I don't have time to comment on much right now, will in the morning, but I do want thank someone for something nice they did for me last night. I don't want them to claim, I'm just saying thanks.
Any chance you're going to tell us what you're talking about?
I, Niklor, in the event of a situation where I am placed at L-1, in other words 1 vote away from being lynched, will bring the hammer vote down upon myself unless it is a known Lylo situation by either announcement or general consensus. Note, if the general consensus is that it's Lylo on days when it clearly isn't, I will ignore them. Please respect the self-hammer by not hammering Niklor in non-Lylo scenarios.
I don't think there's much to take out of Parsath's death, other than what Venger already posted. I kinda doubt it was his suspicion of Pere that got him killed, that would be a bit obvious, methinks. The one thing I do want to bring up though is the fact that he chose Venger to contact. It was definitely a safe choice for him, as Venger was the most active player and hadn't done much that was suspicious(not much, but some). I don't know what we can take out of that, other than Parsath though Venger town.
I see why it's more useful to try to network people you think are town than scum, but I don't see it as invaluable to try and network the other way around. There is potential to trick scum into believing you think them as town, for one thing. The fact Parsath networked Venger doesn't necessarily mean Parsath though Venger was town.
I, Niklor, in the event of a situation where I am placed at L-1, in other words 1 vote away from being lynched, will bring the hammer vote down upon myself unless it is a known Lylo situation by either announcement or general consensus. Note, if the general consensus is that it's Lylo on days when it clearly isn't, I will ignore them. Please respect the self-hammer by not hammering Niklor in non-Lylo scenarios.
Interestingly, my main qualm about voting Tevish is the fact that he was also on the Wahooney lynch. With Parsath dying, it makes me awfully curious at whether the rest of the people on the wagon are town as well...I'm probably just looking too far into it though :\. Hell, they could be going the opposite way and both TD AND Tevish are scum.
Your statement " it makes me awfully curious at whether the rest of the people on the wagon are town" seems out of place, since they remaining people on the wagon are YOU, Tevish, and TDarien.
Why would scum TDarien jump onto a player about to flip town when he didn't have to? I'll have to take a look at the end-of-the-day vote progression, but if Tdarien was scum, he could have stayed off of the town wagon and Wahooey would still have died, and he wouldn't have been associated with it.
I'm feeling like you know this, but are trying to paint them as scummy and hope that we'll overlook your vote on Wahooey when you can't even do it. You kind of went too far trying to cast doubt on both, since if Tevish were scum with TDarien, then Tevish alone could have caused Wahooey to be lynched instead of Tdarien needing to join. Also, scum-Tevish could have avoided the Wahooey wagon all together and just let scumTDarien survival vote, which would bring less suspcion than a needless 4th vote on Wahooey.
Vote: Freddeh
Of course, given TDarien has no logical reason to jump on someone already being lynched as scum, what is the risk for him in doing so? In fact, what are the possible rewards. You seem to be indicating you personally believe it's more likely that someone in that position would be town. Could TDarien be trying to grab a very thin pair of town pants?
The fact that Freddeh shows interest in examing those remaining on the wagon makes sense. As town, he honestly wonders if it was an all town lynch on another townie near deadline. As scum, he wants to deceive town into believing that. Either way, I don't see it as much of a point against him. More like a sudden leap to a point you would like to see.
I, Niklor, in the event of a situation where I am placed at L-1, in other words 1 vote away from being lynched, will bring the hammer vote down upon myself unless it is a known Lylo situation by either announcement or general consensus. Note, if the general consensus is that it's Lylo on days when it clearly isn't, I will ignore them. Please respect the self-hammer by not hammering Niklor in non-Lylo scenarios.
Day start with no information to go on = lackluster day. Lurking in such an event is more likely the result of boredom over the lack of discussion topics and not a masterminded plan to stay out of the lime light that never existed in the first place. With this in mind, I'm giving nobody scum points for talking less than they should have, except Venger. Venger totally should have been posting more. This is a joke, just in case it's lost on you, young reader.
Which brings me to Wahooney...whahoney...Mahoney? All I can think of is Police Academy references now. Anyways, the only thing that really struck me as true and slightly suspicious on him was the claim that he was reactionary. Which to a degree, is to be expected if you aren't really drawn into the game at the moment and just responding whenever your name happens to come up. To call it suspicious enough to warrant a lynch, though, is maybe a stretch. One could argue there was nothing better to go on, but then that brings about the point that if that's the smoking gun of the day, what are you really jumping on him for since discussion is clearly lacking all around.
Methinks that Pere was just as easily suspectable for pushing others to post their top three scum guesses, for reasons previously stated, but even that is stretching to a point I wouldn't be comfortable with laying a vote for. Instead I'd probably run counter vote on Venger (this time it wouldn't be a joke) for recognizing the potential for a trap that could be potentially hazardous to the town and not springing it early before it has a chance to be potentially hazardous to the town, or SJT for blindly answering Pere's call for scum guess list and then coming back later and saying he has issue with them and using that as a basis for a vote on Pere. Overall, though, I won't give those two much thought for the moment, as I may be misunderstanding Venger and SJT did provide a link to a game that involved a more detailed explanation to his stand point, indicating that he most likely was trying to get some quick content out shortly after replacing in.
As for murder death kill analysis, I have none. The only thing you can do at this point is try to outguess motives. That would not be productive. Instead I'll focus on actions post death. What sticks in mind most is Fred's attempt to pin Venger with a scum tell for his "...well, crap." in response to the death announcement. This isn't a case of "Oh damn, they killed the doc." There was claimed personal connection in the night. That's a game changer. The fact that he does nothing but give this one line leads me to believe he knows it too. What happens next I'm perplexed by. He votes Tevish for making a town/scum list. Yet Pere was his biggest town read of the day before despite pushing for everybody to make a scum list. To me this is a blantant OMGUS vote if I ever saw one, especially notable by his glaring exception to being placed on Tevish's probable scum list.
Eh, that's good enough for now. Imma go snag 4 hours sleep before I have to ship off to work.
Urk.
Worst. Post. Ever.
Scummier even than Freddeh's fake analysis.
Unvote. Vote: JayDreven
You may have elaborated later on, but why is it scummy?
Also, if Freddeh has a fake analysis, wouldn't that be fairly impossible to dismiss?
I, Niklor, in the event of a situation where I am placed at L-1, in other words 1 vote away from being lynched, will bring the hammer vote down upon myself unless it is a known Lylo situation by either announcement or general consensus. Note, if the general consensus is that it's Lylo on days when it clearly isn't, I will ignore them. Please respect the self-hammer by not hammering Niklor in non-Lylo scenarios.
D) I do have to agree with Peregrine on TD, I'm going to go back and look, but if TD's vote is close enough to the deadline, I can't imagine him being scum in any capacity.
I, Niklor, in the event of a situation where I am placed at L-1, in other words 1 vote away from being lynched, will bring the hammer vote down upon myself unless it is a known Lylo situation by either announcement or general consensus. Note, if the general consensus is that it's Lylo on days when it clearly isn't, I will ignore them. Please respect the self-hammer by not hammering Niklor in non-Lylo scenarios.
Well, this isn't working so far. I'll be back later, when I possibly feel like reading more posts that don't seem to say much. Or maybe I'm not reading enough into everything. Either way, interest seems to be lacking atm.
I, Niklor, in the event of a situation where I am placed at L-1, in other words 1 vote away from being lynched, will bring the hammer vote down upon myself unless it is a known Lylo situation by either announcement or general consensus. Note, if the general consensus is that it's Lylo on days when it clearly isn't, I will ignore them. Please respect the self-hammer by not hammering Niklor in non-Lylo scenarios.
The revelation of his death or the revelation that both of you believed you were a good night kill?
The revelation of his alignment combined with the fact that he had to die for me to see how wrong I was. Up until Daystart, I was nearly certain that Parsath was scum with TDarien, and had even formulated a plan of attack in where I might trap TDarien and get Parsath to get himself lynched.
Content is nice. If you're opinion of Parsath is correct, it just means the nk makes all the more sense.
The way I'm looking at it is that NKing Parsath would have the benefit of getting rid of someone who's posting good content while not getting rid of someone who posts a lot, and therefore has more opportunity to screw up and get themselves lynched.
So either Tevish was prepared or was just able to make short summaries of the top of his head. And this is a point against him?
+1
CHECKPOINT tl;dr: In case anyone missed it, the "revelation" that hit me so hard at the start of the Day was Parsath's alignment; I was abysmally wrong, and it put things I thought were veiled threats, scumtells, etc. into a completely different light. It's also my opinion that Parsath as the NK was actually a pretty intelligent choice since it gets rid of someone who was posting good content without getting rid of someone who is likely to talk themselves into a noose (apropos, myself in half the games I play).
I see why it's more useful to try to network people you think are town than scum, but I don't see it as invaluable to try and network the other way around. There is potential to trick scum into believing you think them as town, for one thing. The fact Parsath networked Venger doesn't necessarily mean Parsath though Venger was town.
I had never considered this as a possibility, and is actually a very good point. For the moment, since even after going over our PMs again I can't really find solid evidence to pull me one way or the other, I'm going to assume that his words are acceptable at face value, especially in light of the fact that I was so wrong when I didn't do that before.
Of course, given TDarien has no logical reason to jump on someone already being lynched as scum, what is the risk for him in doing so? In fact, what are the possible rewards. You seem to be indicating you personally believe it's more likely that someone in that position would be town. Could TDarien be trying to grab a very thin pair of town pants?
TD did explain that his motivations regarding his late vote, and how he mistakenly thought it was necessary for his survival.
After all, it'd be embarrasing for him if he was the first scum to be lynched on Day 1 since Shadowfyre or whatever his name was.
Well, this isn't working so far. I'll be back later, when I possibly feel like reading more posts that don't seem to say much. Or maybe I'm not reading enough into everything. Either way, interest seems to be lacking atm.
But, but, but! I was at work!
tl;dr2: I hadn't considered that Parsath may have not thought me to be town, but it's certainly worth considering that he was trying to trap scum in contacting me; for now, I choose to take his words at face value. Regarding TDarien's motives for his late vote, I believe he explained that already (#218).
Day2 just started, and we have the flips of 2 players. If you are trying to discuss day1, how can you not say there is infromation to go on? Could there be more? Yes. Should there be more? Yes. Complaining that there wasn't any is not helpful, and instead of doing any analysis of anything discussed, you just give yourself a free pass from having to do so. You then say lurking is understandable since there was so little to talk about. With lurking being the #1 scum tactic, your approval of it rings warning bells.
I didn't say there was no information to go on. That entire chunk was talking about activity levels of Day 1 and it's correlation to scumminess. Nothing else. Now given that we are probably looking at a quarter of the game being scum and 2/3 of the game was barely active to completely inactive, the activity levels of Day 1 clearly aren't a scum tell as more players had activity problems than could possibly be scum. That day is a wash on this point. Now that we are further into the game with more solid information to go on, that number should drastically reduce, leaving a more suspicion appropriate level of lack of activity.
Here I'm not sure if you are analyzing Wahooey's play, or the reaction to Wahooey's play. If you are analyzing Wahooey's play, what's the point since he was lynched and flipped town.
If you are trying to analyze the reactions or votes to Wahooey's play, you have failed. You mentioned none of the votes on him, the voters of him, the discussion of the votes on him, or even the reasons why people did not vote him. If it's a general "tsk tsk why Wahooey?" thing, then that's not helpful without inlcuding at least the discussion points above.
What's the point in analyzing the voting record if you aren't going to analyze what led to that outcome in the first place? Just taking votes out of context is frankly suspicious. Looking at reasons and then going back to try and justify them is also suspicious. The only way to truly analyze a lynch is to first exam the facts with fresh eyes and then examine the people and reasons they gave. What I have given you is an overview of the final outcome. The only reason I would need to go into specifics is if I were building a case on one of the voters based on this line of discourse. At this juncture I am not so the details are irrelevant. But here's a breakdown, Fred lurker voted. Nik voted for Wahoo for doing exactly the same thing Nik did in the post he voted for Wahoo in with the exception of taking a stance on Wahoo. Parsath voted for Wahoo for being reactionary and inactive. And Tevish voted for Wahoo in reaction to a quick swing of votes (best way to put this one, methinks. TD's preservation vote has been excluded for obvious reasons. Fred and Parsath's votes are simply facts. Not scum tells. Nik's is hypocritical at best. I'd call Tevish's a last minute gamble. Overall the only two votes to take particular note of are Tevish's and Nik's. Tevish was ultimately the hammer on Wahoo, even if TD was the official. But it's still too early to do anything with either vote.
So here, you would vote Venger for "recognizing the potential for a trap that could be potentially hazardous to the town". What does that even mean? How does one recognize the potential for a trap? How would this potential trap be potentially hazardous to the town? And in English, how could a trap to catch scum be bad for town? And Venger should have "sprung it early"? How would he do that to a potential trap? Why would he do that if it's a potential trap to catch scum? If the potential trap is potentially hazardous to town, why should Venger spring it? Is it hazardous to him? If so, is it hazardous to him because it's a scum trap or because it's a potentially hazardous-to-town trap? And why could no other player spring it or not spring it and thus earn your vote? So, yeah, it sounds like you are making stuff up, hoping to baffle us with bullsh*t. SJT responded to your comment on him repsonding to it, but it doesn't really matter. Depsite the entire paragraph, your final sentence leaves room for you to ignore or follow up on everything in the paragraph at a later date. Making the entire thing either crap or fluff.
You forgot doing nothing. Here's an analogy. The trap is a live gernade. You throw it in the middle of town. Now when it explodes it could kill scum, but since it's sitting in the middle of the town it's not guaranteed to kill scum, nor is it aimed exclusively at scum. Now Venger is a random passerby that looks down and goes, "Hmm...a live gernade." He has two options, throw the gernade somewhere that it won't kill anybody (spring the trap early) or ignore it and see what happens (do nothing). Throwing the gernade destroys any chance of catching scum, but also destroys the much more likely outcome of losing town to the gernade that shouldn't have been thrown in the first place.IMO, this is the correct action for town. From what I have been discussing with Venger it seems he was setting up a trauma kit so that he could immediately treat the wounded if need be. Frankly I don't think it would have worked had it been an actual trap. SJT did bust any potential trap down the line anyway.
I think you are trying to call out Fred for his Tevish vote, saying that when I did it is was townish to Freddeh, and Tevish doing it was scummish to Freddeh, and saying it was OMGUS instead. Is that right?
That seems fairly accurate. What Tevish did is not unprecedented. At end of day there were a multitude of thoughts broken down by players going around and you had been calling for scum lists. These are the things Tevish did in his post. Fred had issue with none of these at the end of Day 1. Yet early Day 2 he has enough issue to warrant a vote. Considering that in conjunction with the points I've elaborated on how Fred keeps bringing things back around to himself leads me to believe his vote is OMGUS.
@JD: If you count the '2 lurkers' as including JD, then its actually pretty even. I say TD was his primary target because HE SAID IT IN HIS POST. Finally, Tevish completely ignored my vote and case, which, to me, lends it the utmost credibility. So yeah, I'm pretty much set on Tevish being scum here.
What he said in his post is irrelevant to how you decided to react to it. OMGUS is a direct reaction to somebody pointing a finger at you. Was the finger pointed? Yes. Did you react in a manner that placed extra emphasis on yourself and return with a vote for the finger pointer? Yes. The necessary components are there for an OMGUS. Given how you've chosen to react, I see it as such. Just because Tevish said his finger is pointing harder at TD doesn't mean you are incapable of OMGUS voting him.
@ JD Man, I don't know if it's just me, but I find your wall of text VERY hard to read. That said, I'm with you on a lot of points, (assuming I'm reading them correctly)
It's not just you.
You're argument about Mahooney being a poor lynch. Perhaps your correct, but there is something to be said about lynching someone for being anti-town as opposed to scummy. While Mahooney might not have been scummy, per se, an argument can be made that he wasn't very helpful to the town. That's why I thought he was a decent lynch, even though I mainly voted him out of self-preservation, which I know see was unecesary, as I had the vote numbers incorrect in my head at that point.
Ha, I got you calling him Mahooney now. :D An argument can be made that he wasn't active for a good portion of the day. Nothing else. Wahoo stated two RL days into the game nobody had done anything scummy enough for him to recognize it yet and weighed in on all questions asked of him at the time. Then he went inactive until after he had started acquiring votes. At no point did he act in an manner that was destructive to the town, so one cannot state that he was being anti town. One can say he wasn't as helpful as he could have been, but one could say that about many of the players Day 1, so you'd essentially be saying a random lynch out of the non active player pool is a good lynch. Which its not.
I don't have time to comment on much right now, will in the morning, but I do want thank someone for something nice they did for me last night. I don't want them to claim, I'm just saying thanks.
Any chance you're going to tell us what you're talking about?
I was just thinking, wow, what a gift from Niklor, all those good content filled catch-up posts, then I saw this and I was sad because this is fishing and it makes me question the read I was developing on you.
ATTENTION WIZARDS OF THE COAST: You have full rights to use any of my intellectual property found on these boards (I'm not going to use it and it'd be a shame to waste it). -Dr. Stinkyjoeterry, Ph.D.
Day start with no information to go on = lackluster day. Lurking in such an event is more likely the result of boredom over the lack of discussion topics and not a masterminded plan to stay out of the lime light that never existed in the first place. With this in mind, I'm giving nobody scum points for talking less than they should have, except Venger. Venger totally should have been posting more. This is a joke, just in case it's lost on you, young reader.
1. I wouldn't call it boredom precisely. I would say that the lack of discussion topics means people aren't interested in the game or taking the time to post in it. You might say that is boredom, but since if I'm not interested in a game I will just leave the page and go on to something else not related to it, I wouldn't really call it such.
Also, I should have been posting more, but I agree it's not scummy if I or others weren't interested in doing so.
Which brings me to Wahooney...whahoney...Mahoney? All I can think of is Police Academy references now. Anyways, the only thing that really struck me as true and slightly suspicious on him was the claim that he was reactionary. Which to a degree, is to be expected if you aren't really drawn into the game at the moment and just responding whenever your name happens to come up. To call it suspicious enough to warrant a lynch, though, is maybe a stretch. One could argue there was nothing better to go on, but then that brings about the point that if that's the smoking gun of the day, what are you really jumping on him for since discussion is clearly lacking all around.
2. It's far easier to just simply react than to appear to be acting.
Methinks that Pere was just as easily suspectable for pushing others to post their top three scum guesses, for reasons previously stated, but even that is stretching to a point I wouldn't be comfortable with laying a vote for. Instead I'd probably run counter vote on Venger (this time it wouldn't be a joke) for recognizing the potential for a trap that could be potentially hazardous to the town and not springing it early before it has a chance to be potentially hazardous to the town, or SJT for blindly answering Pere's call for scum guess list and then coming back later and saying he has issue with them and using that as a basis for a vote on Pere. Overall, though, I won't give those two much thought for the moment, as I may be misunderstanding Venger and SJT did provide a link to a game that involved a more detailed explanation to his stand point, indicating that he most likely was trying to get some quick content out shortly after replacing in.
3. When you think you see a trap, you don't necessarily disarm it. You wait and see if anyone activates it, verifying it was indeed a trap.
I still find SJT more suspicious in regards to Pere's suggestion of posting the top three, even if he does happen to believe what he is saying. Scum don't necessarily have to lie, after all.
1. This comment by Nik had me thinking. To me, that same post by JD, that Nik is referring to, looks a whole lot like JD trying to justify lurking because the game is boring? This is just bad logic. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but when a game is boring, I like to do things to liven it up... when I'm town.
2. I think this is a good point, but maybe not entirely clear. I think (correct me if I'm wrong), Nikor is implying that it is easier to respond only when spoken to/about than it is to actually go out and actively scumhunt. So it sounds like in different ways Niklor and JD are both trying to justify the Wahooney lynch. I'm going to need to look into this possibility.
3. This depends on the trap. Most of the time traps aren't that cut and dry and there isn't just one accepted way of dealing with them. Trust me, I know.
I'd like to have this debate with you.
Why is it scummy to be against the providing of a universal T/S list or even something as little as top three scum list?
As I've said before I think it provides a lot of data for scum to analyze and the evidence supports me. I'm fine with a few people giving them, but the issue is with requesting it from everyone.
ATTENTION WIZARDS OF THE COAST: You have full rights to use any of my intellectual property found on these boards (I'm not going to use it and it'd be a shame to waste it). -Dr. Stinkyjoeterry, Ph.D.
