Path nods, "A great suggestion. I would think this trading-spot would have more to offer than the wall-den without the taxes in place. Those definately discourage bringing more valuable items in - they must not know about this place, then."
"Browsing does seem like a good idea. We avoid the taxes and we can probably find things not readily available in town." Alain offers a smirk at this. "This is probably the best thing that we could have stumbled across."
The Play-by-Post recruitment hub for the forums. Stop by, join us, and sign up for some games while you are there
I know, it's our second Skill Challenge, but for one of you it's the first; besides which, it's been a little while, so can't hurt to go over it.
* First, once again, let me make this clear:
DO NOT DO YOUR OWN ROLLS.
Since other people may be aiding some of your checks, the easiest way to make sure that we stay "honest" is for me to do the rolls once everyone has decided what they're doing. Besides which, I think it keeps things more interesting.
* Each character must make an action. They may:
• Use a skill as listed below - DCs (based on current level) will be: Easy = 5; Moderate = 10; Hard = 15. Successes/Failures on Primary Skills will count toward your total success/failure. Successes/Failures on Secondary Skills will count as Aiding certain checks, and not to your total successes/failures. The "fluff" given with each skill is an Example; you may choose to use it, or to come up with some other variation on the theme.
• Aid another character - DCs will be 11 (10 + ½ level). Success will give the specified character a +2 to that skill check. Failure will give the specified character a -1 to that skill check. No more than 2 characters may aid any one other character's rolls.
• Also, to make it clear, More than one character may use the same skill.
* You may discuss in the OOC list how to best utilize your skills. You may coordinate as you wish. This is essentially an Encounter - albeit a non-combat one - and your success or failure will depend on your working as a team. I prefer that at least one of you make the decision what to do for any players who have not submitted actions by the deadline for the current round of the skill challenge. I do not know what I will do if I have to make a choice, but you might not like it....
* Please, please, please feel free to post an IC description of what you're doing, in addition to the OOC mechanics of it, eh?
* Skill Challenge: Round 1 deadline: Friday, 11 Mar 2011, 2359 EST. (I will post it before if I have everyone in by then.)
As you approach the building in which the swap meet is being held, you notice a few toughs bristling up at your approach. One of them jerks a thumb over toward a corner, in which sits an old tiefling. "Before we can let you in, he's gotta ok it," the goon says. Others - including some of the other patrons and vendors - seem to be inclined to support that.
On the assumption that you leave it at that and go over to talk to the old tiefling, the man looks up as you approach. His face is grizzled and scarred, and his right eye is solid silver. "My name's Millen, Millen Silvereye. We're just a handful of hunters here, trading a few old pelts." He smiles widely, revealing a crooked and unkempt smile.
Primary Skills: • Diplomacy: (moderate) You make an appeal to Millen’s business sense, trying to convince him that you will make good and discrete customers, and that he should deal with you..
• Insight: (moderate) You sense for the cause of Millen’s caution and reluctance, and learn how to convince Millen that he won’t bring any trouble to the trading post.
• Intimidate: (hard) You try to convince Millen that refusing you would be very bad for his health, and that you could probably just take what you wanted anyway.
• Streetwise: (moderate) You recognize that dealing in black market goods requires a certain attitude and approach, which usually involves talking around the subject of the conversation rather than speak of it directly.
Secondary Skills: • Perception, Bluff: (hard) You notice (or trick Millen into revealing) that no one expected y'all to arrive, and that y'all may have interrupted some clandestine trading. (Will aid Insight & Streetwise checks.)
• Any others you can come up with: (hard) Certainly some knowledge or talent of yours may come in handy, in helping to work your way into the tiefling's good graces....
• Ad Hominem— Attacking the person's circumstances, not addressing the argument. • Ad Hominem Abusive (Personal Attack)— Insulting the person, not addressing the argument. • Ad Hominem Tu Quoque— Saying the person's inconsistent, not addressing the argument. • Appeal to Authority/Belief/Common Practice/Consequence of a Belief/Emotion/Fear/Flattery/Novelty/Pity/Popularity/Ridicule/Spite/Tradition— Using emotion instead of Fact. • Bandwagon— Use of peer pressure. • Begging the Question— Assuming premises which haven't necessarily been agreed to. • Biased Sample— Using a sampling which may not properly represent the whole. • Burden of Proof— Shifting it to the wrong side. • Circumstantial Ad Hominem— Attacking the person's interests in supporting their argument. • Composition— Assuming that the whole has the same qualities as individual parts. • Confusing Cause & Effect— Assuming that one thing causes another because they appear in conjunction. • Division— Assuming that the individual parts have the same qualities as the whole. • False Dilemma— Assuming that only two options exist. • Gambler's Fallacy— Assuming the odds have changed because of past occurances • Genetic— Assuming a perceived defect in the origin of a claim is proof of a defect in the claim. • Guilt by Association— Attacking others who agree with the claim. • Hasty Generalization— Assuming a quality based on too small a sample size. • Ignoring the Common Cause— Assuming there is no outside cause of two connected things. • Middle Ground— Assuming the midpoint of two extremes must be correct. • Misleading Vividness— Assuming a colorful anecdote outweighs statistical evidence. • Poisoning the Well— Using unprovable claims about the person instead of addressing the argument. • Post Hoc— Assuming that something caused something else simply because it happened first. • Questionable Cause— Assuming that one thing causes another. • Red Herring— Using irrelevant evidence to divert a discussion. • Relativist Fallacy— Asserting that a claim may be true for some but not for the speaker. • Slippery Slope— Assuming the inevitability of one event based on another. • Special Pleading— Claiming exemption without justification. • Spotlight— Assuming individuals that get the most attention to be indicative of the whole. • Straw Man— Misrepresenting the opposing argument. • Two Wrongs Make a Right— Justifying something unethical/immoral as response or pre-emption to something else unethical/immoral.
Response to those who like to compare 4e to a Video GameShow
Also, I find that the "D&D 4e is like an MMO" argument is often a sign of someone who is deliberately being obtuse and/or is potentially ignorant of actual MMO play. As someone who only ended a 6-year World of Warcraft addiction a year ago, I can say that most of your bullet points actually don't match up to the truth of it.
In D&D 4e, you can choose a hybrid, you can choose to play one class as though it were another (people played Warlords as Bards frequently, when the edition first came out, and Rangers were refluffed to Monks), you can focus your class on its secondary role (a Warlock who is more controller than striker, for instance), you can multiclass, and you can create a particular concept (a mounted lancer, a charger, etc.) within the mechanics via feats, choice of powers, and choice of skills. You decide which set of stats you use--are you a Chaladin, Straladin, or Baladin?--and you have ultimate influence on how your character turns out in the end. Yes, powers require you to be using a particular weapon within your class's available selection, but the powers are not themselves tied to the gear. Powers tied to weapons or armor are typically powers that belong to the item, not to the character class that's most likely to use it.
Yes, there are only so many powers available, and these will be what you do in battle; this is all that the designers created. Yes, there is a time-frame in which they can be used; this has always been the case, even in the days of Vancian casting. Yes, there are suggested builds, but you can routinely ignore those if it pleases you; the only parts of a class you have to take are the class features, and even those have options at this point. But the only way that this can be considered at all conflatable with MMO character building/playing is if you are deliberately ignoring all of that.
In WoW, you choose a class and you're done. No multiclassing or hybridization, no way to mimic one class with careful building of a different one. There is a firm dividing line on what is a WoW class. No secondary roles or creative concepts, either; you're going to be what the class sets out to be, and that's it. You'll always have the same stat allocation as another of your class, because you get set numbers as you level up, and you've got at best four options--and that's only the Druid class--to build, and if you plan on running dungeons, particularly heroic level ones, or raiding, you'd better not even think of deviating from the single defined best build on the talent tree for what you want to do. It was only recently, with the complete tear-down and recreation of talent trees for Mists of Pandaria, that there was a concept of there being anything but the one best build that people who calculated such mechanical advantages (the folks on Elitist Jerks, for example), and the people who did things like achieve "World First" at various top-tier raids set precedent for.
Also, no class will ever not have a specific set of powers; all Priests in WoW have the same baseline, with deviation only based upon their talent tree specialization, where a D&D4e player could take whatever power in their class pleases them. Any Retribution Paladin will be the same as any other in terms of powers, because that is what a RetPally is. Any Assassination Rogue will always have the same powers as another, etc. All powers are always on specific cool-downs, but will always be there when they start a battle, where a 4e PC might enter an encounter with only At-Wills, or without their Daily powers due to what plot has done up until that point. Furthermore, no power that is not already specifically tied to an item will ever "require" you have that item, to my recollection. Classes get all their powers based on class; gear only gives bonuses to stats, possibly cuts down cast times for abilities or cooldowns, grants temporary extra bonuses to stats (the latter two most often on the raid tier equipment), and on rare occassions an extra power that may or may not be valuable, as some are only special effects instead of valuable abilities.
Most honest/open response on why DDN needs to be InclusiveShow
I've always felt it is in the best interests of D&D to be as inclusive across the playerbase as they can be and still have a game. I've never felt though that making a game that was inclusive within a group was very useful or even desirable. DM's and players can decide amongst themselves what options or restrictions they want for their games. I tend to lean to the DM to make most of those decisions but again that is a group specific thing.
Having said that. I get the distinct impression that there are a lot of players on these boards who come from groups that generally ruled against their own desires. It's almost like they are an oppressed minority from a gaming perspective. I also get the impression that they tend to advocate against things that if available their fellow group members might like and vote them down on.
Do a lot of you feel this way?
Just for clarification...here are some examples... 1. Alignment restrictions as an option. 2. Alignment Mechanics 3. Martial healing 4. Races being included or not.
I know my perspective is not that I often play at tables where my likes are not represented. Instead, my perspective comes from the many years I spent being a bad DM. I was a bad DM because my guidance came from the books, and the books gave bad advice. The books told me that alignment was a useful approach to roleplaying, so I went with it even though it felt kind of weird to me. Now I know that, at least in my style of running games, alignment destroys rp. I trusted the books to give good advice, and it messed up my game. Now I'm much more mature as a DM, so I know how to take advice with a grain of salt. And I still learn new stuff every session I run.
I don't want future DMs to go through my problems again. There's a big enough DM shortage as it is. DMing well is hard.
The biggest thing I had to unlearn in my process of becoming a good DM was the idea that the game is a simulation of a world. I understand many DMs prefer a more simulationist approach, although I am always skeptical simply because I would have said the same thing until I learned and grew as a DM. This doesn't mean their approach is completely invalid, but it still gives me a personal twinge when I see a regression back to 3e era sim style gaming.
I also have noticed many groups where one or two old-school players run a whole group's playstyle because the newer players aren't even aware there are other ways of doing things. The newer players tell me stories of things they hated in the session, and I end up explaining to them how those things they hate are very fixable, and in fact are fixed in the newer edition of the game their older players have told them is terrible.
In regard to things like martial healing, I don't think it's necessary for it to be in the game for the game to be fun. However, the attitude that says martial healing is terrible and shouldn't exist is an attitude that, to me, reveals a wrongheaded approach to the game. Therefore, my fight for it to be an option is to help legitimize the more narrative approach that I think is what most players want, but many don't know is possible, because they've never been exposed to it.
He looks about for a moment until he spots Krunk, and waves the kobolds over to their location.
"Forgive me for the imposition, Millen, but I realize you're doing some sensitive business. The type of business that encourages one to be weary of others, especially ones that could look as if they may live in the wall-den called Fallcrest."
He gestures to the kobolds.
"These two can speak for our discretion. We came apon them in the forceful employ some that would waylay trade routes to the wall-den, as we were sent to resolve the very problem. Rather than slaughter them all, as some are wont to do, we came to an agreeable compromise and neglected to tell those of the wall-den of their involvement."
He pulls out his changepurse and jingles it.
"We are here to study the scar and take work hunting prey for others, and care more of obtaining supplies than the rules on how they are procured."
Chant stood next to Path, and nodded at his words.
"And our friends can also speak for our ability to stay alive. If we are to study the scar as closely as we wish to, we will have to fight off any and all of those who would wish us not to do so. We have already, in fact. It would be a shame if we had to fight those who we did not absolutely have to. We are very much interested in forming lasting, friendly relationships with people we know that we can trust. And if we can't trust a person, then we would have to take our business elsewhere."
Tal'Barraka already disliked the old tiefling, the fact that he had a silver eye for some reason really sparked the blood of the bugbear. This 'thing' would keep Elaine and him from obtaining things they needed to survive. The soldiers of Restwell Keep would mostly kill him and do as they would to lovely Elaine. The mere thought of it made bits of foam start to fleck his lips as he pulled them back from his fangs in a savage display of anger.
"I have gold and this is only place I can go. Your weak tribe warriors dare threaten me?" The bugbear levels his massive axe at the thugs with one powerfully muscled arm with the promise of painful and inglorious deaths.
"I come to trade and buy when I am far more used to taking by steel and blood! Sing-song words I hear, others say this is market for those forced to live on the outside. I am Tal'Barraka the Skullreaver! I am the Stormaxe of the Lord of Battles and this is Sar'Lorkha," he shook the wicked axe, "and it cleaves lies from the false! I come here in peace and I am greeted with threats?"