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Switch to Forum Live View [D&D 4E] Champions of the Nentir Vale (β) - Chapter 4: The Village That Time Forgot
8 months ago  ::  Oct 05, 2012 - 2:21PM #81
Rich_The_Mad
Date Joined: Aug 27, 2009
Posts: 3,029
The shifter shrugs.  He never really understood those that planted down and built a wall around themselves - and this proved that. 

If we don't find her, they'd rather have an orcus-worshipped shapechanging wench that can raise the dead in their midst than have suspiscions of one 'nother.

"Seems fair enough."
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8 months ago  ::  Oct 05, 2012 - 6:41PM #82
jrmabie
Date Joined: Nov 14, 2010
Posts: 4,711
Armalia makes a humpf noise, but nods.  She's not in the least bit impressed by the woman's skill with a knife, nor with her threats.  Show off.  The changer's already been here, heck, might be here still.  We've already fought with her.  These two wouldn't last a day with all the trouble that Sireal could stir up in their town.  They aren't ready for that kind of chaos.


She eyes the man for a moment, and then decides to take a chance.  "I do have one more question:  she used a teleportation ring somewhere close to here.  Yer boyos din' happen to see anythin' did they?"
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8 months ago  ::  Oct 05, 2012 - 11:45PM #83
swmabie
Date Joined: Dec 8, 2009
Posts: 8,213
It's Burne's turn to answer.  "We only keep a general eye on the Shrine, to make sure nothing major's been coming through.  However, our men haven't noticed any activity out of the ordinary; just the occasional person stopping by to pay their respects."  He shrugs.  "If there's any other circles active in the area, I don't know of them...."

Rufus adds, "Not that anyone would stop you, but you can always check the Shrine yourselves; it's only dusk out, a torch or something should give you plenty of light to see by."  She smirks, and almost sounds patronizing.  "Not that you'd likely find anything, but it would settle your minds that you've done everything you could to find her."
Help improve the Forums: Learn some Logic!
A handy dandy list of fallacies: Which have you just committed? Show

• Ad Hominem — Attacking the person's circumstances, not addressing the argument.
Ad Hominem Abusive (Personal Attack) — Insulting the person, not addressing the argument.
• Ad Hominem Tu Quoque — Saying the person's inconsistent, not addressing the argument.
Appeal to Authority/Belief/Common Practice/Consequence of a Belief/Emotion/Fear/Flattery/Novelty/Pity/Popularity/Ridicule/Spite/Tradition — Using emotion instead of Fact.
Bandwagon — Use of peer pressure.
• Begging the Question — Assuming premises which haven't necessarily been agreed to.
Biased Sample — Using a sampling which may not properly represent the whole.
• Burden of Proof — Shifting it to the wrong side.
• Circumstantial Ad Hominem — Attacking the person's interests in supporting their argument.
• Composition — Assuming that the whole has the same qualities as individual parts.
• Confusing Cause & Effect — Assuming that one thing causes another because they appear in conjunction.
• Division — Assuming that the individual parts have the same qualities as the whole.
• False Dilemma — Assuming that only two options exist.
• Gambler's Fallacy — Assuming the odds have changed because of past occurances
• Genetic — Assuming a perceived defect in the origin of a claim is proof of a defect in the claim.
• Guilt by Association — Attacking others who agree with the claim.
• Hasty Generalization — Assuming a quality based on too small a sample size.
• Ignoring the Common Cause — Assuming there is no outside cause of two connected things.
• Middle Ground — Assuming the midpoint of two extremes must be correct.
• Misleading Vividness — Assuming a colorful anecdote outweighs statistical evidence.
• Poisoning the Well — Using unprovable claims about the person instead of addressing the argument.
• Post Hoc — Assuming that something caused something else simply because it happened first.
• Questionable Cause — Assuming that one thing causes another.
• Red Herring — Using irrelevant evidence to divert a discussion.
• Relativist Fallacy — Asserting that a claim may be true for some but not for the speaker.
• Slippery Slope — Assuming the inevitability of one event based on another.
• Special Pleading — Claiming exemption without justification.
• Spotlight — Assuming individuals that get the most attention to be indicative of the whole.
• Straw Man — Misrepresenting the opposing argument.
• Two Wrongs Make a Right — Justifying something unethical/immoral as response or pre-emption to something else unethical/immoral.

Response to those who like to compare 4e to a Video Game Show

Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:49PM, Rogue_Elendae wrote:

Also, I find that the "D&D 4e is like an MMO" argument is often a sign of someone who is deliberately being obtuse and/or is potentially ignorant of actual MMO play.  As someone who only ended a 6-year World of Warcraft addiction a year ago, I can say that most of your bullet points actually don't match up to the truth of it.

In D&D 4e, you can choose a hybrid, you can choose to play one class as though it were another (people played Warlords as Bards frequently, when the edition first came out, and Rangers were refluffed to Monks), you can focus your class on its secondary role (a Warlock who is more controller than striker, for instance), you can multiclass, and you can create a particular concept (a mounted lancer, a charger, etc.) within the mechanics via feats, choice of powers, and choice of skills.  You decide which set of stats you use--are you a Chaladin, Straladin, or Baladin?--and you have ultimate influence on how your character turns out in the end.  Yes, powers require you to be using a particular weapon within your class's available selection, but the powers are not themselves tied to the gear.  Powers tied to weapons or armor are typically powers that belong to the item, not to the character class that's most likely to use it.

Yes, there are only so many powers available, and these will be what you do in battle; this is all that the designers created.  Yes, there is a time-frame in which they can be used; this has always been the case, even in the days of Vancian casting.  Yes, there are suggested builds, but you can routinely ignore those if it pleases you; the only parts of a class you have to take are the class features, and even those have options at this point.  But the only way that this can be considered at all conflatable with MMO character building/playing is if you are deliberately ignoring all of that.

In WoW, you choose a class and you're done.  No multiclassing or hybridization, no way to mimic one class with careful building of a different one.  There is a firm dividing line on what is a WoW class.  No secondary roles or creative concepts, either; you're going to be what the class sets out to be, and that's it.  You'll always have the same stat allocation as another of your class, because you get set numbers as you level up, and you've got at best four options--and that's only the Druid class--to build, and if you plan on running dungeons, particularly heroic level ones, or raiding, you'd better not even think of deviating from the single defined best build on the talent tree for what you want to do.  It was only recently, with the complete tear-down and recreation of talent trees for Mists of Pandaria, that there was a concept of there being anything but the one best build that people who calculated such mechanical advantages (the folks on Elitist Jerks, for example), and the people who did things like achieve "World First" at various top-tier raids set precedent for.

Also, no class will ever not have a specific set of powers; all Priests in WoW have the same baseline, with deviation only based upon their talent tree specialization, where a D&D4e player could take whatever power in their class pleases them.  Any Retribution Paladin will be the same as any other in terms of powers, because that is what a RetPally is.  Any Assassination Rogue will always have the same powers as another, etc.  All powers are always on specific cool-downs, but will always be there when they start a battle, where a 4e PC might enter an encounter with only At-Wills, or without their Daily powers due to what plot has done up until that point.  Furthermore, no power that is not already specifically tied to an item will ever "require" you have that item, to my recollection.  Classes get all their powers based on class; gear only gives bonuses to stats, possibly cuts down cast times for abilities or cooldowns, grants temporary extra bonuses to stats (the latter two most often on the raid tier equipment), and on rare occassions an extra power that may or may not be valuable, as some are only special effects instead of valuable abilities.



Most honest/open response on why DDN needs to be Inclusive Show

Mar 31, 2013 -- 8:40PM, Emerikol wrote:

I've always felt it is in the best interests of D&D to be as inclusive across the playerbase as they can be and still have a game.   I've never felt though that making a game that was inclusive within a group was very useful or even desirable.   DM's and players can decide amongst themselves what options or restrictions they want for their games.  I tend to lean to the DM to make most of those decisions but again that is a group specific thing.

Having said that.  I get the distinct impression that there are a lot of players on these boards who come from groups that generally ruled against their own desires.  It's almost like they are an oppressed minority from a gaming perspective.   I also get the impression that they tend to advocate against things that if available their fellow group members might like and vote them down on.

Do a lot of you feel this way?

Just for clarification...here are some examples...
1.  Alignment restrictions as an option.
2.  Alignment Mechanics
3.  Martial healing
4.  Races being included or not.

and so forth.  Thoughts?


Mar 31, 2013 -- 9:43PM, Authw8 wrote:

I know my perspective is not that I often play at tables where my likes are not represented. Instead, my perspective comes from the many years I spent being a bad DM. I was a bad DM because my guidance came from the books, and the books gave bad advice. The books told me that alignment was a useful approach to roleplaying, so I went with it even though it felt kind of weird to me. Now I know that, at least in my style of running games, alignment destroys rp. I trusted the books to give good advice, and it messed up my game. Now I'm much more mature as a DM, so I know how to take advice with a grain of salt. And I still learn new stuff every session I run.

I don't want future DMs to go through my problems again. There's a big enough DM shortage as it is. DMing well is hard.

The biggest thing I had to unlearn in my process of becoming a good DM was the idea that the game is a simulation of a world. I understand many DMs prefer a more simulationist approach, although I am always skeptical simply because I would have said the same thing until I learned and grew as a DM. This doesn't mean their approach is completely invalid, but it still gives me a personal twinge when I see a regression back to 3e era sim style gaming.

I also have noticed many groups where one or two old-school players run a whole group's playstyle because the newer players aren't even aware there are other ways of doing things. The newer players tell me stories of things they hated in the session, and I end up explaining to them how those things they hate are very fixable, and in fact are fixed in the newer edition of the game their older players have told them is terrible.

In regard to things like martial healing, I don't think it's necessary for it to be in the game for the game to be fun. However, the attitude that says martial healing is terrible and shouldn't exist is an attitude that, to me, reveals a wrongheaded approach to the game. Therefore, my fight for it to be an option is to help legitimize the more narrative approach that I think is what most players want, but many don't know is possible, because they've never been exposed to it.


Why D&D will continue to fail economically. Show

Apr 22, 2013 -- 12:40AM, Mand12 wrote:

Mobile/tablet is not supported by WotC.  They're stuck in the past, with no coherent vision of how technology could benefit their product.

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8 months ago  ::  Oct 06, 2012 - 6:35AM #84
RgAgsThMch
Date Joined: May 4, 2007
Posts: 687
Akmenos thinks of something and speaks up after a quick bow.

Are we to receive a badge of authority, or will your people believe we act with your blessing in good faith? 
 
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8 months ago  ::  Oct 06, 2012 - 8:19AM #85
swmabie
Date Joined: Dec 8, 2009
Posts: 8,213
Rufus stifles... a giggle?  "You won't need any.  You clearly haven't been to a small town before.  Before the night's out, the residents will know that you're looking for someone, and that we've allowed it.  They'll figure out the rest as you conduct your investigation."
Help improve the Forums: Learn some Logic!
A handy dandy list of fallacies: Which have you just committed? Show

• Ad Hominem — Attacking the person's circumstances, not addressing the argument.
Ad Hominem Abusive (Personal Attack) — Insulting the person, not addressing the argument.
• Ad Hominem Tu Quoque — Saying the person's inconsistent, not addressing the argument.
Appeal to Authority/Belief/Common Practice/Consequence of a Belief/Emotion/Fear/Flattery/Novelty/Pity/Popularity/Ridicule/Spite/Tradition — Using emotion instead of Fact.
Bandwagon — Use of peer pressure.
• Begging the Question — Assuming premises which haven't necessarily been agreed to.
Biased Sample — Using a sampling which may not properly represent the whole.
• Burden of Proof — Shifting it to the wrong side.
• Circumstantial Ad Hominem — Attacking the person's interests in supporting their argument.
• Composition — Assuming that the whole has the same qualities as individual parts.
• Confusing Cause & Effect — Assuming that one thing causes another because they appear in conjunction.
• Division — Assuming that the individual parts have the same qualities as the whole.
• False Dilemma — Assuming that only two options exist.
• Gambler's Fallacy — Assuming the odds have changed because of past occurances
• Genetic — Assuming a perceived defect in the origin of a claim is proof of a defect in the claim.
• Guilt by Association — Attacking others who agree with the claim.
• Hasty Generalization — Assuming a quality based on too small a sample size.
• Ignoring the Common Cause — Assuming there is no outside cause of two connected things.
• Middle Ground — Assuming the midpoint of two extremes must be correct.
• Misleading Vividness — Assuming a colorful anecdote outweighs statistical evidence.
• Poisoning the Well — Using unprovable claims about the person instead of addressing the argument.
• Post Hoc — Assuming that something caused something else simply because it happened first.
• Questionable Cause — Assuming that one thing causes another.
• Red Herring — Using irrelevant evidence to divert a discussion.
• Relativist Fallacy — Asserting that a claim may be true for some but not for the speaker.
• Slippery Slope — Assuming the inevitability of one event based on another.
• Special Pleading — Claiming exemption without justification.
• Spotlight — Assuming individuals that get the most attention to be indicative of the whole.
• Straw Man — Misrepresenting the opposing argument.
• Two Wrongs Make a Right — Justifying something unethical/immoral as response or pre-emption to something else unethical/immoral.

Response to those who like to compare 4e to a Video Game Show

Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:49PM, Rogue_Elendae wrote:

Also, I find that the "D&D 4e is like an MMO" argument is often a sign of someone who is deliberately being obtuse and/or is potentially ignorant of actual MMO play.  As someone who only ended a 6-year World of Warcraft addiction a year ago, I can say that most of your bullet points actually don't match up to the truth of it.

In D&D 4e, you can choose a hybrid, you can choose to play one class as though it were another (people played Warlords as Bards frequently, when the edition first came out, and Rangers were refluffed to Monks), you can focus your class on its secondary role (a Warlock who is more controller than striker, for instance), you can multiclass, and you can create a particular concept (a mounted lancer, a charger, etc.) within the mechanics via feats, choice of powers, and choice of skills.  You decide which set of stats you use--are you a Chaladin, Straladin, or Baladin?--and you have ultimate influence on how your character turns out in the end.  Yes, powers require you to be using a particular weapon within your class's available selection, but the powers are not themselves tied to the gear.  Powers tied to weapons or armor are typically powers that belong to the item, not to the character class that's most likely to use it.

Yes, there are only so many powers available, and these will be what you do in battle; this is all that the designers created.  Yes, there is a time-frame in which they can be used; this has always been the case, even in the days of Vancian casting.  Yes, there are suggested builds, but you can routinely ignore those if it pleases you; the only parts of a class you have to take are the class features, and even those have options at this point.  But the only way that this can be considered at all conflatable with MMO character building/playing is if you are deliberately ignoring all of that.

In WoW, you choose a class and you're done.  No multiclassing or hybridization, no way to mimic one class with careful building of a different one.  There is a firm dividing line on what is a WoW class.  No secondary roles or creative concepts, either; you're going to be what the class sets out to be, and that's it.  You'll always have the same stat allocation as another of your class, because you get set numbers as you level up, and you've got at best four options--and that's only the Druid class--to build, and if you plan on running dungeons, particularly heroic level ones, or raiding, you'd better not even think of deviating from the single defined best build on the talent tree for what you want to do.  It was only recently, with the complete tear-down and recreation of talent trees for Mists of Pandaria, that there was a concept of there being anything but the one best build that people who calculated such mechanical advantages (the folks on Elitist Jerks, for example), and the people who did things like achieve "World First" at various top-tier raids set precedent for.

Also, no class will ever not have a specific set of powers; all Priests in WoW have the same baseline, with deviation only based upon their talent tree specialization, where a D&D4e player could take whatever power in their class pleases them.  Any Retribution Paladin will be the same as any other in terms of powers, because that is what a RetPally is.  Any Assassination Rogue will always have the same powers as another, etc.  All powers are always on specific cool-downs, but will always be there when they start a battle, where a 4e PC might enter an encounter with only At-Wills, or without their Daily powers due to what plot has done up until that point.  Furthermore, no power that is not already specifically tied to an item will ever "require" you have that item, to my recollection.  Classes get all their powers based on class; gear only gives bonuses to stats, possibly cuts down cast times for abilities or cooldowns, grants temporary extra bonuses to stats (the latter two most often on the raid tier equipment), and on rare occassions an extra power that may or may not be valuable, as some are only special effects instead of valuable abilities.



Most honest/open response on why DDN needs to be Inclusive Show

Mar 31, 2013 -- 8:40PM, Emerikol wrote:

I've always felt it is in the best interests of D&D to be as inclusive across the playerbase as they can be and still have a game.   I've never felt though that making a game that was inclusive within a group was very useful or even desirable.   DM's and players can decide amongst themselves what options or restrictions they want for their games.  I tend to lean to the DM to make most of those decisions but again that is a group specific thing.

Having said that.  I get the distinct impression that there are a lot of players on these boards who come from groups that generally ruled against their own desires.  It's almost like they are an oppressed minority from a gaming perspective.   I also get the impression that they tend to advocate against things that if available their fellow group members might like and vote them down on.

Do a lot of you feel this way?

Just for clarification...here are some examples...
1.  Alignment restrictions as an option.
2.  Alignment Mechanics
3.  Martial healing
4.  Races being included or not.

and so forth.  Thoughts?


Mar 31, 2013 -- 9:43PM, Authw8 wrote:

I know my perspective is not that I often play at tables where my likes are not represented. Instead, my perspective comes from the many years I spent being a bad DM. I was a bad DM because my guidance came from the books, and the books gave bad advice. The books told me that alignment was a useful approach to roleplaying, so I went with it even though it felt kind of weird to me. Now I know that, at least in my style of running games, alignment destroys rp. I trusted the books to give good advice, and it messed up my game. Now I'm much more mature as a DM, so I know how to take advice with a grain of salt. And I still learn new stuff every session I run.

I don't want future DMs to go through my problems again. There's a big enough DM shortage as it is. DMing well is hard.

The biggest thing I had to unlearn in my process of becoming a good DM was the idea that the game is a simulation of a world. I understand many DMs prefer a more simulationist approach, although I am always skeptical simply because I would have said the same thing until I learned and grew as a DM. This doesn't mean their approach is completely invalid, but it still gives me a personal twinge when I see a regression back to 3e era sim style gaming.

I also have noticed many groups where one or two old-school players run a whole group's playstyle because the newer players aren't even aware there are other ways of doing things. The newer players tell me stories of things they hated in the session, and I end up explaining to them how those things they hate are very fixable, and in fact are fixed in the newer edition of the game their older players have told them is terrible.

In regard to things like martial healing, I don't think it's necessary for it to be in the game for the game to be fun. However, the attitude that says martial healing is terrible and shouldn't exist is an attitude that, to me, reveals a wrongheaded approach to the game. Therefore, my fight for it to be an option is to help legitimize the more narrative approach that I think is what most players want, but many don't know is possible, because they've never been exposed to it.


Why D&D will continue to fail economically. Show

Apr 22, 2013 -- 12:40AM, Mand12 wrote:

Mobile/tablet is not supported by WotC.  They're stuck in the past, with no coherent vision of how technology could benefit their product.

Quick Reply
Cancel
8 months ago  ::  Oct 06, 2012 - 8:49PM #86
jrmabie
Date Joined: Nov 14, 2010
Posts: 4,711
Once clear of the two lordlings, Armalia clears her throat and looks at her companions.  "I like Flint's idea of goin' on into the swamp tonight.  That druid ain' gonna last if'n he don' get his vine.  We can check things out there and then start back here in the mornin'.  Sound good to you lot?"
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8 months ago  ::  Oct 07, 2012 - 12:26AM #87
RgAgsThMch
Date Joined: May 4, 2007
Posts: 687
Agreed.

Akmenos forces a smile.  Going into a swamp in the middle of the night to find a demon consorting changeling that raises the dead didn't sound like a great idea, but he wasn't going to go against the group on this.  He knew how much it ment to them to find her, regardless of the pretense of finding a cure for the Druid.
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8 months ago  ::  Oct 07, 2012 - 7:45PM #88
Orbin
Date Joined: Feb 9, 2007
Posts: 3,257
"I also agree," Rairdon says.  He was quite pleased with how everyone dealt with the two guardians of the Western Border.

Smiling at Burne and Rufus he says, "Thank you for allowing us this opportunity to work within the lands you guard.  We will make good use of our three days."  He pauses then adds, "One last thing before we depart.  You made references to gossip and suspicion.  There can be grains of truth within such things and though it is not proof of anything, would you be willing to share this with us?"

Mechanics Show  
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8 months ago  ::  Oct 07, 2012 - 10:09PM #89
swmabie
Date Joined: Dec 8, 2009
Posts: 8,213
The two glance at each other, Burne nodding slightly, then Rufus speaking up.  "Just two minor things."  She holds out one finger.  "There's been a delay in shipping coming up from the mountains, from Stonefang Pass.  Dwarves are usually tight about being on schedule — no offense meant — but something's up down there."  She holds out a second.  "There's been reports of highwaymen not far from here, on the road from Moonstair.  But every time we've gone out ahunting them, we've not found them yet; and they've been rather selective about what they take — meaning they've either had some very good luck, or they know what's coming."  She shrugs.  "Maybe they're nothing.  Maybe they're something.  Around here, our biggest worry's those fellows over in the Trollhaunt deciding to stop beating each other up and coming over to see what's on the menu for supper.  Her ladyship's decided to do something about it, for once, which is where we come in.  We need to get this place built and fortified.  We don't have time or forces needed to deal with copper-ante stuff."  She looks directly at Flint.  "Yes, we know: this gal of yours ain't small potatoes, she's a big problem.  But until she does something to us, or somehow unites the trolls under one king again — not something that seems to be a priority for her Lord Orcus, I wouldn't think — then we've got better deer to hunt."
Help improve the Forums: Learn some Logic!
A handy dandy list of fallacies: Which have you just committed? Show

• Ad Hominem — Attacking the person's circumstances, not addressing the argument.
Ad Hominem Abusive (Personal Attack) — Insulting the person, not addressing the argument.
• Ad Hominem Tu Quoque — Saying the person's inconsistent, not addressing the argument.
Appeal to Authority/Belief/Common Practice/Consequence of a Belief/Emotion/Fear/Flattery/Novelty/Pity/Popularity/Ridicule/Spite/Tradition — Using emotion instead of Fact.
Bandwagon — Use of peer pressure.
• Begging the Question — Assuming premises which haven't necessarily been agreed to.
Biased Sample — Using a sampling which may not properly represent the whole.
• Burden of Proof — Shifting it to the wrong side.
• Circumstantial Ad Hominem — Attacking the person's interests in supporting their argument.
• Composition — Assuming that the whole has the same qualities as individual parts.
• Confusing Cause & Effect — Assuming that one thing causes another because they appear in conjunction.
• Division — Assuming that the individual parts have the same qualities as the whole.
• False Dilemma — Assuming that only two options exist.
• Gambler's Fallacy — Assuming the odds have changed because of past occurances
• Genetic — Assuming a perceived defect in the origin of a claim is proof of a defect in the claim.
• Guilt by Association — Attacking others who agree with the claim.
• Hasty Generalization — Assuming a quality based on too small a sample size.
• Ignoring the Common Cause — Assuming there is no outside cause of two connected things.
• Middle Ground — Assuming the midpoint of two extremes must be correct.
• Misleading Vividness — Assuming a colorful anecdote outweighs statistical evidence.
• Poisoning the Well — Using unprovable claims about the person instead of addressing the argument.
• Post Hoc — Assuming that something caused something else simply because it happened first.
• Questionable Cause — Assuming that one thing causes another.
• Red Herring — Using irrelevant evidence to divert a discussion.
• Relativist Fallacy — Asserting that a claim may be true for some but not for the speaker.
• Slippery Slope — Assuming the inevitability of one event based on another.
• Special Pleading — Claiming exemption without justification.
• Spotlight — Assuming individuals that get the most attention to be indicative of the whole.
• Straw Man — Misrepresenting the opposing argument.
• Two Wrongs Make a Right — Justifying something unethical/immoral as response or pre-emption to something else unethical/immoral.

Response to those who like to compare 4e to a Video Game Show

Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:49PM, Rogue_Elendae wrote:

Also, I find that the "D&D 4e is like an MMO" argument is often a sign of someone who is deliberately being obtuse and/or is potentially ignorant of actual MMO play.  As someone who only ended a 6-year World of Warcraft addiction a year ago, I can say that most of your bullet points actually don't match up to the truth of it.

In D&D 4e, you can choose a hybrid, you can choose to play one class as though it were another (people played Warlords as Bards frequently, when the edition first came out, and Rangers were refluffed to Monks), you can focus your class on its secondary role (a Warlock who is more controller than striker, for instance), you can multiclass, and you can create a particular concept (a mounted lancer, a charger, etc.) within the mechanics via feats, choice of powers, and choice of skills.  You decide which set of stats you use--are you a Chaladin, Straladin, or Baladin?--and you have ultimate influence on how your character turns out in the end.  Yes, powers require you to be using a particular weapon within your class's available selection, but the powers are not themselves tied to the gear.  Powers tied to weapons or armor are typically powers that belong to the item, not to the character class that's most likely to use it.

Yes, there are only so many powers available, and these will be what you do in battle; this is all that the designers created.  Yes, there is a time-frame in which they can be used; this has always been the case, even in the days of Vancian casting.  Yes, there are suggested builds, but you can routinely ignore those if it pleases you; the only parts of a class you have to take are the class features, and even those have options at this point.  But the only way that this can be considered at all conflatable with MMO character building/playing is if you are deliberately ignoring all of that.

In WoW, you choose a class and you're done.  No multiclassing or hybridization, no way to mimic one class with careful building of a different one.  There is a firm dividing line on what is a WoW class.  No secondary roles or creative concepts, either; you're going to be what the class sets out to be, and that's it.  You'll always have the same stat allocation as another of your class, because you get set numbers as you level up, and you've got at best four options--and that's only the Druid class--to build, and if you plan on running dungeons, particularly heroic level ones, or raiding, you'd better not even think of deviating from the single defined best build on the talent tree for what you want to do.  It was only recently, with the complete tear-down and recreation of talent trees for Mists of Pandaria, that there was a concept of there being anything but the one best build that people who calculated such mechanical advantages (the folks on Elitist Jerks, for example), and the people who did things like achieve "World First" at various top-tier raids set precedent for.

Also, no class will ever not have a specific set of powers; all Priests in WoW have the same baseline, with deviation only based upon their talent tree specialization, where a D&D4e player could take whatever power in their class pleases them.  Any Retribution Paladin will be the same as any other in terms of powers, because that is what a RetPally is.  Any Assassination Rogue will always have the same powers as another, etc.  All powers are always on specific cool-downs, but will always be there when they start a battle, where a 4e PC might enter an encounter with only At-Wills, or without their Daily powers due to what plot has done up until that point.  Furthermore, no power that is not already specifically tied to an item will ever "require" you have that item, to my recollection.  Classes get all their powers based on class; gear only gives bonuses to stats, possibly cuts down cast times for abilities or cooldowns, grants temporary extra bonuses to stats (the latter two most often on the raid tier equipment), and on rare occassions an extra power that may or may not be valuable, as some are only special effects instead of valuable abilities.



Most honest/open response on why DDN needs to be Inclusive Show

Mar 31, 2013 -- 8:40PM, Emerikol wrote:

I've always felt it is in the best interests of D&D to be as inclusive across the playerbase as they can be and still have a game.   I've never felt though that making a game that was inclusive within a group was very useful or even desirable.   DM's and players can decide amongst themselves what options or restrictions they want for their games.  I tend to lean to the DM to make most of those decisions but again that is a group specific thing.

Having said that.  I get the distinct impression that there are a lot of players on these boards who come from groups that generally ruled against their own desires.  It's almost like they are an oppressed minority from a gaming perspective.   I also get the impression that they tend to advocate against things that if available their fellow group members might like and vote them down on.

Do a lot of you feel this way?

Just for clarification...here are some examples...
1.  Alignment restrictions as an option.
2.  Alignment Mechanics
3.  Martial healing
4.  Races being included or not.

and so forth.  Thoughts?


Mar 31, 2013 -- 9:43PM, Authw8 wrote:

I know my perspective is not that I often play at tables where my likes are not represented. Instead, my perspective comes from the many years I spent being a bad DM. I was a bad DM because my guidance came from the books, and the books gave bad advice. The books told me that alignment was a useful approach to roleplaying, so I went with it even though it felt kind of weird to me. Now I know that, at least in my style of running games, alignment destroys rp. I trusted the books to give good advice, and it messed up my game. Now I'm much more mature as a DM, so I know how to take advice with a grain of salt. And I still learn new stuff every session I run.

I don't want future DMs to go through my problems again. There's a big enough DM shortage as it is. DMing well is hard.

The biggest thing I had to unlearn in my process of becoming a good DM was the idea that the game is a simulation of a world. I understand many DMs prefer a more simulationist approach, although I am always skeptical simply because I would have said the same thing until I learned and grew as a DM. This doesn't mean their approach is completely invalid, but it still gives me a personal twinge when I see a regression back to 3e era sim style gaming.

I also have noticed many groups where one or two old-school players run a whole group's playstyle because the newer players aren't even aware there are other ways of doing things. The newer players tell me stories of things they hated in the session, and I end up explaining to them how those things they hate are very fixable, and in fact are fixed in the newer edition of the game their older players have told them is terrible.

In regard to things like martial healing, I don't think it's necessary for it to be in the game for the game to be fun. However, the attitude that says martial healing is terrible and shouldn't exist is an attitude that, to me, reveals a wrongheaded approach to the game. Therefore, my fight for it to be an option is to help legitimize the more narrative approach that I think is what most players want, but many don't know is possible, because they've never been exposed to it.


Why D&D will continue to fail economically. Show

Apr 22, 2013 -- 12:40AM, Mand12 wrote:

Mobile/tablet is not supported by WotC.  They're stuck in the past, with no coherent vision of how technology could benefit their product.

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8 months ago  ::  Oct 08, 2012 - 9:15PM #90
jrmabie
Date Joined: Nov 14, 2010
Posts: 4,711
Armalia doesn't have a clue as to why the woman would be fussing about dwarves keeping a tight schedule.  Business flourished when shipments were punctual, and dwarves had a reputation to uphold.  Course, she wouldna know it, being all fine and flowery like she is, she thinks derisively.

"Ifn' we see highwaymen or trolls, we bash'em.  Got it."  The dwarf turns and begins to herd the menfolk towards the door.  "Let's get goin' lads.  More light we have to see by before nightfall, the better we kin find things what need to be found."
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