doesn't want to cause a fuss over such a trivial matter, his smile becomes tense and his hand inches it's way down to his gun in case the crazy guy turns violent
"This tower is a place of the dead," the man replies, unphased. "Let it remain so."
At Arith's strong words he raises his sword, ready to defend himself should she attack.
Undead you mean. There will be no peace for the dead until whatever dark influence is removed, and it won't remove itself. We know very well that we might end up like the ones before us, but it is in the end our very own life and soul we might throw away, and therefore our very own decision.
And its not as if 3 more corpses would make much of a difference to the forces inside. Now please let us through.
"I have sworn an oath," the man replied. "Non shall pass my blade. Seek adventures elsewhere, for there are plenty, and let this place be forgotten!"
What, killing the people before they can get themselves killed? That sounds to me as if said tower has twisted your mind quite thoroughly already.
Sarah thinks about maybe just waiting out of sight for a while, the guy has to sleep at some point, she isn't in much of a hurry. Or has he? She remembers such guardians to sometimes be already deceased souls, bound to a purpose by magic. It would also explain the old-fashioned language. While wracking her brain for Information on some strange guardian of the tower, she also takes a closer look to make sure he's really a live being. Spoiler: Show Hm.. lets do Knowledge:History and Knowledge:Local to determine any information on a guardian, and the other might be Nature or Heal.. I frankly never did many Knowledge checks in Pathfinder before. 1d20=16, 1d20=19, 1d20=14, 1d20=17 So.. 16+6=22 History 19+6=25 Local 14+10 = 24 Nature 17+5 = 22 Heal
Arith rolls here eyes. "Clearly you haven't been doing such a great job, if so many have already gotten themselves killed. Besides," she adds, "if you come with us then we aren't passing your blade. So you keep your oath, we get what we want, and you get to kill some of those you claim to be your enemies, to boot. Though if you were really their enemies, you wouldn't be threatening us."
good idea how about it stranger? William asks. his hand resting on the gun
Sarah
Show
You remember hearing tell of some weird guy standing guard outside the Tower, but it slipped your mind. Apparently he seems to believe that the Tower is a source of evil and greed and that non should enter. You're pretty sure the guy is Human, too. "Fools!" the man spat. "I do not prevent your passage to preserve your lives, but to end the chain of avarice this place has caused! You and so many others like you seek to plunder this place, and should you succeed you shall only encourage others to follow in your footsteps, young fools too whose lives might otherwise be spared. Better for your lives to be lost and serve as a lesson to others than for this thing to continue!"
She raises an eyebrow. I'm not really here for the loot you know. And i wouldn't call anything less than eliminating every threat there is in that tower "succeeding". So if we'd succeed, there wouldn't be any more danger for young fools following after.
- Not that you'd be convinced by logic. It sounds rather personal for you. Any young fools you knew lost to the tower?
The man raises his sword.
"I have given you fair warning," he intones. "Leave now, for you shall not pass me"
Arith grips her sword in both hands as she sighs. "Yeah, was afraid you'd say that." She rushes forward, charging into the battle.
Ok, how does this part work, now?
Before we really do battle: Is there no way around the man by sneaking past?
William sighs moving backwards drawing his gun don't make me kill you old man He threatens.
Spoiler: Show initiative roll invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3777581/ 5 total
You might be able to, but you'd probably have to use e.g. Invisibility, or disable him somehow (e.g. Sleep)
"If you try, you shall fail" the swordsman replies calmly. Initiative Show Rolls Sarah (15+) Arith (15-) Swordsman (10) William (5) Note: If you do start fighting, I'm also going to say that nobody is flat-footed given you've given each other ample warning (not sure if that's a rule or not but it makes sense IMO)
Sarah eyes the metal bottle on her belt, first thinking about taking the mutagen and simply walking past, then wondering if she could get the guy to drink it. People unused to it often get sick for a while. He might be out in the bushes for hours.
Only thing i can offer to disable him is the 1 hour nauseated from drinking my mutagen. But really, i'm not sure how to get him to drink it at this point, he's pretty hostile already. Other than that, if Arith wants to act first, i'll let her and delay until after her turn.
Arith rushes forward, her greatsword arcing around her as she approaches the man, slashing it through his armor and into his side as she hits him.
Mechanics Show This turn assumes, of course, that the distance to the man is 40' or less, but at least 10'.... Full-Round Action: Charge @ Man. Attack Roll: 27 vs AC should be a hit (on the roll text, where I said "Dirty Fighter" I meant "Desperate Battler"). Damage is: 17 hp. If I have a choice and it doesn't reduce the damage amount, let's try Non-lethal? First time I've ever done combat in 3.x/PF-style, so let me know if I've missed anything. Statblock Show AC: 18 (11 Touch) CMD: 17 (18 vs Sunder) HP: 25/25 Conditions: Charging (-2 AC)
Yeah, you can charge - I'll try and get a map up but it doesn't seem necessary atm.
The warrior steps back as Arith rushes him, arcane energy flashing from his spare hand. A shimmering distortion seems to come upon him and suddenly, you see not one warrior, but six! Arith strikes one of them, and the illusion shatters - but more remain. Dealing nonlethal damage incurs a -4 to attack, but it doesn't matter in this case. Note: I'm "cheating" slightly and assuming that the warrior has readied an action to act when you did last round, since it makes sense. So sue me. 
It seems like fighting it is. Sarah whispers, as she runs up and throws a bomb at the images in front of Arith.
Spoiler: Show -4 it is hm.. I'll throw a bomb in the hopse that i can take out more than one "image". This is a 3x3 area centered on one of them. I'll exempt Arith from any damage dealt. Bomb (1d20+1+3+1-4=15, 1d6+5=11) So.. direct: 15 vs Touch, 11 damage primary target; splash: 6 damage targets adjacent, save half DC 16
The swordsman whirls aside as Sarah's bomb flies towards him, but it hits and destroys one of his mirror images. The resulting fiery explosion leaves both of the combatants reeling in pain.
Reflex saves: Man: 10, Arith: 6. Both take 6 damage and the man has 3 images left (roll 1d4, 1=him). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can exempt Arith unless you aim at a square so that only the other guy is in the blast radius, in which case you only deal splash damage and don't destroy an image; I don't know if you want to ammend that action so you don't singe your own teammate...
I've got the precise bombs discovery, so yes, i can exempt her:
www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/al... Also: did that hit but got an image or did that not hit and got an image anyway? There are rules for bombs not hitting going somewhere else and bla..
Ah, OK, cool. Artih does not take any damage, then (though the warrior still does).
Mirror Image in Pathfinder seems to work differently; if you miss by 5 or less you hit an image anyway so yes you hit but got an image (just not in the same sense). The nameless warrior shifts, channeling arcane power. An icy blue light passes up his blade, as he slashes rapidly at Arith, his many images making him a blur of deadly power. Concentration (to cast defensively): 1d20+8+2=30 Attacks: 1d20+9=21, 1d20+9=28 (both hit) Threat: 1d20+9=10 (denied) Damage: 1d8+1=8, 1d8+1=5 plus 1d6+4=7, 1d6+4=7 nonlethal cold. Arith is on 12/25 and is Fatigued, with 14 nonlethal, so she's also Unconscious.  Wincing at the pain from Sarah's bomb, the man shifts back from Arith's chilled body. "You will not defeat me today," he says, unimpressed. "Take your friend and go."
Ok, I have so many questions about what just happened it's not funny. But first thing's first: If he already used a Readied Action this round, how in the world is he going a second time — use of a Readied Action resets Initiative order, and means you don't act in the round you use the readied action? The second being, how was the magus able to cast 2 Frostbite spells in a single action, especially since casting a touch spell through a weapon makes it a Full Round Action? Third, how in the world is he getting 2 Melee attacks — again, goes back to the spell casting via weapon being a Full Round Action, which means he took 2 Full Round Actions during a turn in a round where he'd already taken a Readied action?
OK, you might have a point on the readied action, actually - I always screw up init.
I'll answer your others though. What Just Happened... Show The guy's a Magus. He can use that ability where he casts a spell and attacks as a full-round action. He casts Frostbite, and then attacks. However, the Magus also has an ability where he can channel a touch spell through his sword. So, he casts Frostbite, channeling it through his sword, then attacks again. Because Frostbite lets you make multiple touches, his sword is still charged with it, allowing him to deliver it again. Note that he suffers a -2 penalty for this, and optionally takes another -2 to boost his Concentration check, but uses Arcane Accuracy (as a swift action) to counteract that (burns a point from his Arcane Pool, though). Ironically, though he has two Frostbite touches left, he can't strike twice again because he needs to cast a touch spell to do that, and doing so would discharge the current one - it's very much a burst action. You're right about the initiatve, though (I just figured he'd be taking an action later than normal). That puts the swordsman up to the top of the queue, so still William gets to act before that all happens. Sorry! New Initiative Show
okay old man you asked for this william says as he draws his pistol shooting the man in his leg before reloading in a calm measure
mechanics Spoiler: Show drawing pistol attacking invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/3785169/ 17 vs touch ac for 9 points of non lethal damage trade in my move action to reload my pistol
Spoiler:
Show
I'll answer your others though. What Just Happened... Show The guy's a Magus. He can use that ability where he casts a spell and attacks as a full-round action. He casts Frostbite, and then attacks. However, the Magus also has an ability where he can channel a touch spell through his sword. So, he casts Frostbite, channeling it through his sword, then attacks again. Because Frostbite lets you make multiple touches, his sword is still charged with it, allowing him to deliver it again. Note that he suffers a -2 penalty for this, and optionally takes another -2 to boost his Concentration check, but uses Arcane Accuracy (as a swift action) to counteract that (burns a point from his Arcane Pool, though). Ironically, though he has two Frostbite touches left, he can't strike twice again because he needs to cast a touch spell to do that, and doing so would discharge the current one - it's very much a burst action. edit: read frostbite again, what the hell? Your melee touch attack..? Thats more how i would describe a buff, like your next x attacks do y. But thats obviously not meant since the target is not self but a creature. And anyway i don't think you have melee touch attacks by default to be changed. So that leaves making THE melee touch attack at the time you cast the spell, and the target is the one that is attacked. Now since you can make more than one the question is do they all need the standard action or are they delivered all at once? It doesn't really say, but the instantaneous really draws me to say all at once. As i explained its not a buff but an attack. And thats why i like 4e - so much less room for interpretations I'd interpret spellstrike differently or maybe its that i'd interpret frostbite differently.. Full Round (Spell Combat): You can make the attack with the weapon, and as a free action cast a spell seperate from that. You decide to cast the spell first, thats fine. Frost bit has touch attacks the number of levels you have, since you suggested that you had two left, that would be 4. Version 1: At this point you can decide to deliver the spell as is (4 attacks - thats one nice spell once you level up oO), or make ONE attack with weapon+spell effect(yes it explicitly states one) Version 2: You interpret making one attack plus the spells effects as making one "enhanced" attack and still having 3 touch attacks to make Version 3: Delivering the touch attack includes all attacks, so all can be made with the weapon (but.. 5 attacks total at level 4 that really hurt, thats unfair! (unless you're a summoner, than its fair)) Then you do the weapon attack, and i don't see how that second weapon attack would be affected. Frost Bite does not affect the weapon for some time, its an instantaneous spell that gives you touch attacks. In any case i can't see how what you did should have happened.. Also his attack is pretty high for still having a -3 penalty, even at level 4
On Frostbite
Show
Sorry for the confusion - guess I should have chosen a less contraversial first foe...
Frostbite allows you to make "up to one time per level", so it works like Chill Touch. You can "hold the charge" between attacks and make the rest at a later time. Now I myself wasn't sure whether later attacks could be channeled through Spellstrike, but the FAQ on the Magus page suggests they can. It says that even if you miss with a touch attack, you can hold the charge, pick up a completely different weapon even, and attack again. In this case, Frostbite is not affecting the weapon at all, it's just being transmitted through the weapon. Pathfinder also clarifies that a touch attack gives you a "free attack" as part of the casting. So, putting this together: - The guy can cast a spell and attack at -2 penalty. He casts Frostbite, then attacks. - By casting Frostbite, he's able to attack for free, and by using Spellstrike, he channels Frostbite through his sword. - Since Frostbite lasts for 3 more touches, he holds the charge and channels it again through his second attack. This does seem rather powerful (and damn I want to play a Magus now) but note some points: Notes Show - He doesn't get four attacks, he gets two. If he misses one, he misses with Frostbite, as well (though he can hold the charge). - By doing this he's giving up his touch attacks. These have to strike full AC, and with a -2 or greater penalty. He just rolled quite well there. - He can't cast another spell or even touch anything without losing the rest of his charges. - Since he's taking a full-round action, he has to be within 10ft of his foe for this to work (so he can 5ft-step in and still attack). When he's adjacent, as he was here, he also has to cast defensively or provoke an AoO. If he fails his concentration check he loses the spell, and with it the attack. The DCs are higher in PF too, so if he'd rolled a 6 or less he'd get a single attack at -4 (an extra -2 for the +2 on his Concentration check) with no Frostbite. That's a 30% chance of sucking fairly badly, since his attacks are pretty poor on their own. - He's actually a Kensei, so he has very few spell slots. He can only pull that trick once, because he hasn't memorised any more Frostbites. This is very much a "shock" manoeuvre; once, he can do big damage and knock someone out, if it works. Though I did say I wasn't going to pull punches, with hindsight it wasn't a very nice one for the first fight.
So .. you interpret that the melee touch attack from the spell is a weapon attack and thus can be used as the second attack from spell combat? I'm not sure about that.. You can only use spellstrike on casting a spell, not on making the attack with the sword, which i would assume you should do, you know, main hand and off-hand and stuff.
.. maybe we should make an ooc thread..
Yeah, maybe we should actually.
Yes - the description of Spellstrike itself suggests it's only the "free" attack which can be made with a weapon, but the FAQ/errata suggests that a Magus can attempt to deliver a touch spell through an attack at a later date - including the attack from Spell Combat.
Ok, so here's the Mechanics of what you did (which, by the by, I would appreciate you spelling out in the furture by action type, so that I can follow along at home):
Full Action: Using Spell Combat, he (a) cast Frostbite, then (b) made a weapon attack with the sword. Free Action: Using Spellstrike, when he cast Frostbite, he made a Weapon Attack to deliver the spell instead of making the free touch attack. In this case, he should only have gotten the two melee attacks and the one spell damage. If your contention is that he channeled the Frostbite with the second attack, under the same reason, my counterargument is that he would have then been making 2 Casting attacks, not 1 Casting attack and 1 Weapon attack. He can use the weapon attack to replace the touch attack. Let's put it this way: If he were any other class able to cast Frostbite, would he have gotten multiple free attacks? Or would he have to make a standard action each time to use the attack. If you interpret it your way, then someone could cast Frostbite with a standard action and then make 4 free touch attacks in the same round — something which would be totally unreasonable, IMO. My interpretation of the Frostbite spell is that he has to use a standard action each time he attacks with it, that it doesn't get wiped from his spellbook until all the uses have been used up. But I'm completely new to 3.x/PF, so I may be completely wrong in that interpretation.
nah i think he meant he casts frostbite, makes frostbite attack+spellstrike as free, then uses frostbite+spellstrike again as the secondary(weapon) attack. And thats where i would say it goes awry, because i wouldn't call frostbites melee touch attack a weapon attack eligible for spell combat, even if you can deliver it by spellstrike (which would make it a weapon attack, but it isn't one in the first place)
I think the confusion comes from the FAQ panel, which tells a story about casting-moving-striking with spellstrike to deliver the spell, which sounds a little like making the touch attack, than go on to use spellstrike to make a melee weapon attack. But since it says "deliver the spell as a free action" i think it just means to say, that you do not need to make the strike the very moment you cast the spell, but could do so at any later time. Maybe we should just ask in the Paizo forum, hm?
OK, sorry - I prefer not to divulge all the mechanics until after the fight so as not to spoil the mystery, so to speak (e.g. you're not even supposed to know he's casting Frostbite without a Spellcraft check) but in this case they're a bit complicated so I guess I should have been clearer.
Attacking with Frostbite is not a standard action, it's an attack action. That's usually a standard but if you had a high BAB you could make multiple attacks per round. I believe you could actually dual-wield touch attacks (in which case yes, any class could make multiple touches), but that's a bit contentious just because of how weird it is. Likewise a Monk could flurry and deliver Frostbite through his fists. Yes, the FAQ suggests that you can channel a touch with any weapon attack, which makes sense because you always can for the first touch, so it would be weird not to be able to for the second. So what he did was one casting (including a weapon attack) and one weapon attack (which also delivered a held charge). He still has charges held so he can attack and deliver another charge (via that attack) again next round, but he can't strike twice because one of those strikes was the "free" attack from casting Frostbite. Note that channeling the charge through a weapon attack is a gambit anyway because it's less likely to hit. If you guys are still worried about this I can give you the benefit of the doubt this time and we can get an external opinion but my ruling would (obviously) be that that's how it works.
Also...
William's shot blasts another image into oblivion (narrow miss means you destroy an image) The warrior's defences are gradually being shredded, leaving him with only two more mirror images.
Well, I found the answer, linked here. Which means that Arith is now down, though I still believe that the Readied Action being taken prior to intiative is a way to cheat initiaitive. From now on, since its clearly not cheating since the DM would have to be a truly rotten bastard to cheat players just to beat them, Arith will always ready an action pre-combat that if an enemy moves adjacent to her, she's attacking. (Assuming she's still in the game.)
Congratulations, Mr. DM. You beat the players, in the very first combat too. Well done, good job. Be proud of yourself.
Question: Out of curiousity, why the +2 on the Concentration Check, when he cast defensively? He's clearly still going to get the 19 he needed on the DC, but was just curious. Was it the optional circumstance bonus to boost his concentration, from Spell Combat? If so, did the attack rolls happen to take the penalty for doing so into account? I know the penalty to attacks for using spell combat — -2 to all attacks — was effectively countered by Arith's penalty to AC for charging, was just curious about the other bit. (Since the penalty is applied whether he makes or misses the Concentration check. (Which is why you should always show bonuses and penalties in rolls, instead of lumping them together.)
And, by the way, Player Knowledge doesn't equal character knowledge. Arith has no idea he's a Magus, or the license of the truck that just hit her, or anything like that. And you can always redact anything that's truly spoilerish, if you really don't think that a quick google search isn't going to tell me the exact same things (for example, I knew he was a Magus and that it was Frostbite before you said so). (Given you're linking your rolls instead of just saying what you rolled and hiding them behind the DM's Screen, I don't see the difference.) So telling the players the mechanics used doesn't spoil anything, nor does showing all bonuses and penalties in the rolls instead of just combining them into a single number; it simply helps the players understand what happened, since at least one of them is going to be asking you each and every time anyway, at least as long as he's still in the game. For example, if you'd bothered to explain what you were doing when you did it in the first place instead of after the fact, chances are that we would have saved more than half of this conversation.
So you mean one can switch any attack one has with a charge of the touch spell, generally? So he really has a weapon attack, but switches it for the touch attack? Well, i still find it strange with the rather specific wording of spellstrike, but oh well. Hm.. what to do with Arith now.. here i wish i was a real healer, don't know if i can administer a potion just like that in combat.
Also: what do we do now? a) tactical regrouping, but dm already said sneaking past is pretty much out, so we'll have to take him on at some point. b) retreat: to hell with the tower! Lets come back in a few levels. c) continue the fight - i don't think he'll kill arith just now, maybe we can take some more shots at him, if i understand correctly he shouldn't be able to do the full round action if he has to move closer to us? I'd suggest then we attack and maybe William moves so i'm in-between. I can always take my mutagen or a healing potion if i get hurt myself. Provided i don't drop like our fighter.
What it means is that until he casts another spell or has expended his 4 touch attacks, he can expend a touch attack each time he attacks. (It doesn't say "must," like if he touched someone normally.)
However, he only gets one attack per turn — since he'd have to cast a new spell to get the other, and thus lose the unexpended charges — so he'll only do 1d8+1+1d6+4 with each hit (yes, the 1d6+4 is fatigue damage, but as is proof with Arith, it's no difference). As for what to do now: You could always try to guilt him, showing him that he's become the evil he claims to want to stop. But that would require having a GM who wants to tell a story with the players, not one who would use any and all loopholes to beat them to a pulp. Frankly, I'm seriously tempted to say just go back to the town and retire from adventuring. If some arsehole who insists that he's too weak to fight the evil of the tower with three other people, much less by himself, can single-handedly beat us, then we clearly can't do this at 2nd level by our lonesomes. Again, that would require a DM who wants to tell a story, not one who'd borderline-cheat (if not cheat outright). Yes, as you can tell, I'm not having fun, and I'm more than ready to say that y'all should find a new player or whatever. I am having trouble extending any trust to the DM, after he cheated the Initiative check — I do not accept what he did as legal, no matter how much he's tried to say otherwise (he and I have been conversing via PM). Readying an action out of combat nullifies any advantage to the initiative check. He lost initiative to two of us. He'd only have cast either Mirror Image or Frostbite, not both. He should have a crapload of nonlethal damage, and even if Arith were down from the Frostbite attack, the other two should still have a fighting chance. However, that's not the case. We have a DM who's shown that he'll do anything to beat us. And I'm having a serious disconnect in trying to accept that he would do so and continuing to try to have fun. Playing Pathfinder/3.x was difficult enough for me, with the vast rules difference not only between 4 and 3.x, but between 2 and 3.x; this has been harder than teaching myself trigonometry. Dealing with a DM who would take advantage of that, and of us only having 3 people, and of potentially illegal rules interpretations in order to beat us? We have no chance anyway, why bother?
Now i wouldn't pull out the guns on the dm yet, its the very first round of combat oO
That said, i wish you'd be a little more flexible, Fred. I noticed that in the 3.5 game as well. If players don't want to follow the exact path you envisioned, don't just say "nothing happens", "nothing to do here", "its closed" until people get back on track. It just lengthens the whole thing and leads to disappointed players This is a similar situation. I had the feeling none of us really wanted to fight the guy, so we tried diplomacy in spades, i tried to find out if there is a way of going around, and to both you pretty much simply said no, so we fought to get on with things. Since it was obviously intended that we fought, it is hard to swallow when someone drops at the first action of the enemy. Though i guess 3.5/pathfinder are by design more prone to that happening from time to time, still i can understand that swmabie would be pissed at that happening. Especially if you do so by "well - lets just say he did x beforehand so you don't even hit him before you go unconcious". All in all, it does feel like being railroaded into an encounter that you want us to have serious trouble with. While we're all newbies. I don't think you try to kill off characters on purpose or anything. Just ease up a little and let things happen sometimes, even if you planned them out differently. I hope we can continue though, there's so little going on in my games at the moment, whatever shall i read in the morning?^^
I started playing D&D in the old days, using Basic. I was used to characters going down in one shot. While I'm not pleased that our first encounter had someone capable of doing so — after all, the whole point of starting at 2nd level, I thought, was to make us more likely to survive — I'd be fine with it if it was just that.
But, as she said: We tried alternatives to combat, and were forced into this. He used a questionable interpretation of the Readied Action rules to make the whole rolling of Initiative moot — why bother rolling Initiative if every enemy we come up with is going to have a readied action to win it, anyway? — and did something which made hitting him nigh impossible — something which reduced the first person attacking him's odds from maybe 50%-60% to less than 10%, and each subsequent attack having little better odds (especially given that they've both been attack Touch AC, and 17's missing; I'd hate to know what his Real AC is, especially with me taking a voluntary -4 penalty to the attacks to avoid actually killing him; you know, for some arsehole who insists he doesn't want to kill us, he's the only one who's doing Lethal Damage attacks, what's up with that scheisse?). Anyway, back on topic: I'm not upset about going down. I'm bothered about the manner in which this came about. It feels like we had no choice but to have our arses handed to us. Which goes back to what I said before. I used to play in a Shadowrun game when I lived in Texas, and enjoyed it immensely, even with having to make new characters due to death. When I moved to Carolina, I was invited to a game; the DM would always counter everything we did with whatever he could come up with, saying, "Well, they're hyper-paranoid and well-funded. They clearly would have already come up with whatever plan you were going to do and countered it beforehand." I left before the first session was even over. The DM has an unfair advantage against the players — he controls "reality." It's not fun if he's going to do so with the sole intent of viewing it as DM vs Player. The players can never win.
I'm thinking you might be better off trying to hit someone with mirror image while blinded (50% hit)
Just need to close your eyes. Its a much higher chance than the 20% you get when he's got 5 images. Just for next time i guess.
Sheesh... OK, I'll try and cover this. Rules first:
However, I do think something of an apology is in order. I tend to forget that you guys are fairly new to this, and though I've not really played much PF myself my 3.5 experience makes me... optimise a bit, I guess. I literally thought, "OK, so 3-4 L2 chars, a L4 guy should be challenging but hopefully doable for them" (3 x L2 is probably not quite a L4, but IIRC he's using a lower point buy). Believe it or not, I actually also planned on having him use Corrosive Touch and trying to one-shot everone but I thought that would be too harsh (turns out Frostbite on a Magus is actually better than I expected - this is my lack of experience showing through).
I also, despite advertising this as "brutal", did not wish to kill everyone on the first fight. I didn't actually realise Frostbite did +1/level until that happened (I was thinking Chill Touch). This guy's rolls weren't bad, either - most significantly, he rolled maximum images. Maybe I should have fudged that. Also note that a) Arith is not dead, and b) the guy is telling you to back off rather than pushing the attack. You actually could back off and I'd have something else for you to do. I'm sorry if it seems like I'm railroading you - I said there wasn't much you could do to sneak past him because I couldn't think of much, but that didn't mean you couldn't try. You might be able to get help back in town. As you suggested, you might be able to watch him and wait for him to go to sleep (but he's a ninja, he'd probably wake up). In fact, even if he'd knocked you all out, half of it'd probably be nonlethal so you wouldn't be dead, and who knows, you might wake up somewhere mysterious and exciting (in this case, that wasn't what I'd planned, but for all you guys know it could have been ) Likewise maybe you are being thrashed when some unknown help shows up to help you out (same). There's loads that could happen here.So yeah, I'm willing to work with this. I don't claim to be the world's greatest DM, and I did advertise this as "hack-and-slash" to learn the rules, but I'm happy to take it where you guys want to go. However, I don't appreciate being slated. I get I've made some errors of judgement here and you guys are irked, but I've explained how I thought what I did was valid (and it's only really the ready which was an issue; possibly the fact I put you up against a tough foe in the first place) not an excuse to wail on you for no reason. If you want to try and take it from here, let's go. If you would rather I rewind and we pretend non of this ever happened, I can do that too. If you think I'm a nasty DM who just wants to force you into a fight so I can kill you and stop having to DM for you, well I can't do much about that so perhaps we should part. If you're willing to accept this as something of an apology and try to move forwards, then let's see what we can do.
(1) In my PM to you, when I had said about readying a charge, I didn't know you couldn't ready a charge. I've since changed it to what I can do, since you've already set the precedent that initiative is a joke. I'm readying an attack to the first enemy who moves adjacent to me. You've proven that it's perfectly legal to do so (in your own personal opinion, not mine, but since you're the DM you're the one who gets to decide this), irregardless of what I actually roll in initiative.
(2) Again, I would really appreciate it if you would say what your NPCs are doing, so that we can know. This is the second time that he's taken an action in front of us that you've only mentioned to us after the fact. It's not like he's invisible, out of line of sight, or hidden. He's right in front of us, casting spells which require verbal and somatic components without us actually seeing him do so and doing all sorts of other stuff that we should be aware of. Heck, at this point, I'm not sure I could trust that you're not changing the character and adding stuff after the combat's already started, since you still haven't addressed the fact that you railroaded us into this bloody combat and then did everything you could kill us. Arcane Accuracy? Frostbite? Readying Mirror Image pre-combat? You've pulled out every stop to win this combat that only you wanted to have. Why should we trust you any further? (more response coming because this was to the first post, not to the second)
Ok, here's my deal:
When we first started, I said I was concerned that we had a group that had (a) only one melee fighter, and (b) no healer. You repeatedly reassured us and said that you would take that into account. Forcing us to have a combat: If the DM tells us that there's no way to sneak past, and has completely ignored all of our social skill checks, then why in the hell would we bother to waste our time suggesting anything else to avoid combat? Our only other options would have been (a) going somewhere other than the Tower of Terror, or (b) camping out and doing nothing. Maybe we should have done that instead, hmm? Maybe we should have told Magass that we'd help him keep anyone else out. Maybe we should have just stood around the Tower and challenged anyone else who came, instead; then we'd have Magass on our side instead of killing us. So not only forcing us to have a combat, but making one which you admitted was more difficult than our level (irregardless of your point buy)? Using a class which you said earlier you weren't well aware of, and so couldn't properly estimate either way? And, on top of it, making a ruling which you admitted from the beginning was questionable in order to help you even further? Fudged Mirror Image? You shouldn't have even been using it! I'm sorry you think you didn't do anything wrong with the pre-combat readied action. I'm sorry that you can't understand why I believe what you did was cheating. I'm sorry that you fail to comprehend how much you've broken Initiative Order in doing so, as proven by my standing readied action that you've made completely legal now. I would like to continue playing. But I would like to know that I can trust the DM. I would like to know that I can trust him to be fair and honest. I would like the process to be transparent — you can hide your rolls, but I want to know what you do and how you do it. If you want to make things brutal? Fine, make them brutal. But if you're turning this into DM vs Player? Then I'll be out, thank you very much. I'll let you decide how you want to proceed from there. I'd like a fair combat — one where someone isn't breaking the whole purpose of Initiative. I'd like NPC's who actually react to social checks. I'd like us to be able to have multiple avenues of getting through a situation — at most one combat and at least one non-combat — since the most important resource we have is Arith's 25 hit points, since she's the only hand-to-hand combatant we have, and we need to have ways to preserve those 25 hit points. So if you want to let us re-approach the tower and do things differently? Fine, I'll go with it. If you want to start at the Initiative Roll, and go from there? Fine, I'll go with it. If you want to continue from the point we're at? Fine, I'll go with it. But if you decide that you're not willing to make this a Co-operative game? Let me know now, because then I'm out. And, let me repeat something I pointed out, in response to this: "b) the guy is telling you to back off rather than pushing the attack." There've been four attacks. Only one person has even tried to do Lethal damage. That's the guy who the DM insists isn't actually trying to kill us. The rest of us have been voluntarily taking the -4 penalty (though, granted, I admitted I didn't know it when I did it at the time) to attacks. It would be nice, if the DM says that the guy's not trying to kill us, that the DM actually not be the ONLY person who's doing LETHAL damage, hmmm? In fact, maybe if he would do that, then maybe this would have been a fair fight, since if the others hadn't been taking the -4 penalty, they wouldn't have missed — and maybe if he had, he would have.... (well, no, he wouldn't have, with the 17 hitting Arith's reduced AC, but still, it's the principle of the matter; instead of him doing 27 non-lethal damage, he did 13 lethal and 14 non-lethal; which, again, harkens back to Arith's 25 hp being our most precious resource).
Uhm.. if he did half lethal and half non-lethal, you're not actually unconcious are you? If i understand correctly, they're treated separately and you need to be at a negative in either one to fall unconcious, they don't stack.
Also, i think pre-combat readied actions are called "the surprise round", which he definetly doesn't get. We would have noticed readying of the spell and could have intervened, just as he would have noticed someone making ready for a charge. So we go by initiative instead to solve the problem there about who's faster. Its a little bit murkier when it comes to purely defensive actions. Say if he had taken a defensive stance when we arrived, we might not have felt the need to initialize combat then and there, and he could have kept the stance until we started the fight. If we felt that the defensive stance was the start of combat though, its initiative again.
All right, hang on a sec. Can I surmise that your objections are as follows?
1) The readied action 2) The fact that you feel my storytelling abilities are not up to scratch, and that I've not provided enough non-combat options in a "hack-and-slash" combat game? 3) The foe was too tough When did that turn into me cheating you at every opportunity? I gave the guy one readied action, more for flavour reasons than anything else (I didn't know which was the later rounds would go when I did that), whether you want to believe that or not, which is hardly "pulling out every stop to win this combat". If I'd wanted to do that I could just have given him another couple of levels. In fact, if I'd wanted to cheat every way possible I'd have had him use his Arcane Pool on his weapon, too (since that's a swift action which could have been taken at pretty much any time before he used Arcane Accuracy) for another +1 enhancement, but that really would be pushing it if it were done outside of combat. Now, we can discuss this until the cows come home but I've tried (and perhaps failed) to explain my thought process on this, and actually gone so far as to apologise for what, one way or another, was clearly an error of judgement. You can either accept that or we can pack it in. I've also offered to reboot the game if you'd prefer that. (Though actually, I was looking at the situation and I'd say this whole fight's still winnable... though the odds are not great... if that was what you decided to do)
Okay, lets just continue on then. We'll let the mirror image happen, but that is the guys turn in the first round. And no readied actions while standing in front of someone, from either side, ever again, deal? That puts him at the head of ini. The attack was his turn in the second round, and everyone is going now, including Arith, who is fatigued but not unconcious unless you want to retcon the guy dealing half lethal.
So its Ariths turn. Sorry, says current hit points, not total, my bad. So i'll just post my turn next, okay? I'll continue the fight.
Seeing the man use the sharp part of his blade, Sarah considers this no longer a brawl.
She throws another bomb, this time not caring if it hits close enough to be lethal. She shortly wishes to have made the attempt at some tanglefoot bags, but this will have to do. As the explosion blossoms, she sprints forward, closer to Arith, but further away from William, so the man will have to move for a while to get from one to the other. Spoiler: Show Spare Arith Bomb (1d20+1+3+1=21, 1d6+5=10) fire damage, 6 adjacent, reflex save DC 16 halves move somewhere 1 square away from Arith, 2 squares away from guy, and maximal distance to William. I can administer the potion to arith as full-round. Does that include taking the potion in hand, or would i need another move for that? (Its not in my backpack). If i'd need another move, could i take it out with my move action this round? (Like you can with drawing a weapon?)
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1) The point I'm making is, you disagree with one decision that I've made. We've discussed it. We still disagree. You've refused to accept my reasoning, and whilst I've noted your objection and admitted I can understand your stance, I haven't been persuaded. In future I will bear this in mind but as far as I'm concerned, this ruling stands; you don't have to agree with it. End of.
2) This guy thinks that scaring people away from the Tower is the right thing to do. Now, as far as you're all concerned, he may be actually crazy. He's also meant to be somewhat Samurai-themed. He's made a vow to himself that a simple Intimidate check probably isn't going to break (and OK, maybe this means he's unwilling to attack you or whatever, but he wasn't going to anyway). Remember social encounters are not just single rolls either; some simply shouldn't be solvable by and given skill (particularly Bluff or Intimidate). That all aside, I think I actually advertised this as something where I was going to throw encounters at you without them making much sense. I tried to mix things up a bit with a guy who was a bit more than a mook but I guess that was a bad decision. I would also note that not a one of you tried Knowledge or Gather Info before setting out, or you might have heard more story about this guy. You also seem to be suggesting that I should be fudging the rolls in your favour? 3) What sort of a display does readying an action or taking a swift action provide? A spell has verbal and somatic components, but using Arcane Accuracy doesn't necessarily. You're accusing me of keeping things secret from you when I told you I was having him take a readied action rather than trying to gloss over that, and explained in detail his subsequent actions. Despite that you're also accuse me of not mentioning the swift action when I made that explaination, which I did. What's happened is this: I took a debatable action, which we've debated, and I've chosen to maintain. I also had him do something which seemed off, but was actually explained at the first mention of confusion. As a result of this argument, you've also seen fit to insult my DMing and storytelling abilities as well as my trustworthiness. Now you're welcome to whatever opinion you want about those but my patience is beginning to get strained about this conversation now. Also, side note: Readied actions do happen before the trigger. This is actually a slightly screwy rule if you apply it literally to odd situations, but there it is.
I figured you'd look something like this as far as a map goes, btw:
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Hm.. i thought we'd be quite a bit further away since Arith charged, thats not making things much better. Can i put myself on square down?
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