|
2 years ago ::
Mar 29, 2011 - 7:34PM
#51
|
Date Joined:
Jan 11, 2009
|
Sorry, I don't know why, but I keep thinking that if you move half your movement you don't take a stealth penalty. Will have to remember its only 2 squares.
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Mar 29, 2011 - 8:31PM
#52
|
Date Joined:
Jul 18, 2009
|
Hey guys, I truly appreciate the feedback and comments. PaulO, if there ever was a concern you should have definitely mentioned it a bit ealier, please don't wait until the game becomes totally unenjoyable, the whole point is for us to have fun. I actually appologetically PM'ed you when Ekspery got caught so quickly in the Inn, so you know I am open to feedback and want to check in once in a while to make sure people are OK with what's going on.
I enjoy Ekspery quite a lot so I'd be sorry to see him go.
Now Vsteel & Mighty's comments are right on the money (and I can tell that Vsteel knows where this whole thing is going): I tried to warn at the begining of the story that this scenario is VERY rough on the characters/players, because getting a whole sense of helplessness and desperation is part of the introduction to the brutal world of Athas. In 2e, "Freedom" was the 1st introductory scenario. If you read reviews of that scenario, I guess once we are done since I don't encourage it now due to spoilers, you will see that the frustration you express right now has been part of the negative feedback some people have had about it. At the end of this scenario, players/characters are supposed to despise slavery / Templars / Sorcerer Kings etc. The scenario is split in 6 parts with a bunch of encounters in each. You are on part 2 with a few more encounters to play and the whole feeling of "no matter what you do, it does not matter" is 100% part of part 1 & 2 -you are prisonners and by definition have very little freedom of choice- and I understand it can be frustrating for some players.
Now, I may be rusty because I have not DM'ed in 10 years but in my defense I do think an additional layer of difficulty is added by the PbP format. I have DM'ed this in live sessions 10 years ago, and obviously when it's live you can see the body language and reaction of the players and you can adapt when you see boredom or frustration getting in the way... Here I honestly had no idea, so it's good that you point it out.
Additionally, the game time vs real time comment that Mighty made is correct... You guys have been enslaved for a while and probably will be for another while but things should open up a little bit. In real time it does feel like an eternity I guess.
Now that I look back, it is true that Ekspery did not get a whole lot of luck throughout and I will admit I did not do a character by character analysis of how it looks from each player's perspective. I was actually more concerned about Klockwork/Iandak since he was new and walking right into this desperate situation... I did not see that PaulO/Ekspery could have a sucky start to the adventure (but I see why now, and to add insult to injury you are the one getting whipped and you intimidation would not stop the sun-striken dwarf, sorry!).
Now on some specific items
First the Inn: Well, now, I guess you all obviously know that the whole point was to enslave everybody... it is the starting point of the adventure and it will tie-in nicely with the meta-plot of the city in the end.
Ekspery's Inn encounter was designed for 2 characters and we were missing Saranikta... Instead of leaving you alone I should have consolidated it with Tak-Tha and Zaffa but two things stopped me: 1- I wanted to give Ekspery a chance to try and contact the Veiled Alliance since you were pushing in that direction previously. 2- I had worked hard on that Inn map and really wanted to use it, but I was stupid to not just let it go... I had designed all the other rooms to let you escape and run through the owners' appartments.
What happened next is the combination of two bad elements: 1- Very bad rolls (or good rolls for the bad guys)... For full disclosure, I try to NOT 'fudge' the dice at all... The ONLY time I have done so since we started Sand Raiders was round 1 of the final fight underground with the silt runners where I one-shotted Gotho before he even did anything... THAT was not fun. Maybe I should have fudged some rolls to make it more fun. 2- I was worried about the consequences of you using arcane magic and then you end up getting caught... In Tyr, if you use arcane magic and then get captured by a Templar, you will get tortured (for names in the Veilled Alliance) and executed... not a great outcome.
If you guys have suggestions here on how I could have managed that aspect in the Inn, I am all ears... (not just rethorically I do mean it, gimme ideas!)
Healing the Half-Giant: Well I don't know what to say... NPCs do not have surges, I thought you knew that... Probably another example of a situation that a live session would have avoided ("I use my healing power" "ok but he will only move and get no healing" "wait let me do something else then!")... BUT you need to know that the shift you applied to him made a big difference because it then prevented me from using the nasty "double dealing" attack, so the use of the power did accomplish something very meaningful... At the time I thought this was why you did it and sacrificed the healing benefit just for the sake of shifting the Half Giant. If that was a big problem, again you could have told me and I would have let you change your action (but one more time, I did not think about that because I thought you had actually smartly played and this was all on purpose!)
Fighting the Elves: Well I will disagree a bit here about lack of choices: 1- You did not have to jump inthe fight at all. Both individually or as a group. If everybody had stayed out of it, you would have witnessed Urrgos getting killed. (FYI, without giving too much spoiler, there will be other situations like that. You don't have to get involved if you don't want to, depending on what kind of "hero" you want to be). 2- For those who could not put their hand on decent weapons they could have spent more rounds looking for them. 3- You in-combat tactics DID matter. had you made bad tactic choices, there could have been party members dead.
The one part that is "no matter what we do..." is the fact that guards showed-up to break-up the fight.
Now... I would like your feedback on how you (everybody, not just PaulO) think the fight with the Elves should have ended. You are all captive, and a fight errupts... at some point guards will show up and break the fight, no? Guards will be well armed and have enough "punch" to prevent a general riot. Did you guys want the fight to go all the way to the end? i.e. all Elves dead? I could have done that but it felt less realistic to me because the Templars, Guards, etc are DESPERATE to complete the Ziggurat on time and want to break-up fights not because the care about the people involved, but because they need the workforce.
I invite more feedback on my DM'ing and things you would have liked to see done differently, please post more
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Mar 29, 2011 - 8:32PM
#53
|
Date Joined:
Jul 18, 2009
|
Wow my post is insanely long... Probably repeating myself in there, sorry! @Vsteel... no biggie, you get your super one-shot rock kill anyway 
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Mar 29, 2011 - 8:47PM
#54
|
Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2010
|
Honestly I think the elf fight ended basically the most positive way it could have ended for us. We all survived. Urrgos lived. I think in context that was a successful encounter.
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Mar 29, 2011 - 8:51PM
#55
|
Date Joined:
Jul 18, 2009
|
There was indeed no better outcome and I consider this a total success, even if you are stilll all slaves... with a little surprise for you in IC now Mighty  mwahahahah
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Mar 30, 2011 - 6:59PM
#56
|
|
|
As of right now, I'm perfectly content with the DMing. I see the hopelessness in the game, although when I entered that's what I was honestly expecting from my hearsay of Dark Sun. For me personally, it's refreshing as the story is taking a completely different tactic from my dozen other games which follow a more D&D route of hack-n-slash, with varying degrees of story.
The only way I can think of for improvements for the next go around, would've been for a viable escape route for Ekspery since he was by himself. I think it would've been an interesting tactic to have someone on the outside, trying to get in, or at least get the rest of us out. That's what Mika intended, although a variety of things happened to nix it.
A liar will not be believed, even when he speaks the truth.Mafia
Show
[PROMO] The Siege of Balginor: Raz Putin, Town-Aligned > Lynched Day 3 ~ Town Win! [INT+] MtG Custom Mafia Series Innistrad: Reaper from the Abyss, Town-Aligned > Survived! ~ Town Win! [Player's Choice] Mythos: Richard Upton Pickman, Vanilla/Ghoul, Town Aligned > Vig'd Night 4 ~ Town Loss! [BEGINNER] Revolutionary War Mafia: Vanilla, Town-Aligned > Killed Night 3 ~ Town Loss!
[EXPERT] 2011 Invitational - Shattered Galaxy: Assist/BuM
Characters
Show
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Mar 30, 2011 - 8:24PM
#57
|
Date Joined:
Jul 18, 2009
|
@Vsteel on your question in IC: yes you all reach a Milestone... so + 1 Action Point for everybody. I had mentioned we would get theer but then I forgot to type it, so good catch.
@Alexandr Well there was an escape route for Ekspery but... there was disastrous dice rolling round 1... the only way would have been for me to fudge the dice, which I really hate to do as a DM, because I know that once I start doing that I may do it too often and that makes for artifical encounters eventually. So far I only fudged the fight when I one-shot Gotho in the first round... I thought a death-before-you-can-do-anything warrants DM intervention... having Eksperry trapped right away was definitely uncool but I though not worthy of DM intervention... but I guess that was a mistake now that I have the benefit of hindsight...
Now are you saying you would have preferred to keep one player on the outside?
Edit: Tak-Tha should gain 12 hp not 11 (7+5)
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Mar 30, 2011 - 8:36PM
#58
|
Date Joined:
Jan 11, 2009
|
Ah thought Eskpery's charisma was 18 thanks.
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Mar 30, 2011 - 10:04PM
#59
|
Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2010
|
Thanks for the replies and thoughts everyone. It has been a lot of food for thought. And I've been mulling over it trying to see if I could put my finger on what exactly I'm trying to say and I think the comment about having someone on the outside helped me realize.
I definitely think it would have been fun to have a character on the outside. Why? Because it gives us some decisions to weigh and think about, and that's exciting to me.
When we were in the earlier missions, we ran into situations that required us to weigh decisions, whether it was a part of a skill challenge like getting the wagons through the sandstorm or what to say to the other caravan or simply how to proceed to the bottom cellar and get the barrels to the wagon and the wagon fixed without too much suspicion. Yet lately it's been very cut-and-dry, without any choices or options or anything, really, to think about.
Instead of rolling for extra food, why not set up a skill challenge of some sort? Instead of rolling to knock over buckets, why not present a scenario where we have to think about how to proceed without interrupting building? Our characters can still be in a gritty, hopeless slavepen even while we players feel like we're at least co-pilots, rather than passengers, trying to make the best of a harsh situation. Want us to feel like slaves? Give us an angry overseer and we have to think of ways to appease him or we lose surges. Especially creative or inventive or submissive responses maybe get a surge back in the form of a sip of water.
We can roleplay hopelessness; it's for the characters--not the players. The Sims can take a boring everyday living and make it fun* because of the options and stuff you can do and how it affects the rest of the game and how the game matures. D&D is most fun to me when I am trying to use my imagination to explore possibilities and then testing the validity of those choices through realistic game mechanics and dice rolls. The Inn situation? Why not let me roll a Bluff check to create a diversion, if it's high enough I get a surprise round to run or a bonus to initative or something like that?
Personally, I don't like fudged dice. I'd rather have options available that a good (or fun or creative or interesting) decision will grant a higher (but not guaranteed) chance of success. I am curious though--What was our chance of beating a 15 DC with DEX? We got terrible rolls, but just seemed like a low possibility of success to begin with.
*I know saying The Sims is fun is subjective, but hopefully you see what I mean.
P.S. It's not a huge deal, but NPCs do have surges. One per tier. Page 187 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. He is a slave too though, so it would make sense for him to be out of surges.
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Mar 31, 2011 - 6:00PM
#60
|
Date Joined:
Jul 18, 2009
|
That's understood and that's good advice if I wanted to run this scenario in 4e again.
What's funny is that the parts you decribe you enjoyed the most in Sand Raiders are the ones I totally made up on the go. You can check DSCS, I made up the skill challenge, I made up the bottom cellar part. In fact for the bottom cellar I was also thinking of having a riddle/lock/skill challenge to open the cellar door... In parrallel, since the inixes had to be recovered quickly you may have decided to split teams and have the smart guys stay to do solve the riddle on skill challenge 1 while the tough guys would have chased the Inixes on skill challenge 2. For my education: would you have liked that better? (1) FYI, if you had decided to do things sequentially OR one of the two challenges failed, the downside was travelling at night instead of day time leading to a night encounter with night predators.
Finally the caravan part was also made up as a transition encouter between the two scenarii. My goal that was to scare you by having you cross another potentially dangerous caravan when you were already weakened after a tough fight... I thought the negotiations and roleplaying part would last longer and I did not feel that you guys enjoyed that part much, so I moved on. It is interesting to hear that someone liked it because I did not think so and I cut it short... I guess another function of PbP... I really can't read your emotions. Would you have enjoyed more if I kept the tension rising more, leading to more bargaining/bluffing... potentially full skill challenge? (2) (one downside is you could have been made prisonner on the spot and sold to Tyr).
For the rest of your comment... Well... Again I would probably do things a bit differently with your feedback on this first part of the scenario and I would railroad a touch less...
NOW ... to talk about the "future"... and I don't want to spoil anything... BUT everything you describe is coming up (it was planned from day 1), such as challenge(s) and maybe a guy or two on the outside (not guaranteed but it COULD happen, depending on choices YOU make, and it could be anyone). It's just that the "tough part" had to get out of the way... and again you made some choices... Urrgos could have been left to die
Finally, I need you all to give me input here: Did you like the way I ran the skill challenge in the 1st scenario? (3) (please feedback on my picture format & presentation + the way I handled it)... What would you have liked to see different? I can't promise I will comply but I can definitely try to make it more to your liking.
Note: I would have presented my post differently now that I know what I typed, but feel free to post back and give input on question (1) (2) (3)... especially (3)... Itake negative comments as well as positive, so please don't be shy, I am a big boy.
|
|
|