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@azuro, I understand the gut reaction to Pdr, as his natural state is very counter town. By that I mean his standard mo reflects most peoples scum mo, for instance his preference on lurking. Unless you have a case to make on him though, I'd say its better to not gut check Pdr for that very reason.

@razor, my play yesterday isn't conventional, for sure, but its also not the first time I've moved to strategically no lynch, even without the town's consent (in that circumstance the tie rule lead to a no lynch, I swung a late day vote that positioned the lynch into a tie with the stated purpose of no lynching the day. forget which game that was though. One of the classics, I think). Point being that's not really out of my known history nor is it out of my basic frame work of being that guy that does unconventional things like attack claimed cops.

Best night phase I've ever had.

Does anyone have any reads on Ahylis or Pere?

I feel like they haven't had much attention.

Wait razor, your reason for not going after him is because you thought he was protecting town? Him coming up non-mafia still kinda proves that theory, and JD still bugs me a bit due to that and just a general gut feeling. But then hes starting to act kind of how I have been the last few games, which is more of a neutral to towny-tell, so I need to go back and read through again myself.

@Razor and Rubik: How confident are you guys that your new 3rd is town?

75%-ish?

Dec 2, 2012 -- 9:20PM, Freddeh wrote:

Wait razor, your reason for not going after him is because you thought he was protecting town? Him coming up non-mafia still kinda proves that theory, and JD still bugs me a bit due to that and just a general gut feeling. But then hes starting to act kind of how I have been the last few games, which is more of a neutral to towny-tell, so I need to go back and read through again myself.

no, I thought he was trying to divert the lynch to a different lurker to protect his scum buddy. but now that you point it out, I'd overlooked the fact that he tried to divert it onto an inactive scum could be a bus, but I still don't think that's as likely.

Dec 2, 2012 -- 9:20PM, Freddeh wrote:

@Razor and Rubik: How confident are you guys that your new 3rd is town?

I think it's more likely than not. I certainly wouldn't vouch for them in any serious way, but I have a decently town read on them right now.

I know of one person that targeted TU last night. I do not know if they were the only person to target TU, but I do know for certain that they did.

Would anyone like to come forward and admit they targeted TU? If I don't hear from them, what is the consensus? Should I out them? I have a strong Town read on them due to the fact TU died and is shown scum, but they might have been trying to protect them and failed or something. All I know is that this person definitely targeted TU last night.

Probably just someone who tried to diablarize him.

Revealing their name might tell mafia who got his abilities/item and would probably be a null-read because dialarizing is probably in the best interests of mafia as well as town because it (allows mafia to retain some of their team's powers and deny them from town)/(allows town to deny abilities from the mafia).

The odds of one mafiate attemping to res another is also probably low because it costs blood and the person would just get re-lynched. Protection would also run the risk of combat with the person who successfully diablarized night 1.

Also mafia could have at most diablarized 1 person last night, so we have /at least/ 2 townies who have successfully diablarized.

There is also the possiblity of more than 3 scum (scum might be weak in this game, so they might have greater numbers to make up for their apparent lack of an automatic night-kill).

If the independent hadn't of popped up I would have agreed with you Rubik. As is 5 non-town in a 12-player game is highly unlikely.

Dec 3, 2012 -- 1:40AM, Freddeh wrote:

If the independent hadn't of popped up I would have agreed with you Rubik. As is 5 non-town in a 12-player game is highly unlikely.

I think the independants are probably town-aligned. (See previous vampire mafia: community.wizards.com/paranoia/go/thread...)

I'm probably going to act on the assumption that there are 3 mafia, but I think it's worth keeping in mind that the potential still exists for there to be 4.

I targeted TU last night.

Dec 3, 2012 -- 4:25AM, azuro_arcanis wrote:

I targeted TU last night.

I had a slight scum read on Azuro yesterday, so I decided to see what he would do last night.

Azuro targeted TU and TU turned up diablerized. But then, TU turned up Scum too. So I now have a slight Town read on Azuro.

It's only a slight Town read because there's many reasons why Scum might have wanted to diablerize one of their own. Perhaps TU had the group's kill ability or some other ability Mafia felt it was critical they keep. That's all just speculation, but seems possible enough that I won't flat out call Azuro Town, but I do now have him leaning Town.

@razor and rubik, given we are likely looking for one scum in a small pool, are you willing to out the third to lower the pool even further?

I would be willing to back up the person's statement if they outed themself.

Dec 3, 2012 -- 6:24PM, JayDreven wrote:

@razor and rubik, given we are likely looking for one scum in a small pool, are you willing to out the third to lower the pool even further?

as I've said, while I suspect they are town I have no intention of overtly vouching for them, making revealing their name not particularly useful. if they choose to reveal themself, I'll be more than happy to back them up. now please stop fishing.

 

Frankly no. We are at a point where we can start widdling people out as suspects yet you are insisting on holding on to non vital information. Frankly I find your actions more contrary to the town's benefit than minor fishing on my part.

So should be taken with a grain of salt since its in out guess the mod land, but looking at the distribution of players, I notices there are. 2 dead scum, one dead independent, and one dead sabbat aligned.

PereV, Freddeh, and I claimed camarilla.

The remainder alive(JD, Ahlyis, Razornorne, Pdr, Rubik) claimed sabbat.

That makes 6-3-1 Sabbat, camarilla Independent. It seams unlikely that there would only be 2 camirilla, and that scum would be willing to stick. here neck out for the minority. In summation I believe we will find the last scum among the claimed sabbat.

Of those, I'm considering rubik and Razorborne town right off the bat. Im then considering Pdr town for first wincon claim, and ahlyis town, for what will remain seemingly arbitrary reasons. This leaves JD.

For now I will shift my place holder vote to JD.

Vote:JD

Heh, Azuro and I are playing the same game. Well sort of. I'm not bringing alignment into it, as if the Cams and Sabbat's are running for the same side, their actual numbers break down are irrelevant from a design stand point.

My thought process looks more like this:

To start, the most town player in this game is Ahl. Ahl is pretty much confirmed in my book. Ahl is off the table.

Given Ahl's townness, I've removed Azuro from the table as well due to Ahl's judgement. Plus I find Azuro to be fairly reasonable and beneficial so far.

Next is Razor. Frankly I've found Razor's play nothing but town all game. He has been rather on the offensive, but never recklessly so.

Again, given how I find Razor to be swiftly town, I'm removing Rubik from the table also. Additionally, this would carry over to the third network man, whom I strongly believe to be either Pere or Fred.

Now that (kinda) removes five of the eight remaining players. Taking myself off the table (cuz I know me, I don't expect you to take me off the table) that leaves Pdr and Pere/Fred. As Azuro said Pdr was the first to bring the win con to the table, so he gets points there. That leaves either Pere or Fred in my book, depending on which one is in the network or not.

Dec 3, 2012 -- 7:58PM, JayDreven wrote:

Frankly no. We are at a point where we can start widdling people out as suspects yet you are insisting on holding on to non vital information. Frankly I find your actions more contrary to the town's benefit than minor fishing on my part.

tell me one reason why eating your way into our network provides any information on one's alignment and I'll consider it. but until then giving out free good targets for the mafia doesn't seem beneficial to me.

also, as JD points out, if Sabbat/Camarilla are really working toward the same goal, then the divide is a flavor one, which means that specific numbers are irrelevant.

also, since I have to place a vote, VOTE: JD. pending a full reread he's my biggest suspect.

Dec 3, 2012 -- 10:08PM, razorborne wrote:

tell me one reason why eating your way into our network provides any information on one's alignment and I'll consider it. but until then giving out free good targets for the mafia doesn't seem beneficial to me.

It doesn't. So why bogart something that's virtually irrelevant? As for free good targets, we haven't had any indication yet that the mafia can target, so your point there is mostly irrelevant. But even if you assume the mafia do have a method of targeting your third, you and Rubik also have the option of protecting your third. Your withholding this information provides absolutely no benefit to the town what so ever. However, making the information public will allow the town to make more informed decisions as they proceed to make their votes during the day. If we are operating under the notion that there is only one scum left, there is no reason to not lay our cards on the table, find what doesn't fit and end this game this day or the next.

Weren't you network people saying yesterday that the third person was scum? How are they town now?

Unless someone ate the scum that ate badguy. If thats the case, people should say so.

@Azuro- What are we looking at in terms of scum power? This is obviously way less improtant since I think there is only 1 left, but is there some reason they have been avoiding their NK action?

I tried to eat Febb last night, since I wanted him dead anyway. I failed at my action, but was not blocked or attacked or whatever, so someone got to him first.

Vote: JD, but the pool is pretty small at this point.

@Ahylis- so you have some sort of tracking power? Any other info?

Did anyone else try to eat TU last night? 

Vote: JD

Dec 3, 2012 -- 10:44PM, JayDreven wrote:

Dec 3, 2012 -- 10:08PM, razorborne wrote:

tell me one reason why eating your way into our network provides any information on one's alignment and I'll consider it. but until then giving out free good targets for the mafia doesn't seem beneficial to me.

It doesn't. So why bogart something that's virtually irrelevant? As for free good targets, we haven't had any indication yet that the mafia can target, so your point there is mostly irrelevant. But even if you assume the mafia do have a method of targeting your third, you and Rubik also have the option of protecting your third. Your withholding this information provides absolutely no benefit to the town what so ever. However, making the information public will allow the town to make more informed decisions as they proceed to make their votes during the day. If we are operating under the notion that there is only one scum left, there is no reason to not lay our cards on the table, find what doesn't fit and end this game this day or the next.

Because said person has successfully diablarized at least once (given that he inherited badguy's network slot), and giving that knowledge to the mafia is potentially dangerous.

If our third wants to make his identity known outside of the network, he is free to do so himself.

Dec 3, 2012 -- 10:59PM, PeregrineV wrote:

Weren't you network people saying yesterday that the third person was scum? How are they town now?

Unless someone ate the scum that ate badguy. If thats the case, people should say so.

We concluded that if the third person did not post, they were probably scum.

They posted.

---

Our 3rd networker was not ousted last night.

@Rubik, and as I said even if you assume scum can target, you and Razor can protect him. A point that you lot seem to be convienently ignoring so that you can continue to push a point that isn't really valid.

Dec 3, 2012 -- 11:44PM, JayDreven wrote:

@Rubik, and as I said even if you assume scum can target, you and Razor can protect him. A point that you lot seem to be convienently ignoring so that you can continue to push a point that isn't really valid.

And risk aggravated damage?

You do realize that dying is irrelevant if your faction still wins right?

Dec 3, 2012 -- 11:58PM, JayDreven wrote:

You do realize that dying is irrelevant if your faction still wins right?

I think trying to stay alive is probably more beneficial to the town.

If I felt like not revealing our third's identity would significantly hinder town, I would have done it already.

@ PereV: Based off the information I have it would seem that scum is on par with town in terms of power level. 3 disciplines + 1 item, and fairly equal in terms of starting power.

Dec 3, 2012 -- 7:10PM, razorborne wrote:

Dec 3, 2012 -- 6:24PM, JayDreven wrote:

@razor and rubik, given we are likely looking for one scum in a small pool, are you willing to out the third to lower the pool even further?

as I've said, while I suspect they are town I have no intention of overtly vouching for them, making revealing their name not particularly useful. if they choose to reveal themself, I'll be more than happy to back them up. now please stop fishing.

 

Why does Razor refer to the new participant in their network as they? It feels odd.

And why do you Razor say that there was no NK when Tevish was ousted? Because unless I missed someone claiming to have done so, he could have been the mafia's target.

The independent alignment as for the Camarilla and Sabbat are only in regards to what the clans normally belong to. Being independent doesn't mean non-town in this game since town in this game are those who are against the Antediluvians.

Actually at this point it's more probable that scum as claimed sabbat aligned since this was the first alinement to be exposed (due to the death of Badguy) since I don't think Mafia knows what type of alignment the town has. Consenquently has everyone claimed their alignment or not?

Dec 4, 2012 -- 12:17AM, Rubik wrote:

I think trying to stay alive is probably more beneficial to the town.

Why?

@Pdr, good question. Imma try to get a claim flow going.

Ahl claims Sabbat (due to having to look at own PM to see BG isn't scum)
Jay claims Sabbat (ditto'd and then outright stated to Pere)
Razor claims Sabbat (ditto'd)
[Pdr claims win con]
[Azuro claims win con]
Pere claims Cam (says FFP told him specifically he was town)
Fred claims Cam (post win con reveal and Pere stating FFP told him Cam was town)
Azuro claims Cam.
Pdr claims Sabbat.

So it looks like the only person to not have claimed is Rubik. I did start with BG's death post, so if he claimed the day before I would have missed it. Interestingly enough, while looking back I did notice that Rubik refers to "theindependent-s" while everybody else has been refering to Tevish in the singular "independent". He has also pushed the idea that independent is a third alignment that he believes is also "town". And he seems to have an issue with dying despite the fact that the town seems to be in a stellar lead. I submit that Rubik is actually independent.

Also of note, TU and Febb never claimed alignment, but were both of Cam aligned clans. If Rubik is independent as well, that would make it five to five in Cam vs Sabbat once you included BG as well in terms of what a designer might expect to be publicly claimed. With this in mind, I do not think town should close off the camarilla as lynch suspects at this point (Fred particularly).

Dec 3, 2012 -- 10:44PM, JayDreven wrote:

Dec 3, 2012 -- 10:08PM, razorborne wrote:

tell me one reason why eating your way into our network provides any information on one's alignment and I'll consider it. but until then giving out free good targets for the mafia doesn't seem beneficial to me.

It doesn't. So why bogart something that's virtually irrelevant? As for free good targets, we haven't had any indication yet that the mafia can target, so your point there is mostly irrelevant. But even if you assume the mafia do have a method of targeting your third, you and Rubik also have the option of protecting your third. Your withholding this information provides absolutely no benefit to the town what so ever. However, making the information public will allow the town to make more informed decisions as they proceed to make their votes during the day. If we are operating under the notion that there is only one scum left, there is no reason to not lay our cards on the table, find what doesn't fit and end this game this day or the next.

"there is no value to this information. you are killing the town by protecting it."

this is world-class reasoning right here. please either give us a concrete reason to reveal it or stop trying to browbeat the information out of us. also stop contradicting yourself. if the information is worthless how did you use it in your breakdown to remove the third networker from suspicion? they didn't start in the network, and neither me nor Rubik expressed any certainty that they were town. what part of their talking to us outside the thread makes them town?

 

I didn't say it was killing the town, I said town can use it to have a more complete picture and make better judgements about how to procede. That's a pro for revealing it. There are no pros for not. Only your what ifs that have been offered solutions to. This is hardly a contradiction especially given you are trying to assert you have no clue as to his townliness, which gives you less of a reason to protect him, not more.

Dec 3, 2012 -- 7:58PM, JayDreven wrote:

Frankly no. We are at a point where we can start widdling people out as suspects yet you are insisting on holding on to non vital information. Frankly I find your actions more contrary to the town's benefit than minor fishing on my part.

The information provides no benefit to Town. The information provides potential benefit to Scum in that it gives them a target with at least 2 people's worth of skills they can absorb. that you keep trying to paint the situation as the exact opposite does not look at all good. That you've dcontinued to try to paint it that way even after several people have pointed it out lokks even less "good".

I will also be voting JD today, but it is early enough and he has enough votes on him already that I don't see any need to rush it. We still have plenty we can discuss... whether we actually will or not remains to be seen.

Once the Day looks to be pretty much dead as far as discussion goes, I'll add my vote for JD. This assumes my opinion doesn't shift, obv.

Dec 3, 2012 -- 10:59PM, PeregrineV wrote:

@Ahylis- so you have some sort of tracking power? Any other info?

Did anyone else try to eat TU last night? 

Yes, I have a tracking ability. I will admit that the Tracking ability came from studying one of my disciplines Night 1, which is apparently where I lost one blood as well.

I tracked Azuro, not TU, so I only know who Azuro targeted, not whether anyone else targeted TU as well.

I usually proofread my posts. No idea why I posted that typo filled mess without proofreading it.

Dec 4, 2012 -- 9:23AM, JayDreven wrote:

I didn't say it was killing the town, I said town can use it to have a more complete picture and make better judgements about how to procede. That's a pro for revealing it. There are no pros for not. Only your what ifs that have been offered solutions to. This is hardly a contradiction especially given you are trying to assert you have no clue as to his townliness, which gives you less of a reason to protect him, not more.

the town would also have a more complete picture if you fully claimed right now. I don't see you doing that, though. why? because that more complete picture wouldn't help identify who is and isn't town, and it would give the mafia a good idea of whether or not you're worth targetting. Neighbor C is in the same boat. revealing their identity does nothing in terms of identifying mafia. they will be just as likely scum pre-reveal as post-reveal. whereas revealing their identity does tell the mafia that they have at least two sets of abilities, and therefore would be just a great person to try to take out. We know the mafia likely doesn't have a true NK, unless someone's been protecting/blocking like a champ, but until we see the design file we don't know what they do have, so I'm gonna keep assuming they have something. if you have concrete evidence to the contrary, though, feel free to provide it.

Dec 4, 2012 -- 9:47AM, Ahlyis wrote:

I will also be voting JD today, but it is early enough and he has enough votes on him already that I don't see any need to rush it. We still have plenty we can discuss... whether we actually will or not remains to be seen.

for what it's worth, FFP made it so majority vote didn't end the day prematurely, to allow for his "everyone votes" policy to not have unintended side effects.

Ahl I find your assessment of the situation to be by and large incorrect. Revealing the third gives the town a completer picture of the current game state. This is a benefit.

Not reveal the third gives the town no benefit. All it does is keep a potential hit from happening. Now let's talk about this possible course of action. Say the third is in the open, to hit him the mafia would have to make it through double protection, at least. And that's just to kill the guy. Then they would have to compete with every other town member the next night trying to either diablerize him themselves, protect him, or resurrect him. Needless to say that's an uphill battle spanning two seperate nights for scum to get a hold something they know nothing about other than he's in the network.

What's more, that doesn't even take into account you just claimed tracker and would be the priority kill.

If I seem like I'm down playing the situation that's only because the situation isn't as dangerous for the town as you lot are making out to be. Yet you have yet to address any of this counter argumentation, instead choosing to go with a smear campaign.

Dec 4, 2012 -- 11:26AM, JayDreven wrote:

Needless to say that's an uphill battle spanning two seperate nights for scum to get a hold something they know nothing about other than he's in the network.

this is where your point is stupid.

you know how they got into the network? because they didn't start in it. you know that much. they got in by diablerizing. that means they're a double role. the mafia knows that, whoever it is, they have 6 disciplines and two equipments. they know one of those 8 powers in a network, but they know that the other 7 could be anything, and they know that half the town doesn't have that. handing them a free "here is a free double nightkill value" sign is bad, and you've yet to explain why "a more complete picture" in this case actually helps. as I've said there's lots of information that could provide a "more complete picture", why is this piece special?

 

Just a note to the networkers- If scum had access to your network, they could have given the link in thier scum QT, so mafia could have access to it even though they may not be allowed to post. I would think that the rules generally disallow this, but you also may want to check with FFP.

And don't post tactics, etc. until you get clarification. 

@razor: you do realize you are making a case for mass claims to never happen, right? But they do when the game dwindles down because its better for town to have that completer picture. The reason I haven't done so is because nobody has expressed an interest. But for my side of the arguments sake, I'm antitribu brujah. My first attribute is strength that I've increased. My second is a dodge strike, this also prevents me from dealing damage in combat since I won't be taking any. My equipment is a flak jacket, which reduces the damage I take by one.

Now if you bothered to read the numbers break down I posted after azuro's, you would know why I want to know who the third is. "But Nah we aren't going to vouch for him...". Too late, you are already doing it. If you had doubts you wouldn't be trying this hard to protect him. As I've gone over, its a major effort by scum to take him. Operating under the notion there is one scum left, it would probably take the rest of the game. If he had an ability that was game shattering and worth protecting, he would have done something with it by now. This tells me he doesn't, so again you are protecting arbitrarily. Again, ahl is a claimed tracker so a priority kill anyway. Now frankly I'd rather dangle another worm on the line even if to give them a moments hesitation on targeting ahl if somebody is goingto die tonight. Why you'd rather sacrifice a tracker for somebody you aren't even sure is town enough to vouch for is beyond me.

Dec 4, 2012 -- 11:54AM, PeregrineV wrote:

Just a note to the networkers- If scum had access to your network, they could have given the link in thier scum QT, so mafia could have access to it even though they may not be allowed to post. I would think that the rules generally disallow this, but you also may want to check with FFP.

And don't post tactics, etc. until you get clarification. 

that would mean that one of the current members is scum anyway.

Dec 4, 2012 -- 12:11PM, JayDreven wrote:

@razor: you do realize you are making a case for mass claims to never happen, right? But they do when the game dwindles down because its better for town to have that completer picture. The reason I haven't done so is because nobody has expressed an interest. But for my side of the arguments sake, I'm antitribu brujah. My first attribute is strength that I've increased. My second is a dodge strike, this also prevents me from dealing damage in combat since I won't be taking any. My equipment is a flak jacket, which reduces the damage I take by one. Now if you bothered to read the numbers break down I posted after azuro's, you would know why I want to know who the third is. "But Nah we aren't going to vouch for him...". Too late, you are already doing it. If you had doubts you wouldn't be trying this hard to protect him. As I've gone over, its a major effort by scum to take him. Operating under the notion there is one scum left, it would probably take the rest of the game. If he had an ability that was game shattering and worth protecting, he would have done something with it by now. This tells me he doesn't, so again you are protecting arbitrarily. Again, ahl is a claimed tracker so a priority kill anyway. Now frankly I'd rather dangle another worm on the line even if to give them a moments hesitation on targeting ahl if somebody is goingto die tonight. Why you'd rather sacrifice a tracker for somebody you aren't even sure is town enough to vouch for is beyond me.

there are 8 players left.

I believe only one of them is scum.

therefore I can state with 87.5% confidence that any random player is town. so if I have no reason to lean either way, I am going to assume my network chum is town. and since I do have a reason to lean toward him being town (you being scum) that number goes up. but it goes up an equal amount for Ahl, Azuro, Freddeh, Pere, and Pdr, so whichever one of those it is (I think it's been made fairly clear at this point that it's not you.) I have good reason to believe they're town. but that reason has nothing to do with being in a network with me, so I see no reason to out them.

also, you're drawing a pretty false comparison with mass claims. mass claims are a voluntary thing. as Rubik and I have both stated, if that person chooses to claim, we'll back them up. but if they want to keep it a secret, I'm not gonna out them. if the town decides to do a mass claim, that's a very different thing than demanding that I claim someone else's role for them.

look at this a different way. say badguy and Rubik hadn't pointlessly outed the network day 1. say you didn't know about it. would it be poor play for me to continue to keep it a secret? no, of course not. so why is it wrong for me to keep part of it a secret now?

 

Dec 4, 2012 -- 11:26AM, JayDreven wrote:

Ahl I find your assessment of the situation to be by and large incorrect. Revealing the third gives the town a completer picture of the current game state. This is a benefit.

How? How is it any more beneficial or useful for Town than any other random piece of information? How would it specifically benefit Town in hunting Mafia? You keep saying it is a benefit, but the only "benefit" I see is that we'd then know who diablerized badguy. So what? Why is that "beneficial" to Town? It seems like that info would benefit Mafia far more than it would Town. So I'm not seeing the "benefit" of it.

Dec 4, 2012 -- 11:26AM, JayDreven wrote:

Not reveal the third gives the town no benefit. All it does is keep a potential hit from happening. Now let's talk about this possible course of action. Say the third is in the open, to hit him the mafia would have to make it through double protection, at least. And that's just to kill the guy.

So, you not only want to give more info to Mafia, you also want to ensure that at least two of the Town members cannot do anything at night other than stand guard. No training, no using other abilities, just keep them nicely out of the way.

Dec 4, 2012 -- 11:26AM, JayDreven wrote:

Then they would have to compete with every other town member the next night trying to either diablerize him themselves, protect him, or resurrect him. Needless to say that's an uphill battle spanning two seperate nights for scum to get a hold something they know nothing about other than he's in the network.

You seem awfully confident about how everyone will behave! You paint this picture as if these are the only things we can expect to happen.

Dec 4, 2012 -- 11:26AM, JayDreven wrote:

What's more, that doesn't even take into account you just claimed tracker and would be the priority kill.

You use this to argue why Mafia won't go after the revealed networker, and yet you also argue that the other two networkers have to protect them each night once they are revealed. Make up your mind.

Dec 4, 2012 -- 11:26AM, JayDreven wrote:

If I seem like I'm down playing the situation that's only because the situation isn't as dangerous for the town as you lot are making out to be.

You still haven't shown any way the info is more beneficial to Town or even beneficial at all for Town. Just because you say it doesn't make it true!

Dec 4, 2012 -- 11:15AM, razorborne wrote:

for what it's worth, FFP made it so majority vote didn't end the day prematurely, to allow for his "everyone votes" policy to not have unintended side effects.

Good enough.

Unvote (if I was voting anyone). Vote: JD

@razor, mass claims arent a voluntary thing. You don't get to choose if you want to participate or not. Once enough people decide its going to happen you have no choice. Before it gets to that one person suggests it and details why it should happen at that juncture. If you oppose it you state why. That's where we are now in the comparison. I've stated why I wtant it and why it wouldn't be harmful to the town. You've chosen to side step the issue completely and mudsling to make your side look more "good". I never demanded you give up the third. I asked if you were willing to do so and then entered a discussion on the why and why nots of doing so.

Looking at things differently, that would really be poor play on your part at this juncture. With nothing else to go on you could have opened up a discussion juncture today and took charge of the scum hunt rather than sitting back and doing nothing today like you have been doing.

@ahl, I never said it was more beneficial than any other piece of information. It's just as valuable an asset for town as every other piece. It just happens to be the piece I need in my thought process. But a mass claim relatively soon is an excellent idea since the game could be in the throws of winding down if people weren't content to sit around and randomly lynch people.

Frankly I don't really care if the third dies or not. As I've pointed out that would keep mafia potentially busy until game end anyways. All I was saying is that if you are really worried about it, you have other options. As for being awefully sure of how other people will act, people are greedy. They won't want to chance losing things to somebody else, so most of them will act like I've predicted. Will everybody? Probably not. I'm sure you'll go for a track and any town with half a brain will try to protect you tonight. At least that's how I'd play it.

official votecount

JD (5): JD, azuro, razor, pere, ahlyis

boo @ azuro for not unvoting before revoting
boo @ razor for hiding his vote in a block of text

deadline in 5 days and 22 hours

Dec 4, 2012 -- 1:42PM, JayDreven wrote:

@razor, mass claims arent a voluntary thing. You don't get to choose if you want to participate or not. Once enough people decide its going to happen you have no choice.

technically you always have a choice. if nothing else you can claim vanilla. it's not necessarily a good idea, but it's an option.

Dec 4, 2012 -- 1:42PM, JayDreven wrote:

Before it gets to that one person suggests it and details why it should happen at that juncture. If you oppose it you state why. That's where we are now in the comparison. I've stated why I wtant it and why it wouldn't be harmful to the town. You've chosen to side step the issue completely and mudsling to make your side look more "good".

yeah that's a fairly unbiased evaluation of what happened. you stated "nuh-uh it won't hurt the town." I pointed out it wouldn't help the town. you went "yes it will yes it will!" and, in my imagination, jumped up and down. all you've given in terms of benefit is "it will paint a clearer picture", which is great, but like I said so would claiming. you went ahead and claimed. did you see anything good come of that? no, because random, meaningless information doesn't inherently help. all you did was announce that you hadn't diablerized anyone and thus wouldn't be a good target tonight. you also claimed to be tough to kill. unless you're lying, do you not see how this is a problem? you argue that Ahl is the obvious kill, but neglect that this is a game where everyone's a bodyguard. if we're worried about Ahl getting got, we can protect him. but if there's two great targets out in the open, that demands more of the town's resources. and now Mafia McGee knows that, if he's worried about Ahl being too protected, he shouldn't target you. meanwhile we as a town gained... what? the knowledge that you're worthless and if we're wrong about you being scum there's no real loss? although you only claimed two disciplines, so even in your show of transparency you apparently decided that sometimes information should stay hidden, which is kinda exactly what I've been saying.

Dec 4, 2012 -- 1:42PM, JayDreven wrote:

I never demanded you give up the third. I asked if you were willing to do so and then entered a discussion on the why and why nots of doing so.

I asked you to stop fishing. you bluntly refused.

Dec 4, 2012 -- 1:42PM, JayDreven wrote:

Looking at things differently, that would really be poor play on your part at this juncture. With nothing else to go on you could have opened up a discussion juncture today and took charge of the scum hunt rather than sitting back and doing nothing today like you have been doing.

I don't know, I'm pretty confident I found a scum. 

Dec 4, 2012 -- 1:42PM, JayDreven wrote:

I'm sure you'll go for a track and any town with half a brain will try to protect you tonight. At least that's how I'd play it.

I certainly intend to track someone tonight, though I won't decide who until after night falls. I may try to follow whoever I feel is scummiest, but I've also been known to pick someone down on my list instead. I did that in Touhou 3 with PK. I was cop and decided to investigate him even though I thought he was likely Town. He turned out to be Scum. I may try something similar here... or maybe not. Anyway, I won't make any final decision until after night falls.

Whether anyone wants to try to protect me or not, I'm certainly not asking for it. As far as we've seen, Mafia doesn't have the ability to completely oust someone in one night, so doing your own thing tonight and only considering trying to help me tomorrow IF I end up needing it is certainly a reasonable thing to do.

whoops that middle paragraph wound up being two trains of thought crashing together. hopefully the points I'm makng are clear, but it's fairly disorganized. sorry.

 

Vote: JD

@razor, technically that's still not having a choice in the matter. In a mass claim you have to claim or you will be lynched for refusing. Now you could lie or you could just accept being lynched, but neither of these are the option of deciding for yourself whether you feel like you should participate.

That is a rather unbiased assessment. Rather than answer and partake in a discussion you flat out told me to drop the matter, which is what I blatantly refused to do because town gets no where by avoiding discussion. You know this. I know this. Yet you've continually tried to avoid this topic since rubik brought it up, which tells me this has nothing to do with the third, but rather you are avoiding things that will lead to more information about razor being in the open.

You are right about one thing though, I did miss one of my traits. chalk it up to mobile disorganisation. Azuro might know what I'm talking about. Maybe not. But the missing piece wasn't intentional. What's missing is my dread gaze, that has a 50% chance of ending combat regardless of presses. As I said at the start of the game, I wasn't built for diablerizing, so its never been my focus. I did try though, but failed much the same as azuro (although i targeted febb as I found it odd he made it back to post but still didn't vote).

Does this information tell you I'm town or scum? Of course not. But then neither does the information presented in a mass claim, yet you still find it acceptable to ask for that. That's because even though we don't get all the answers from this random irrelephant information we can draw inferences and connections. This is important in this game especially because our dead scum didn't come from scum hunting. They came because they were inactive, which leaves us without the information and connections a normally lynched mafia would bring (read as asdociated with other player in thread interaction). If we shut off our other sources of information as well, we are left twiddling our thumbs and randomly lynching. Why you think this is a benefit to the town is beyond me.

JD, no matter how you slice it, you are demanding that one player reveal information about another player's role. It's not Razor's place to reveal that information unless he believes the person to be a threat to Town. So long as Razor thinks the person may be Town, it isn't his place to reveal that person's info.

If you want to push this, you should be demanding that whoever is the third member of the network should out themselves. There's no justification for you hounding Razor into outing them.

My vote on you stands, for this along with all the rest.

I am demanding nothing of one player. I'm talking at two about a hypothetical third. But this isn't a crap shoot conversation. Everybody is encouraged to discuss and weigh in. My point in comparing it to the mass claim is that the individual third opinion is irrelevant. What matters is the general consensus. If more people say reveal it, it no longer becomes an issue of razor or rubik's place. Bit if we do not have this discussion and avoid the topic as taboo as razor wants, then no consensus will be established. What I am pushing is this conversation, and nothing more. Why are you opposed to a conversation discussing the pros and cons of taking a certain action? (Razor and rubik feel free to answer this one as well)

As an aside, I got my wires crossed in my last post. I said azuro failed to diablerize TU, but i was thinking that was in the chain after ahl claimed tracker, but was a random by Pere about targeting febb himself.

Dec 4, 2012 -- 6:01PM, JayDreven wrote:

What I am pushing is this conversation, and nothing more. Why are you opposed to a conversation discussing the pros and cons of taking a certain action? (Razor and rubik feel free to answer this one as well)

I've been more than happy to discuss the pros and cons. the cons are giving the mafia free role information. the pros are "a clearer picture", which, from what I can tell, means nothing.

mass claims help by forcing the mafia to lie. since being in the network has no relation to alignment, and since there are three people capable of independently confirming the third networker's identity, any mafia involved in the equation both has no reason to lie and couldn't lie if they wanted to. there's no comparison.

 

Dec 4, 2012 -- 6:26PM, razorborne wrote:

Dec 4, 2012 -- 6:01PM, JayDreven wrote:

What I am pushing is this conversation, and nothing more. Why are you opposed to a conversation discussing the pros and cons of taking a certain action? (Razor and rubik feel free to answer this one as well)

I've been more than happy to discuss the pros and cons. the cons are giving the mafia free role information. the pros are "a clearer picture", which, from what I can tell, means nothing.

That's why you told me to drop it right off the bat without discussing anything.
Let's take a kit kat break time and look at some random hypothetical:

Suppose Fred is the third. Yesterday I accused him of baseless bandwagoning. Given the lack of information, that's about as solid as a vote would get early today (pre discussion). Now say you came out and said Fred was the third. Suddenly Fred's bandwagoning isn't so baseless. He's following the lead of a network buddy. There was possibly private discussion on suspicions. Now does any of this tell me, an outsider, what Fred's alignment is? No. But it does create that clearer picture and allow me to see interactions and make deductions I could not make before. My reasoning changes, as does my vote most likely.

These connections and deductions are what I'm talking about when I say a clearer picture. And if you read my numbers deduction, you'd see why I'm after the third specifically, but as I stated earlier we are about at the point where a full on mass claim would be a good idea.

mass claims help by forcing the mafia to lie. since being in the network has no relation to alignment, and since there are three people capable of independently confirming the third networker's identity, any mafia involved in the equation both has no reason to lie and couldn't lie if they wanted to. there's no comparison.

 

Actually there's quite the comparison since there are only a handful of mafia roles (if you look at the common roles in the info center only Don and Poisoner are listed as mafia specific and Poisoner really doesn't even fit that bill since you could have a vig poisoner...I think this has been done actually. Maybe) that one needs to lie about having. Most of the others (vanilla, roleblocker, etc) don't require lying. As I was getting at in the above, we don't mass claim to try and force people to lie, we do it so we can create a clearer picture and lynch more effectively rather than from a position of uncertainty.

I told you to drop it because it's not your call what of my private information you need to know. if and when I believe that it's more valuable to inform the town than to protect neighbor C, I'll do so. Rubik will do the same if he reaches that conclusion, as will Neighbor C. at this point, you don't know enough to know whether or not it's right, and you won't until you know who it is and what has transpired in our QT.

Dec 4, 2012 -- 9:23PM, JayDreven wrote:

Suppose Fred is the third. Yesterday I accused him of baseless bandwagoning. Given the lack of information, that's about as solid as a vote would get early today (pre discussion). Now say you came out and said Fred was the third. Suddenly Fred's bandwagoning isn't so baseless. He's following the lead of a network buddy. There was possibly private discussion on suspicions. Now does any of this tell me, an outsider, what Fred's alignment is? No. But it does create that clearer picture and allow me to see interactions and make deductions I could not make before. My reasoning changes, as does my vote most likely.

you say that, and yet you already said you consider the third networker town, without knowing that information. stop backtracking.

Dec 4, 2012 -- 9:23PM, JayDreven wrote:

Actually there's quite the comparison since there are only a handful of mafia roles (if you look at the common roles in the info center only Don and Poisoner are listed as mafia specific and Poisoner really doesn't even fit that bill since you could have a vig poisoner...I think this has been done actually. Maybe) that one needs to lie about having. Most of the others (vanilla, roleblocker, etc) don't require lying. As I was getting at in the above, we don't mass claim to try and force people to lie, we do it so we can create a clearer picture and lynch more effectively rather than from a position of uncertainty.

if you're a mafia roleblocker, you likely have to lie because people know the roleblocker was clearly used in an anti-town manner prior to that. if you're vanilla mafia, then you might have to lie to avoid there being too many vanillas. no matter what, your role has nothing to do with the town role layout, which means that you will likely have to misrepresent yourself in some way to try to fit into that portrait. here, there's no ambiguity of any sort. there is a clear answer, and you don't need it. that isn't just coming from me, it's coming from a consensus of the three people who actually have it. unless you believe me, Rubik, and whoever's behind door number 3 are all scum, you're just gonna have to trust us.

@razor, I'm not back tracking. If you had read my numbers post you would know why I want that information. But since you have no idea, I can only assume you haven't bothered to read it, which tells me you aren't interested in participating in discussion today (you didn't bother addressing azuro's either) and have no desire to scum hunt, as you've done virtually none all game.

As for the consensus you are stating exists, this is the first it has come up that the three of you have said its information I don't need. You and Rubik's stance up till this point has been if the third wants out himself he will. This is a vastly different statement. And unless you are claiming Ahl is the third and has been playing a long con since the beginning of day 2, three people have not said this to me. I find your first line very intriguing though. Ahl is voting for me because I'm asking you to divulge information about another player. Yet you clearly say you told me to drop it because I don't get to decide what of "my" information I need to know. How about you drop the act razor. There is no third, is there?

As for lying, role situations only apply if you've malaciously used your role on already outted roles. Otherwise it can be written off as coincidence. As for vanilla, unless the game has stated number of vanillas and they are all dead, you either get to hide in a smaller number of vanillas or people are going to be throwing meta arguments at you, which should be easier to get out of than trying to make people buy your fake role with fake targets and fake results. Both of these call for very specific scenarios for lying, which would make them the exception, not the rule.

I give up. I have no idea how to get through to JD. I suspect this is because he actually does understand the points we're all making, but he's backed himself into a corner now and can't see a way out.

Regardless, it doesn't change my opinion on his likely alignment.

Ahl, I think you may be too fresh to know about the game I attacked the claimed cop who had already delivered scum, but razor might know the story. The long and short of it was jay got bored so he entertained himself though.

Dec 5, 2012 -- 6:13AM, JayDreven wrote:

@razor, I'm not back tracking. If you had read my numbers post you would know why I want that information.

by numbers post, do you mean this? because if so then I assume you're referring to this section:

Dec 3, 2012 -- 9:28PM, JayDreven wrote:

Again, given how I find Razor to be swiftly town, I'm removing Rubik from the table also. Additionally, this would carry over to the third network man, whom I strongly believe to be either Pere or Fred. 

and, as I've said, my alignment has no bearing on the third person's alignment. I'm not confident enough that they're town to vouch for them in any meaningful way, and we have no mod confirmation of alignments on which to base any deductions. so apparently giving you this information will just let you draw lines where none exist, and write off people who should be suspects.

look at it this way: if being in a network with a townie made you town, then me and Rubik would already be confirmed. there's no way there's three remaining scum, which means at least one of us must be town. that means there's a townie in the network. that townieness apparently moves through some magical conduit onto all of us, meaning that there is no way me or Rubik could be anything but town. and since your own reasoning make us both confirmed town, how about you trust that we're acting in your best interest?

or you could admit that your logic is terrible and the fact that I don't understand it is more of a reflection on its inability to make the slightest amount of sense than it is an indication of my intentions.

Dec 5, 2012 -- 6:13AM, JayDreven wrote:

But since you have no idea, I can only assume you haven't bothered to read it, which tells me you aren't interested in participating in discussion today (you didn't bother addressing azuro's either) and have no desire to scum hunt, as you've done virtually none all game.

woah, what happened to "Frankly I've found Razor's play nothing but town all game. He has been rather on the offensive, but never recklessly so."? your words, man. look, if you want to change your opinion of me based on my actions today go ahead, that's how this game works. but don't pretend like you thought I was doing nothing the whole time. either you're lying now or you were lying then.

Dec 5, 2012 -- 6:13AM, JayDreven wrote:

As for the consensus you are stating exists, this is the first it has come up that the three of you have said its information I don't need. You and Rubik's stance up till this point has been if the third wants out himself he will. This is a vastly different statement.

no it's not. I've decided not to tell you. Rubik has decided not to tell you. Neighbor C has decided not to tell you. that's a unanimous agreement not to tell you. we've discussed it a little in our quicktopic, but really, the evidence should be pretty clear by now that we agree you don't need to know from the fact that you don't know. if the information were to come to light, we'd happily confirm/deny it, but each of us has clearly decided that the downsides outweigh the benefits.

Dec 5, 2012 -- 6:13AM, JayDreven wrote:

And unless you are claiming Ahl is the third and has been playing a long con since the beginning of day 2, three people have not said this to me.

it's not all about you bro.

Dec 5, 2012 -- 6:13AM, JayDreven wrote:

I find your first line very intriguing though. Ahl is voting for me because I'm asking you to divulge information about another player. Yet you clearly say you told me to drop it because I don't get to decide what of "my" information I need to know. How about you drop the act razor. There is no third, is there?

YOU CAUGHT ME

RUBIK ISN'T EVEN REAL

I MADE THIS WHOLE NETWORK UP SO PEOPLE WOULD TALK TO ME

or maybe part of my role is my ability to talk to and know the identity of Neighbor C. maybe that's what I meant. god, you're really grasping at straws, aren't you?

Dec 5, 2012 -- 6:13AM, JayDreven wrote:

As for lying, role situations only apply if you've malaciously used your role on already outted roles. Otherwise it can be written off as coincidence. As for vanilla, unless the game has stated number of vanillas and they are all dead, you either get to hide in a smaller number of vanillas or people are going to be throwing meta arguments at you, which should be easier to get out of than trying to make people buy your fake role with fake targets and fake results. Both of these call for very specific scenarios for lying, which would make them the exception, not the rule.

right, but you have to weigh the risks of claiming something true and giving the town information about you or lying to try to cover your tracks. in addition, once you've exposed yourself as a targetting/non-targetting role, you need to watch for trackers/watchers/what have you, who see you doing things you wouldn't do if you were town. it tells people what you can do, and they can infer from that what a townie would do with that power. if you don't do that, there's numerous ways to get caught. the point, though, is to force the mafia into an uncomfortable choice. it's to try to make them either expose things they didn't want us to know or catch them in a lie.

here, there's no "catching" neighbor C. you can make all sorts of assumptions about their actions from their identity, but without reading the QT you have no way of knowing if those assumptions are right. tell you what. let's make a deal. if there's a real danger of a lynch on Neighbor C, due to something that seemed unexplained in the thread but in fact made perfect sense if you read the QT discussion, I'll step up and defend them. in that case, there'll be a direct benefit: I'll save a townie. but for now, if you don't know if, to use your example, Freddeh was baselessly bandwagoning or following a network buddy's lead, I don't see that as a big deal, since Freddeh's not up for lynch for that. if and when he is, I'll let you know. deal?

 

Dec 5, 2012 -- 11:18AM, razorborne wrote:

YOU CAUGHT ME

RUBIK ISN'T EVEN REAL

I MADE THIS WHOLE NETWORK UP SO PEOPLE WOULD TALK TO ME

Are the voices in my head bothering you too?

Dec 5, 2012 -- 11:18AM, razorborne wrote:

YOU CAUGHT ME

RUBIK ISN'T EVEN REAL

I MADE THIS WHOLE NETWORK UP SO PEOPLE WOULD TALK TO ME

Dang, there goes the plan.

@JD- If I read right, you claimed Sabbat antitrubu, which means, in effect, Camarilla (I think). If that is the case, what's up with all of the "lynch Camarilla" attitude?
Also, did you claim your clan?

Are people currently voting for JD because he's arguing, or because they think he is the last scum? 

@Pere, I claimed brujah for the clan. But Sabbath antitribu =\= camarilla. Essentially what you are looking at is a civil war. Your antitribu are going to be people from one class who have decided to join the ranks of the other. As is the case in most civil wars, they are probably seen as turn coats by their original class and they have chosen to stand against that class's values, so its only natural to see them as enemies, not allies.

Most of the votes are because I'm arguing. I'm at 6(?) Votes now, three of which are because I'm arguing, one is mine, one is azuro's numbers break down (while heavily meta-y, is the only one that actually makes a compelling case to vote against me), and the last is yours that I didn't label as, iirc, you didn't post a definitive reason. I think.

@razor, you seem to be under the notion that scum hunting and being on the offensive are synonymous, which frankly isnt the case. If you had been scum hunting all game, I would have stated as much. But Oi haven't. You've merely been on the offensive against tevish, lock jawed. But now that tevish is dead, you are becoming a thread recluse and have only participated in this discussion today because I dragged you into it kicking and screaming.

As for consensus, silence doesn't equate to consensus. It could be a multitude of things, indecision for example. And your stance on the record until your last post is, its in the thirds hands. When the third remains silent, a consensus isnt automatically formed. Now if you had said something along the lines of "we will talk it over and I'll let you know what he wants passed along." beforehand, I might agree with you. But as things stand, I don't feel I have a choice but to believe your main motivation is simply to end this conversation as soon as possible, as the longer it goes on the more apparent it will become that you are lying. This is undoubtedly why you have done all the talking and rubik, the less experienced player, has simply stayed quiet, not even posting anything in his vote post besides his vote.

On that subject, I take it you have absolutely no defense, and thats why you replied non seriously before tryig to say you didn't want to reveal that information about your that's already public. Big reveal there.

Finally, the only people you'll catch in a mass claim are those who lie. As I've gone over before, that's a very specific set. Your counter argument is you'll be hindered if you don't. Or you'll be set free. Say there's a tracker and you claimed blocker, make the townie play, get town pants and win the game. That seems like a very unfortunate turn of events for having to tell the truth in a mass claim.

Dec 6, 2012 -- 9:45AM, JayDreven wrote:

As for consensus, silence doesn't equate to consensus. It could be a multitude of things, indecision for example. And your stance on the record until your last post is, its in the thirds hands. When the third remains silent, a consensus isnt automatically formed. Now if you had said something along the lines of "we will talk it over and I'll let you know what he wants passed along." beforehand, I might agree with you. But as things stand, I don't feel I have a choice but to believe your main motivation is simply to end this conversation as soon as possible, as the longer it goes on the more apparent it will become that you are lying.

Wait. What?

Just what is it you think he's lying about? Are you saying you don't believe there is a third member? Or do you believe he is lying about something else?

I honestly cannot figure this out.

Dec 6, 2012 -- 9:45AM, JayDreven wrote:

Finally, the only people you'll catch in a mass claim are those who lie.

That's almost comical. Are you serious? I actually think you are. And that just makes it even more comical.

WHY do people lie in a mass claim? According to you, they'd be just fine if they simply told the truth.

Dec 6, 2012 -- 9:45AM, JayDreven wrote:

@razor, you seem to be under the notion that scum hunting and being on the offensive are synonymous, which frankly isnt the case. If you had been scum hunting all game, I would have stated as much. But Oi haven't. You've merely been on the offensive against tevish, lock jawed.

yeah good think I didn't catch any self-aligned players while everyone was ignoring me or anything. that would've been really embarassing for the town.

Dec 6, 2012 -- 9:45AM, JayDreven wrote:

But now that tevish is dead, you are becoming a thread recluse and have only participated in this discussion today because I dragged you into it kicking and screaming.

yeah this statement is not backed up by facts. in the day between when the day started and when you first brought up neighbors, I posted twice. if you're claiming that after that, I was not active, then your memory needs some serious assistance. I've posted 13 times since day started, each time a substantial amount. most have been in response to you because there's not much else to talk about. there's Pere's wild flavor speculation, there's Pdr's illuminating "why is razor referring to someone whose identity he wants to protect with a neutral pronoun?" question, and that's about it. I haven't been a recluse in any sense of the word, you're just ignoring what I'm saying because I disagree with you.

Dec 6, 2012 -- 9:45AM, JayDreven wrote:

As for consensus, silence doesn't equate to consensus. It could be a multitude of things, indecision for example. And your stance on the record until your last post is, its in the thirds hands. When the third remains silent, a consensus isnt automatically formed. Now if you had said something along the lines of "we will talk it over and I'll let you know what he wants passed along." beforehand, I might agree with you.

yeah you're right let me just go have the conversation we had yesterday when they first joined the network oh wait I already had that conversation.

also, you're just being needlessly and, I can only hope, purposefully obstinate at this point. each of the three of us has the power to unilaterally decide for the group to provide this information. none of us has. which means each of us believes that that information is better kept secret. yes, one of us could be unsure that they're correct, but as of right now, each of us has come down on the "don't tell you" side, because each of us has not told you

Dec 6, 2012 -- 9:45AM, JayDreven wrote:

But as things stand, I don't feel I have a choice but to believe your main motivation is simply to end this conversation as soon as possible, as the longer it goes on the more apparent it will become that you are lying. This is undoubtedly why you have done all the talking and rubik, the less experienced player, has simply stayed quiet, not even posting anything in his vote post besides his vote.

wait.

is your theory that me and Rubik are lying about the network and are secretly the mafia?

you know the existence of the network was confirmed by Badguy, or as I like to refer to him, confirmed town, right?

if that's not your theory, then what exactly am I lying about? give me a single pro to claiming a third member when none exists. go on. I'll wait. remember, Rubik could call me out on lying at any time, so he's clearly in on it too. what do Rubik and I, together, as a unit, get from convincing you that a third person is talking to us outside the thread?

 

Dec 6, 2012 -- 9:45AM, JayDreven wrote:

Finally, the only people you'll catch in a mass claim are those who lie. As I've gone over before, that's a very specific set. Your counter argument is you'll be hindered if you don't. Or you'll be set free. Say there's a tracker and you claimed blocker, make the townie play, get town pants and win the game. That seems like a very unfortunate turn of events for having to tell the truth in a mass claim.

aren't you the one who accused me of arguing against the idea of mass claims?

 

Dec 6, 2012 -- 10:13AM, Ahlyis wrote:

Wait. What?

Just what is it you think he's lying about? Are you saying you don't believe there is a third member? Or do you believe he is lying about something else?

I honestly cannot figure this out.

The third member. I submit that it's misinformation Razor and Rubik have planted to cover up the fact that Razor or Rubik ate BG themselves to keep the network from being compromised. Their behavior has clearly pointed towards avoiding discussion of the network altogether, even yesterday immediately after BG was ate and they claimed to not yet know the third. The third, obviously, is just a gimmick they came up with to end discussion about the network, as the more it's discussed and analyzed, the more apparent it would be that one of them ate BG. This is further apparent, as I was saying, by Razor being the point man as he is the experienced forked tongue and Rubik is a bit fast and loose with the info, as was shown day 1. Rubik is more than likely under orders by Razor not to get heavily involved in the discussion. Thus why his comments have been short and succient, more than likely rehearsed so that no excess information would slip through.

WHY do people lie in a mass claim? According to you, they'd be just fine if they simply told the truth.

People lie in mass claims because they are under some misconceived notion that they have to or should. In most cases one can not lie about the things they are/do in a game and remove the town's capability to catch them in a lie. FFP is living proof of this. In my entire career of mafia with him, his NLP has only been an issue once, when he replaced a player who had decided to unneccesarily lie before going inactive (and by this I mean that he fake claimed both when he didn't even need to claim and when he could have spun his role into a town angle if he bothered trying).

Dec 6, 2012 -- 12:42PM, razorborne wrote:

yeah good think I didn't catch any self-aligned players while everyone was ignoring me or anything. that would've been really embarassing for the town.

Yes because discouraging people from voting for the guy who actually turned out to be scum to vote for the guy whom you have no evidence was even a threat to the town was a super big boon to the town.

yeah this statement is not backed up by facts. in the day between when the day started and when you first brought up neighbors, I posted twice.

And once of that twice was because Fred directly called you out. Which means you've had a grand total of one post today that somebody wasn't directing you to speak on.

yeah you're right let me just go have the conversation we had yesterday when they first joined the network oh wait I already had that conversation.

Considering two scum and a self died between yesterday and now, I'd say it's worth a redressing if said person actually existed.

also, you're just being needlessly and, I can only hope, purposefully obstinate at this point.

It's phrases like this that let me know you aren't actually reading the thread, just responding to the stuff that's directed at you.

if that's not your theory, then what exactly am I lying about? give me a single pro to claiming a third member when none exists. go on. I'll wait. remember, Rubik could call me out on lying at any time, so he's clearly in on it too. what do Rubik and I, together, as a unit, get from convincing you that a third person is talking to us outside the thread?

I go over this in the above to Ahl. Since you've already made it apparent that you aren't reading the thread for things not directly said to you, I'm saying this so you'll go read that.

okay. let's say that's the case. let's say me and Rubik made up the third member because one of us ate badguy. who knows? maybe that's true. let's say it is. what does that tell you? what do you learn in this potential world where there's no third member and we didn't want to know?

also, what do we gain? why would we construct this lie? what's the upside?

 

So, I'm still here and I've been mostly following this converation, but with not a whole lot to add in combination with finals week keeping me busy.

Personally I'm leaning towards JD trying to make a last-ditch effort to pull out this game, or at least extend it another day or two. As opposed to him really being town trying to point fingers.

As far as the neighbor thing: I actually had a thought basically exactly along the same lines Razor, that you were lying about the third member to garner reactions and the like. And while lying is generally anti-town, I didn't see it as an anti-town lie then, nor now. Since you insist it isn't a lie though, I guess that was an incorrect prediction, and moving on and lynching JD should probably be a thing.

Uh, what else did I miss that I needed to comment on? This game has been kinda uninspiring for me sorry .

Oh, and so I don't forget about this game and go into torpor:

Vote: JD

Sorry JD, I think its very possible that you are town and this is just an easy lynch for the remaining scum to jump on, my gut tells me otherwise, and bandwagoning is kinda my thing this game.

Dec 6, 2012 -- 7:52PM, razorborne wrote:

also, what do we gain? why would we construct this lie? what's the upside?

Well, IF it were true, then by lying you hide from the Mafia the fact that one of you has extra power from having ate BG.

But then again, that sounds like a Townie thing to do if it were true, so I'm still not sure what Town benefit JD thinks to find by trying to force that info out of you.

@razor, do you mean besides the obvious people not suspecting you'd be twice the role you are at base? There's always the illusion of a greater town consensus then there actually is. Take this discussion for example. You are throwing around three peoples opinions without two of them having to say a word. Or maybe the fact that it'd send anybody trying to target the third on a wild goose chase. You and I both know you are smart enough to see the benefits of such of a move. Your feigning ignorance only clenchs this for me.

@Fred, no worries. I am voting for myself after all, so I can't really hold it against you. :P

As for what I'm doing, you had the nail on the head with the uninspiring thing. Jay is bored with this game (not to say FFP designed a boring game, I think this game had the potential to be another slobber knocked ala Mt_Gunn's star wars game), and thanks to the voting rule, most of the work is already done for us. Town is in a position where it can afford to lose two or three members with virtually no harm. So Jay is having fun and poking he bear. He doesn't care if he's lynched because it 1) reduces the hiding space for the last scum and 2) let's him out. In the mean time, all the waves I stir up can be looked at later in the game.

Dec 7, 2012 -- 11:47AM, JayDreven wrote:

@razor, do you mean besides the obvious people not suspecting you'd be twice the role you are at base?

I thought that wasn't a good enough reason to hide the neighbor's identity, so why is it a good enough one to make one up?

Dec 7, 2012 -- 11:47AM, JayDreven wrote:

There's always the illusion of a greater town consensus then there actually is. Take this discussion for example. You are throwing around three peoples opinions without two of them having to say a word.

neither I nor Freddeh has ever attempted to speak for Neighbor C in any capacity that does not directly involve the network. so your argument here is that I made them up so that I could convince you I made them up? I truly am a criminal mastermind. also I can't present a "town consensus" without first convincing you that neighbor C is town, which, as I recall, is a thing you were doing, not me. also neighbor C is also capable of posting in this thread, which means on any issue not directly involving the network, I they can express their opinions freely anyway without compromising themselves, so unless you somehow decide that their opinion should count twice, me saying "me and neighbor C agree that X is true" does nothing but narrow down the potential pool of neighbor Cs to the people who said that X was true.

Dec 7, 2012 -- 11:47AM, JayDreven wrote:

Or maybe the fact that it'd send anybody trying to target the third on a wild goose chase. You and I both know you are smart enough to see the benefits of such of a move. Your feigning ignorance only clenchs this for me.

if there's so many town benefits to this hypothetical lie, why are you trying to force it out of me?

Dec 7, 2012 -- 12:18PM, razorborne wrote:

neither I nor Freddeh has ever attempted to speak for Neighbor C in any capacity that does not directly involve the network.

EBWOP: "I nor Rubik". sorry, was thinking about Freddeh's recent post and my brain grabbed the wrong name.

 

Vote: JD

Well I voting him because I have to vote since I dont find him particularly suspicious, only someone that has an opinion that is different from the rest of the town which is why people are voting him.

official votecount

JD (8): everyone

unanimously it is decided that JD has to be a minion of the Antediluvians. helpless against the full onslaught of a unified group of vampires, JD quickly finds himself in the catatonic state of torpor.

It is now Free Night (Night) 3. Please state your night actions in your QTs. Night will last for 72 hours or until everyone has sent in his action, whatever occurs first. No more talking.

I don't have all the actions in right now, but one important outcame cannot be influenced anymore. JD gets diablerized, revealing him as
JD, brujah, Antediluvian-aligned.
town wins (meaning Sabbat, Camarilla and Independant)
full flavour post, roles, targets and stuff later today

independent was town? that's misleading.

anyway JD, why didn't you drop it? I was gonna move on, look for other suspects, but you kept dragging all the attention back to you. yeah, it sucks that both your partners died from inactivity, but why just give up like that?

 

in defense, it IS awfully demoralizing having both of your scummates die to inactivity...

Dec 9, 2012 -- 9:26AM, Freddeh wrote:

in defense, it IS awfully demoralizing having both of your scummates die to inactivity...

oh absolutely. as you'll notice once FFP posts the QT, me and Azuro (the elusive Neighbor C) bemoan the fact that such a potentially interesting game ran at a time in Px2's history where it's basically dead.

 

This was probably my favorite game I've played on here from a design perspective, but it felt like a lot of that was wasted.

Dec 9, 2012 -- 8:17AM, razorborne wrote:

independent was town? that's misleading.

 

In the voting-thread I already announced that this game would expand upon the idea of several town-factions from the first vampire game (where the Independant-aligned characters were town, too). basically, alignment didn't mean anything. Camarilla would be Camarilla, Independant would be Independant, Sabbat would be Sabbat because they hail from clans that belong to that sect. (Gangrel are independant, Toreador are Camarilla,...)
originally, I thought about deciding at random which three people would be the mafia-team but then I went to hand-pick-mode to ensure that they have a wide spread of abilities.
the only alignment that mattered was Antediluvian-aligned and that could be attached to anyone. funnily all of them ended up as Camarilla originally when I assigned them.

@razor, I wasn't playing a con when I said I was bored and entertaining myself. I knew my actions were a risk when I did them, bit I assessed what it would take for me to win and that would have been a very slow almost inactive front on my part. I would have died of boredom before this game ended. Since the rest of my faction was offer due to inactivity on their parts, I saw my choosing to play the game in an entertaining fashion as ultimately hurting nobody but myself. As for that, enjoying the game > a w in the win column.

Nice to know my gut isn't completely off though. Jay.

Who ate Febbs btw? My nom failed.

Rubik did.

Azuro_Arcanis steps forward and announces: "Behold. Last Night, I ridd this world of the third Harbinger of Gehenna. The machinations of the Antediluvians are halted. For the time being, the world is safe again." for indeed, he has ousted JD, Brujah, Antediluvian-aligned. For his efforts in hunting down those who seek to herald the Apocalypse, Azuro is awarded with the title Archon. For now, the threat is over, but the Kindred are well advised to stay alert, because who knows what plans the Antediluvians might be working on even as we rejoice and celebrate.

Town wins

setup
Spoiler: Show

I liked the game expecially with Ahlyis and Freddeh coming after me last night.

As for the diablerize thing there should be a limit because if Azuro was Mafia then the only way to stop him would be to lynch him since he would be able to do what he want during the night. Basically if a Mafia could play well during the day he would become a powerhouse!

Meh I was at the point of randomly hunting for scum hoping to get lucky. I wasn't going to hurt you anyway, had dodge up as my strike XD.

I are be superman

RARRGHHH!!!!

Also, Razorborne and anyone with.advanced thaumateguery still had a chance to stop me.

That being said my first hit makes you bloodless, my second hit puts you into torpor. Unless you were one of the super neighbors.

Eh, given I ate nobody and you ate two and I could still almost go toe to toe with you in a fist fight, I'd say you're not that super. :P

I'd say that was my biggest obstacle at the end of the game. I knew Rubik had eaten Febb when he said he was afraid of aggrivated damage. I had intended to bum rush the second night until Febb didn't get his vote in and went to torpor, then the priority became getting a hold of his bow for the aggro damage. But as I said at the beginning of the game I was not built for that, so I knew it was a long shot anyways. From that point bum rushing put me at the disadvantage of facing aggro damage from at least two sources, since I knew about Febb's and assumed there was at least one town counter balance out there. Also I was disadvantaged by at least three town members who had eaten at least one person a peice, with the possiblity that one had eaten two (which while I kept throwing out the notion that Razor had eaten him, I suspected Rubik had also eaten BG in addition to Febb, which is why he was only fearing aggro damage), which means half the town I probably couldn't beat down anyways. Then I had to contend with the fact that anybody I could put into torpor would either be rezzed, or gobbled, making each subsequent kill that much more unlikely to succeed. So the best option would be to continue to not bum rush to avoid harm to myself. During the day I'd have to adopt a very subtle wagon stance to avoid backlash, but at some point the network would have to be broken up to avoid them creating a truce to mexican stand off with each other and simply vote everybody else out of existence through sheer numbers bandwagoning. So rather than play a very boring game that I would probably lose anyways, I decided I'd go down swinging for the stands and enjoy the ride.

@ JD: Yes, with the bum rush and the flack it would have been quite the fight.

Honestly if TU and Febb had remained invested you guys good have started inflicting some serious harm. Febb could just bum rush and bow somebody and unless the happened to have a DR ability/item  they would be down, meanwhile with you bum rush and TU mindwiping or also bum rushing you guys could either drop someone or at least put them into frenzy with no clue how they got there.

Dec 9, 2012 -- 3:41PM, azuro_arcanis wrote:

I are be superman RARRGHHH!!!! Also, Razorborne and anyone with.advanced thaumateguery still had a chance to stop me. That being said my first hit makes you bloodless, my second hit puts you into torpor. Unless you were one of the super neighbors.

I had double dodge, I think I was fine XD.

I like how the Network diablerized everyone.

yeah, that makes sense. really sucks to have to modkill two thirds of the scum team. Px2 is basically dead. I'll keep playing the PCs in an attempt to drag it back to life, but at the point where we not only can't fill a 16-person game, but have to have a quarter of the player base modkilled for inactivity, I don't see this turning around any time soon.

 

I still blame the Wizards forum change.

Dec 10, 2012 -- 4:19PM, Freddeh wrote:

I still blame the Wizards forum change.

This.

I poked around the old PbP forums and they all seem to be dead. Yeah, fully hold that against wizards.

Dec 11, 2012 -- 5:07AM, azuro_arcanis wrote:

I poked around the old PbP forums and they all seem to be dead. Yeah, fully hold that against wizards.

Actually I joined Px2 after the forum change, so new people still come here but we really need publicity since I came here after checking the New Mirrodin Promo Mafia Game.

Also it's Gehenna in your signature nor Gehanna and congrats on being Superman.

So no one had any combat at all the whole game?

Was hoping to blow a hole in someone with a +2 gun.