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Jun 9, 2012 -- 9:12AM, HairlessThoctar wrote:

Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:49PM, Rogue_Elendae wrote:

Also, I find that the "D&D 4e is like an MMO" argument is often a sign of someone who is deliberately being obtuse and/or is potentially ignorant of actual MMO play.  As someone who only ended a 6-year World of Warcraft addiction a year ago, I can say that most of your bullet points actually don't match up to the truth of it.

In D&D 4e, you can choose a hybrid, you can choose to play one class as though it were another (people played Warlords as Bards frequently, when the edition first came out, and Rangers were refluffed to Monks), you can focus your class on its secondary role (a Warlock who is more controller than striker, for instance), you can multiclass, and you can create a particular concept (a mounted lancer, a charger, etc.) within the mechanics via feats, choice of powers, and choice of skills.  You decide which set of stats you use--are you a Chaladin, Straladin, or Baladin?--and you have ultimate influence on how your character turns out in the end.  Yes, powers require you to be using a particular weapon within your class's available selection, but the powers are not themselves tied to the gear.  Powers tied to weapons or armor are typically powers that belong to the item, not to the character class that's most likely to use it.

Yes, there are only so many powers available, and these will be what you do in battle; this is all that the designers created.  Yes, there is a time-frame in which they can be used; this has always been the case, even in the days of Vancian casting.  Yes, there are suggested builds, but you can routinely ignore those if it pleases you; the only parts of a class you have to take are the class features, and even those have options at this point.  But the only way that this can be considered at all conflatable with MMO character building/playing is if you are deliberately ignoring all of that.

In WoW, you choose a class and you're done.  No multiclassing or hybridization, no way to mimic one class with careful building of a different one.  There is a firm dividing line on what is a WoW class.  No secondary roles or creative concepts, either; you're going to be what the class sets out to be, and that's it.  You'll always have the same stat allocation as another of your class, because you get set numbers as you level up, and you've got at best four options--and that's only the Druid class--to build, and if you plan on running dungeons, particularly heroic level ones, or raiding, you'd better not even think of deviating from the single defined best build on the talent tree for what you want to do.  It was only recently, with the complete tear-down and recreation of talent trees for Mists of Pandaria, that there was a concept of there being anything but the one best build that people who calculated such mechanical advantages (the folks on Elitist Jerks, for example), and the people who did things like achieve "World First" at various top-tier raids set precedent for.

Also, no class will ever not have a specific set of powers; all Priests in WoW have the same baseline, with deviation only based upon their talent tree specialization, where a D&D4e player could take whatever power in their class pleases them.  Any Retribution Paladin will be the same as any other in terms of powers, because that is what a RetPally is.  Any Assassination Rogue will always have the same powers as another, etc.  All powers are always on specific cool-downs, but will always be there when they start a battle, where a 4e PC might enter an encounter with only At-Wills, or without their Daily powers due to what plot has done up until that point.  Furthermore, no power that is not already specifically tied to an item will ever "require" you have that item, to my recollection.  Classes get all their powers based on class; gear only gives bonuses to stats, possibly cuts down cast times for abilities or cooldowns, grants temporary extra bonuses to stats (the latter two most often on the raid tier equipment), and on rare occassions an extra power that may or may not be valuable, as some are only special effects instead of valuable abilities.

Mar 31, 2013 -- 8:40PM, Emerikol wrote:

I've always felt it is in the best interests of D&D to be as inclusive across the playerbase as they can be and still have a game.   I've never felt though that making a game that was inclusive within a group was very useful or even desirable.   DM's and players can decide amongst themselves what options or restrictions they want for their games.  I tend to lean to the DM to make most of those decisions but again that is a group specific thing.

Having said that.  I get the distinct impression that there are a lot of players on these boards who come from groups that generally ruled against their own desires.  It's almost like they are an oppressed minority from a gaming perspective.   I also get the impression that they tend to advocate against things that if available their fellow group members might like and vote them down on.

Do a lot of you feel this way?

Just for clarification...here are some examples...
1.  Alignment restrictions as an option.
2.  Alignment Mechanics
3.  Martial healing
4.  Races being included or not.

and so forth.  Thoughts?

Mar 31, 2013 -- 9:43PM, Authw8 wrote:

I know my perspective is not that I often play at tables where my likes are not represented. Instead, my perspective comes from the many years I spent being a bad DM. I was a bad DM because my guidance came from the books, and the books gave bad advice. The books told me that alignment was a useful approach to roleplaying, so I went with it even though it felt kind of weird to me. Now I know that, at least in my style of running games, alignment destroys rp. I trusted the books to give good advice, and it messed up my game. Now I'm much more mature as a DM, so I know how to take advice with a grain of salt. And I still learn new stuff every session I run.

I don't want future DMs to go through my problems again. There's a big enough DM shortage as it is. DMing well is hard.

The biggest thing I had to unlearn in my process of becoming a good DM was the idea that the game is a simulation of a world. I understand many DMs prefer a more simulationist approach, although I am always skeptical simply because I would have said the same thing until I learned and grew as a DM. This doesn't mean their approach is completely invalid, but it still gives me a personal twinge when I see a regression back to 3e era sim style gaming.

I also have noticed many groups where one or two old-school players run a whole group's playstyle because the newer players aren't even aware there are other ways of doing things. The newer players tell me stories of things they hated in the session, and I end up explaining to them how those things they hate are very fixable, and in fact are fixed in the newer edition of the game their older players have told them is terrible.

In regard to things like martial healing, I don't think it's necessary for it to be in the game for the game to be fun. However, the attitude that says martial healing is terrible and shouldn't exist is an attitude that, to me, reveals a wrongheaded approach to the game. Therefore, my fight for it to be an option is to help legitimize the more narrative approach that I think is what most players want, but many don't know is possible, because they've never been exposed to it.

Apr 22, 2013 -- 12:40AM, Mand12 wrote:

Mobile/tablet is not supported by WotC.  They're stuck in the past, with no coherent vision of how technology could benefit their product.

Jun 9, 2012 -- 9:12AM, HairlessThoctar wrote: