#: PCs Starting Spots X: Horizontal/Vertical Wall, Impassable /: Diagonal Wall, can Squeeze into space >: Grade downward in direction of arrow (normal otherwise) ,: Grassy areas (normal otherwise) %: Rockpile, Difficult Terrain
• Ad Hominem— Attacking the person's circumstances, not addressing the argument. • Ad Hominem Abusive (Personal Attack)— Insulting the person, not addressing the argument. • Ad Hominem Tu Quoque— Saying the person's inconsistent, not addressing the argument. • Appeal to Authority/Belief/Common Practice/Consequence of a Belief/Emotion/Fear/Flattery/Novelty/Pity/Popularity/Ridicule/Spite/Tradition— Using emotion instead of Fact. • Bandwagon— Use of peer pressure. • Begging the Question— Assuming premises which haven't necessarily been agreed to. • Biased Sample— Using a sampling which may not properly represent the whole. • Burden of Proof— Shifting it to the wrong side. • Circumstantial Ad Hominem— Attacking the person's interests in supporting their argument. • Composition— Assuming that the whole has the same qualities as individual parts. • Confusing Cause & Effect— Assuming that one thing causes another because they appear in conjunction. • Division— Assuming that the individual parts have the same qualities as the whole. • False Dilemma— Assuming that only two options exist. • Gambler's Fallacy— Assuming the odds have changed because of past occurances • Genetic— Assuming a perceived defect in the origin of a claim is proof of a defect in the claim. • Guilt by Association— Attacking others who agree with the claim. • Hasty Generalization— Assuming a quality based on too small a sample size. • Ignoring the Common Cause— Assuming there is no outside cause of two connected things. • Middle Ground— Assuming the midpoint of two extremes must be correct. • Misleading Vividness— Assuming a colorful anecdote outweighs statistical evidence. • Poisoning the Well— Using unprovable claims about the person instead of addressing the argument. • Post Hoc— Assuming that something caused something else simply because it happened first. • Questionable Cause— Assuming that one thing causes another. • Red Herring— Using irrelevant evidence to divert a discussion. • Relativist Fallacy— Asserting that a claim may be true for some but not for the speaker. • Slippery Slope— Assuming the inevitability of one event based on another. • Special Pleading— Claiming exemption without justification. • Spotlight— Assuming individuals that get the most attention to be indicative of the whole. • Straw Man— Misrepresenting the opposing argument. • Two Wrongs Make a Right— Justifying something unethical/immoral as response or pre-emption to something else unethical/immoral.
Response to those who like to compare 4e to a Video GameShow
Also, I find that the "D&D 4e is like an MMO" argument is often a sign of someone who is deliberately being obtuse and/or is potentially ignorant of actual MMO play. As someone who only ended a 6-year World of Warcraft addiction a year ago, I can say that most of your bullet points actually don't match up to the truth of it.
In D&D 4e, you can choose a hybrid, you can choose to play one class as though it were another (people played Warlords as Bards frequently, when the edition first came out, and Rangers were refluffed to Monks), you can focus your class on its secondary role (a Warlock who is more controller than striker, for instance), you can multiclass, and you can create a particular concept (a mounted lancer, a charger, etc.) within the mechanics via feats, choice of powers, and choice of skills. You decide which set of stats you use--are you a Chaladin, Straladin, or Baladin?--and you have ultimate influence on how your character turns out in the end. Yes, powers require you to be using a particular weapon within your class's available selection, but the powers are not themselves tied to the gear. Powers tied to weapons or armor are typically powers that belong to the item, not to the character class that's most likely to use it.
Yes, there are only so many powers available, and these will be what you do in battle; this is all that the designers created. Yes, there is a time-frame in which they can be used; this has always been the case, even in the days of Vancian casting. Yes, there are suggested builds, but you can routinely ignore those if it pleases you; the only parts of a class you have to take are the class features, and even those have options at this point. But the only way that this can be considered at all conflatable with MMO character building/playing is if you are deliberately ignoring all of that.
In WoW, you choose a class and you're done. No multiclassing or hybridization, no way to mimic one class with careful building of a different one. There is a firm dividing line on what is a WoW class. No secondary roles or creative concepts, either; you're going to be what the class sets out to be, and that's it. You'll always have the same stat allocation as another of your class, because you get set numbers as you level up, and you've got at best four options--and that's only the Druid class--to build, and if you plan on running dungeons, particularly heroic level ones, or raiding, you'd better not even think of deviating from the single defined best build on the talent tree for what you want to do. It was only recently, with the complete tear-down and recreation of talent trees for Mists of Pandaria, that there was a concept of there being anything but the one best build that people who calculated such mechanical advantages (the folks on Elitist Jerks, for example), and the people who did things like achieve "World First" at various top-tier raids set precedent for.
Also, no class will ever not have a specific set of powers; all Priests in WoW have the same baseline, with deviation only based upon their talent tree specialization, where a D&D4e player could take whatever power in their class pleases them. Any Retribution Paladin will be the same as any other in terms of powers, because that is what a RetPally is. Any Assassination Rogue will always have the same powers as another, etc. All powers are always on specific cool-downs, but will always be there when they start a battle, where a 4e PC might enter an encounter with only At-Wills, or without their Daily powers due to what plot has done up until that point. Furthermore, no power that is not already specifically tied to an item will ever "require" you have that item, to my recollection. Classes get all their powers based on class; gear only gives bonuses to stats, possibly cuts down cast times for abilities or cooldowns, grants temporary extra bonuses to stats (the latter two most often on the raid tier equipment), and on rare occassions an extra power that may or may not be valuable, as some are only special effects instead of valuable abilities.
Most honest/open response on why DDN needs to be InclusiveShow
I've always felt it is in the best interests of D&D to be as inclusive across the playerbase as they can be and still have a game. I've never felt though that making a game that was inclusive within a group was very useful or even desirable. DM's and players can decide amongst themselves what options or restrictions they want for their games. I tend to lean to the DM to make most of those decisions but again that is a group specific thing.
Having said that. I get the distinct impression that there are a lot of players on these boards who come from groups that generally ruled against their own desires. It's almost like they are an oppressed minority from a gaming perspective. I also get the impression that they tend to advocate against things that if available their fellow group members might like and vote them down on.
Do a lot of you feel this way?
Just for clarification...here are some examples... 1. Alignment restrictions as an option. 2. Alignment Mechanics 3. Martial healing 4. Races being included or not.
I know my perspective is not that I often play at tables where my likes are not represented. Instead, my perspective comes from the many years I spent being a bad DM. I was a bad DM because my guidance came from the books, and the books gave bad advice. The books told me that alignment was a useful approach to roleplaying, so I went with it even though it felt kind of weird to me. Now I know that, at least in my style of running games, alignment destroys rp. I trusted the books to give good advice, and it messed up my game. Now I'm much more mature as a DM, so I know how to take advice with a grain of salt. And I still learn new stuff every session I run.
I don't want future DMs to go through my problems again. There's a big enough DM shortage as it is. DMing well is hard.
The biggest thing I had to unlearn in my process of becoming a good DM was the idea that the game is a simulation of a world. I understand many DMs prefer a more simulationist approach, although I am always skeptical simply because I would have said the same thing until I learned and grew as a DM. This doesn't mean their approach is completely invalid, but it still gives me a personal twinge when I see a regression back to 3e era sim style gaming.
I also have noticed many groups where one or two old-school players run a whole group's playstyle because the newer players aren't even aware there are other ways of doing things. The newer players tell me stories of things they hated in the session, and I end up explaining to them how those things they hate are very fixable, and in fact are fixed in the newer edition of the game their older players have told them is terrible.
In regard to things like martial healing, I don't think it's necessary for it to be in the game for the game to be fun. However, the attitude that says martial healing is terrible and shouldn't exist is an attitude that, to me, reveals a wrongheaded approach to the game. Therefore, my fight for it to be an option is to help legitimize the more narrative approach that I think is what most players want, but many don't know is possible, because they've never been exposed to it.
One thing the group travelling to the Chaos Scar does not know, at the outset anyway, is precisely who their "employers" are. They know only what their recruiters have told them. It wasn't your idea to do it this way; you were simply following orders....
You've had dreams before, but never before had it seemed so real, had such clarity. A land untouched by civilization, at the edge of the known world. A streak of light across the sky, screaming and crashing and burning. Corruption, chaos, aberration, destruction; a cancer across the face of the world. And it was spreading.
You awoke in a sweat, or so you thought. But then you heard the voice, you knew it was Hers: It is time, my child. Time to close the Scar.
She gave you instructions, and then you awoke. You wrote them down, to make sure you had them, though you knew you could not forget if you tried. You travelled to Thunderspire Mountain, and went down into the labyrinth, that labyrinth that once was a defilement, that labyrinth that you had helped cleanse once, and probably would again. There you requested a meeting with the Mages of Saruun. You finally had to pass a message through their Ogre lackey, in order to get in to see one. Giving them they key to one of the arcane ciphers they were working on, that was Melora's idea as well. Their representative listened as you repeated Melora's words. He agreed, and made the arrangements.
After that, you did as Melora asked, and left it in their hands. The Mages performed the ritual requested, to find those candidates best suited for the journey. Their agents found them, recuited them, and brought them in. You left it in the hands of Melora, as you should, and left them to their business while you took your time getting to Fallcrest.
Melora has given you no instructions yet beyond that; you don't expect anymore, at this point. The arrangement with the Mages was that, in exchange for their helping you arrange the team to explore the Chaos Scar, you would help their interests. They do not know your true goals; and neither do you know theirs. In truth, you are not the power behind this group; that is Melora, and perhaps the Mages. But you are likely the only one who knows the truth at the moment.
You were just doing your job, your duty to king and clan. It really was not your fault; your partner, who was supposed to keep watch, slacked off instead. Now you found yourself in chains beneath Hammerfast, for a crime you didn't commit - well, okay, you were committing it, but it wasn't a crime, not really. But you had to keep quiet, keep your mouth shut, as you knew you were supposed to. You already made sure that your partner wouldn't get anyone else in trouble....
You weren't even looking to escape. One night you awoke, chains undone, door open, not a guard in sight. You could have helped others escape, perhaps, but they were criminals. They deserved what they were getting. With that thought, you almost shut your cell door and went back to sleep, but decided to see where this led. After all, you could always come back and turn yourself in later. So you left, and made your way out of the mountain.
You were met by a strange dwarf, one you had never seen before. He knew you by name, and made you an offer you were in no position to refuse. Supplies - including a magic battleaxe. Money for travel expenses. A ride to Fallcrest. And an opportunity, a chance to let time heal the wounds and obfuscate the matter. You could come back, after a time. You could return to your sister, your king, your clan. Eventually....
You rode with him to Fallcrest where he led you to a barge. A short time later you were headed downriver....
It was time for a new line of work. Your last one, caravan guard, it did not end up so well; two wagons stolen, one wagon destroyed, and out of the 12 people who started with the caravan, only one survivor - and that was simply luck. The delivery from Harkenwold to Hammerfast had been taken by a well co-ordinated strike of the gang from Raven's Roost, and now you were left as the most likely suspect. Definitely time for something new.
You almost thought the human was another of the highwaymen, back to finish you off; his saying your name stopped you in your tracks. He had an offer, a way for you to get to somewhere else quickly and quietly. Build up your resources, build up your reserves, build up your skills; and then come back and salvage your reputation, if that is what you chose to do.
Supplies, expenses, and an opportunity somewhere far away. That sounds like an excellent line of work.
You were just beginning to come to terms with it. It being that you would never find your destiny in Green River Bend. Too much heirarchy had already settled in above you, to hinder your path. Every person you worked with, every person you looked at, was no longer a means to an end, but a hindrance. Even your mentor told you, "Senol, you need to strike out on your own, go somewhere else, and spread love and respect for Bane. You can do great things, and help return our religion to the path of Light and Good, not corrupted by those infernal hobgoblins. Then you can come back here a conquering hero, instead of a copperpiece thug...."
The very next day, the odd man approached you. He knew you by name, and offered to take you away, to a place where you could lead Order and Civilization to victory over Corruption and Chaos. A place where you could make a name for yourself, as a leader of men. Plus, enough money to get you there, and even an enchantment for your holy symbol. You confered with your priest-friend, but you knew where your destiny lay, and so you found yourself at the riverdocks, getting onto a barge....
To be perfectly honest, your excuse was boredom. It always came back to that. Growing up, you had become bored; that lead to your adventures, and your becoming a pariah among your own people. Only Tsiva understood, because she felt the same way. But while she was unable to escape the tedium, you lept at the chance. Unfortunately, the bane to your existence followed. Now you were bored and destitute, and ready for a change. You'd tried your hand at different things, going from one end of Nentir Vale to the other end of Green Valley; it was time for something different.
You have no idea how the elf found you; at first, you thought it must have been a message back from Tsiva. But no luck. Instead, he had an offer of someplace else, the likes you'd never seen on this side of the veil. A place where chaos leaked into the world. Something new, something different, something exciting. Something... not here.
Now if only you can survive the boredom of the three weeks it takes to get there.
Your were in your home in the swamp when the man came. Unlike past visitors that you had come to know, he was there specifically to see you; in fact, he knew you by name, though he never really explained how. He told you he had been sent to ask for your help. In a place far away, the natural world was being altered and corrupted by... something. Nobody truly knew what. Adventurers were needed to explore this strange place, to help figure out what was wrong, and to put it back to rights. You were being asked to be a part of this effort. You were invited to the Chaos Scar.
In exchange for your agreement, you were being offered free transportation and lodging until you arrived at Restwell Keep. Once there, you would be put in contact with people who needed your help. In addition, the totem which you had made with your own hands, while communing with your spirit friends, would be imbued with arcane magics, giving it extra powers to help your affinity with the primordial world.
All that was good, but helping to right the course of nature... that was the key for you. That and your curiousity. You traveled back with him, down the river to Green River Bend, where you were placed on a river barge travelling southward....
If any of you are unhappy with your hooks, and want to make changes either minor or major, let me know and we can re-work it. I did the best I could with what I had.
Combined Hook:
Until yesterday, the six of you had been travelling for a week by boat. Three of you came down the Nentir River starting from Fallcrest, your barge finally landing at Edzil's Ford. Three came down the Green River instead, a shorter trip on a barge, but then having to transfer to another boat (likely, you suspect, a smuggler) for the trip from one end of the Twin Delta to the other, and up to the Ford. A night's stay on land after 7 nights on the river was comforting, but now you are wagon-bound, travelling with sundry goods on the fornight-long journey to Restwell Keep (with stops in between). The further you travel this road to the south, the further apart the points of civilization will become; what starts as a well-maintained road will eventually become a bumpy path. Fortunately, your driver informs you, the likelihood of being interrupted on the way to Restwell is small; what troublemakers there might be, he suggests, they tend to get drawn to the other side of the King's Wall instead....
The weather is warm, the hills are soft, and the road is kind. The company, however... well, that's in your hands....
• Ad Hominem— Attacking the person's circumstances, not addressing the argument. • Ad Hominem Abusive (Personal Attack)— Insulting the person, not addressing the argument. • Ad Hominem Tu Quoque— Saying the person's inconsistent, not addressing the argument. • Appeal to Authority/Belief/Common Practice/Consequence of a Belief/Emotion/Fear/Flattery/Novelty/Pity/Popularity/Ridicule/Spite/Tradition— Using emotion instead of Fact. • Bandwagon— Use of peer pressure. • Begging the Question— Assuming premises which haven't necessarily been agreed to. • Biased Sample— Using a sampling which may not properly represent the whole. • Burden of Proof— Shifting it to the wrong side. • Circumstantial Ad Hominem— Attacking the person's interests in supporting their argument. • Composition— Assuming that the whole has the same qualities as individual parts. • Confusing Cause & Effect— Assuming that one thing causes another because they appear in conjunction. • Division— Assuming that the individual parts have the same qualities as the whole. • False Dilemma— Assuming that only two options exist. • Gambler's Fallacy— Assuming the odds have changed because of past occurances • Genetic— Assuming a perceived defect in the origin of a claim is proof of a defect in the claim. • Guilt by Association— Attacking others who agree with the claim. • Hasty Generalization— Assuming a quality based on too small a sample size. • Ignoring the Common Cause— Assuming there is no outside cause of two connected things. • Middle Ground— Assuming the midpoint of two extremes must be correct. • Misleading Vividness— Assuming a colorful anecdote outweighs statistical evidence. • Poisoning the Well— Using unprovable claims about the person instead of addressing the argument. • Post Hoc— Assuming that something caused something else simply because it happened first. • Questionable Cause— Assuming that one thing causes another. • Red Herring— Using irrelevant evidence to divert a discussion. • Relativist Fallacy— Asserting that a claim may be true for some but not for the speaker. • Slippery Slope— Assuming the inevitability of one event based on another. • Special Pleading— Claiming exemption without justification. • Spotlight— Assuming individuals that get the most attention to be indicative of the whole. • Straw Man— Misrepresenting the opposing argument. • Two Wrongs Make a Right— Justifying something unethical/immoral as response or pre-emption to something else unethical/immoral.
Response to those who like to compare 4e to a Video GameShow
Also, I find that the "D&D 4e is like an MMO" argument is often a sign of someone who is deliberately being obtuse and/or is potentially ignorant of actual MMO play. As someone who only ended a 6-year World of Warcraft addiction a year ago, I can say that most of your bullet points actually don't match up to the truth of it.
In D&D 4e, you can choose a hybrid, you can choose to play one class as though it were another (people played Warlords as Bards frequently, when the edition first came out, and Rangers were refluffed to Monks), you can focus your class on its secondary role (a Warlock who is more controller than striker, for instance), you can multiclass, and you can create a particular concept (a mounted lancer, a charger, etc.) within the mechanics via feats, choice of powers, and choice of skills. You decide which set of stats you use--are you a Chaladin, Straladin, or Baladin?--and you have ultimate influence on how your character turns out in the end. Yes, powers require you to be using a particular weapon within your class's available selection, but the powers are not themselves tied to the gear. Powers tied to weapons or armor are typically powers that belong to the item, not to the character class that's most likely to use it.
Yes, there are only so many powers available, and these will be what you do in battle; this is all that the designers created. Yes, there is a time-frame in which they can be used; this has always been the case, even in the days of Vancian casting. Yes, there are suggested builds, but you can routinely ignore those if it pleases you; the only parts of a class you have to take are the class features, and even those have options at this point. But the only way that this can be considered at all conflatable with MMO character building/playing is if you are deliberately ignoring all of that.
In WoW, you choose a class and you're done. No multiclassing or hybridization, no way to mimic one class with careful building of a different one. There is a firm dividing line on what is a WoW class. No secondary roles or creative concepts, either; you're going to be what the class sets out to be, and that's it. You'll always have the same stat allocation as another of your class, because you get set numbers as you level up, and you've got at best four options--and that's only the Druid class--to build, and if you plan on running dungeons, particularly heroic level ones, or raiding, you'd better not even think of deviating from the single defined best build on the talent tree for what you want to do. It was only recently, with the complete tear-down and recreation of talent trees for Mists of Pandaria, that there was a concept of there being anything but the one best build that people who calculated such mechanical advantages (the folks on Elitist Jerks, for example), and the people who did things like achieve "World First" at various top-tier raids set precedent for.
Also, no class will ever not have a specific set of powers; all Priests in WoW have the same baseline, with deviation only based upon their talent tree specialization, where a D&D4e player could take whatever power in their class pleases them. Any Retribution Paladin will be the same as any other in terms of powers, because that is what a RetPally is. Any Assassination Rogue will always have the same powers as another, etc. All powers are always on specific cool-downs, but will always be there when they start a battle, where a 4e PC might enter an encounter with only At-Wills, or without their Daily powers due to what plot has done up until that point. Furthermore, no power that is not already specifically tied to an item will ever "require" you have that item, to my recollection. Classes get all their powers based on class; gear only gives bonuses to stats, possibly cuts down cast times for abilities or cooldowns, grants temporary extra bonuses to stats (the latter two most often on the raid tier equipment), and on rare occassions an extra power that may or may not be valuable, as some are only special effects instead of valuable abilities.
Most honest/open response on why DDN needs to be InclusiveShow
I've always felt it is in the best interests of D&D to be as inclusive across the playerbase as they can be and still have a game. I've never felt though that making a game that was inclusive within a group was very useful or even desirable. DM's and players can decide amongst themselves what options or restrictions they want for their games. I tend to lean to the DM to make most of those decisions but again that is a group specific thing.
Having said that. I get the distinct impression that there are a lot of players on these boards who come from groups that generally ruled against their own desires. It's almost like they are an oppressed minority from a gaming perspective. I also get the impression that they tend to advocate against things that if available their fellow group members might like and vote them down on.
Do a lot of you feel this way?
Just for clarification...here are some examples... 1. Alignment restrictions as an option. 2. Alignment Mechanics 3. Martial healing 4. Races being included or not.
I know my perspective is not that I often play at tables where my likes are not represented. Instead, my perspective comes from the many years I spent being a bad DM. I was a bad DM because my guidance came from the books, and the books gave bad advice. The books told me that alignment was a useful approach to roleplaying, so I went with it even though it felt kind of weird to me. Now I know that, at least in my style of running games, alignment destroys rp. I trusted the books to give good advice, and it messed up my game. Now I'm much more mature as a DM, so I know how to take advice with a grain of salt. And I still learn new stuff every session I run.
I don't want future DMs to go through my problems again. There's a big enough DM shortage as it is. DMing well is hard.
The biggest thing I had to unlearn in my process of becoming a good DM was the idea that the game is a simulation of a world. I understand many DMs prefer a more simulationist approach, although I am always skeptical simply because I would have said the same thing until I learned and grew as a DM. This doesn't mean their approach is completely invalid, but it still gives me a personal twinge when I see a regression back to 3e era sim style gaming.
I also have noticed many groups where one or two old-school players run a whole group's playstyle because the newer players aren't even aware there are other ways of doing things. The newer players tell me stories of things they hated in the session, and I end up explaining to them how those things they hate are very fixable, and in fact are fixed in the newer edition of the game their older players have told them is terrible.
In regard to things like martial healing, I don't think it's necessary for it to be in the game for the game to be fun. However, the attitude that says martial healing is terrible and shouldn't exist is an attitude that, to me, reveals a wrongheaded approach to the game. Therefore, my fight for it to be an option is to help legitimize the more narrative approach that I think is what most players want, but many don't know is possible, because they've never been exposed to it.
So these are the beings the mages have brought to Her service...we shall see their use soon enough.
"Greetings...friends. I am glad we have gathered here today. The scar we approach runs deep. It is ugly and it is dangerous, but the world will thank us when we do what must be done." He tilts his head to the side, as if listening to something inaudible, and chuckles. "You all are doing Her, and the spirits, a great service. They tell me they will not forget it."
The eldarin's pupiless violet eyes lend itself to what might appear to some to be an expression of contemplation and inner peace as he gazes off to the scenery passing by the wagon. They would be wrong. What Tiral wears on his face is merely a vacant stare. He is glad when the deva finally breaks the stupor.
"Do they tell you that? Well pass on a mesage to them for me", Tiral comments, sizing up the speaker. "If they feel they owe me a favor I wouldn't mind a few less beast attacks when I'm walking through the wilderness. Or, you know, it doesn't have to be specifically the wilderness. If there's got to be a beast attack just take a breather on that until I get a couple of leagues out of the trouble. If your friends aren't too busy, that is."
The eladrin tosses his glance around.
"So I can guess what the spirit child is doing here, but how about the rest of you? Happen to get a summons from some crackpot with a story to sell, by any chance?"
''So this knife is very good at separating the flesh from the bone and severing the tendons...'' Do you have to say it like that? ''Well, how else am I supposed to say it?'' I don't know...you could say "it's good for butchering." ''When did the word "butchery" become a euphemism?''
The deva sizes up the Eladrin in an attempt to understand if this is the cultural form known as sarcasm that has been explained to him several times, or whether the fey was really interested in protection from natural beasts.
"The Primal Spirits, and the Goddess Herself, have very little influence over natural beasts on a day to day basis. Neither of them feel that intervention accomplishes much, and prefer to leave animals to their own devices."
Raising his hand, Path Between mumbles a few words, and the white trace lines that run in patterns on his body glow softly with radiant light. A ghostly panther materializes below his hand, and he strokes it affectionately.
"Of course, with enough dedication to the natual world and Her precepts, exeptions are made. Be sure that if we succeed in our task, beasts from the natural world will be made to take notice. Of course...this boon of friendship would not likely be as strong in the Feywild."
The ghostly panther suddenly shifts form into that of a bird of prey, indistinct in its whispy form, and alights on Path's shoulder.
"Regardless, our actions will stamp out a great threat to civilization as well as nature. If fame and glory be your reward of choice, I am sure these, too, will come in spades."
"No, that's alright. You can keep the fame and glory as well. I'm just here to pass the time" Tiral responds as he begins to absently unwind and wind the sling around his wrist.
A keen observer's observations might tell him that the eladrin is not actually being sarcastic. More like he is making no effort to either believe or disbelieve the deva's words and is just making idle conversation.
''So this knife is very good at separating the flesh from the bone and severing the tendons...'' Do you have to say it like that? ''Well, how else am I supposed to say it?'' I don't know...you could say "it's good for butchering." ''When did the word "butchery" become a euphemism?''
The dwarf just grunts, not having done much conversing in the time you've known him.
"Doin what needs to be done aint all it's cracked up to be. But, it still needs to be done. Dont be expectin no thanks for it tho. Only reason it still needs to be done is that no one else wants to do it."
From what little you know of him, this was a major speech for Vitya.
"I'm in it for the fame and glory, not to mention a bit of wealth. I've got plans, and your spirits and goddess nonsense better stay out of my way unless they plan to help."
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"If my spirits and Goddess intended to interfere, I don't think I would have went through the trouble of assembling a group together for this purpose. So yes, they plan to help; you'll see that with your own eyes."
He pauses after the revelation that it was he who tried to gather a group for this purpose.
"...And your greed and vanity better not get in the way, unless they plan to help."
