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Locked: Community Cup 100-card Singleton Unified Standard Strategy Thread - No WotC Team Members!
4 years ago  ::  Oct 19, 2009 - 8:23PM #61
Zimbardo
Date Joined: Aug 26, 2005
Posts: 263

Tarmotog asked about Hypergenesis in the myMTGO thread.  It seems bad (autoloss to a counter or wrath) but it only needs 2 cards from other decks - Bloodbraid Elf and Bituminous Blast.  It can use all kinds of janky dual lands for its 5 color mana base.  I put a hastily concocted list in the spreadsheet in case anybody wants to test Hypergenesis against the aggro decks.  If it beats them often enough, then maybe it's worth thinking about.


ChrisKool and I were talking about this briefly, and he figures WW is the worst of the 8 decks.  If we cannibalized that deck, we'd probably add white to the Elves deck for Armageddons, which would entail moving GW duals from RG.  A few other notable cards would become available too, like Exalted Angel and Sword of Fire and Ice.  We wouldn't gain a ton of cards, but Elves (probably one of the two or three weakest decks) would get a nice boost.


I know how bad Hypergenesis is against counters and wraths, but I don't really know how good it is against other decks.  ???

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 20, 2009 - 3:49AM #62
rimaur
Date Joined: Mar 31, 2005
Posts: 39

I've an idea...


If you think ww is not strong enough (and to be fair I'm with ChrisKool on this), how about considering mono-black?


KeefOr came 7th in a PE on 5th July 09 with a mono-black control deck. It has just 14 cards overlapping in the main with all the current decks (assuming we're replacing WW).


Those cards are:

  • Urborg (currently in Crosis)
  • Hypnotic Specter (currently in Crosis)
  • Solemn Simulacrum (currently in Crosis)
  • Chainer's Edict (currently in Crosis)
  • Damnation (currently in Crosis)
  • Diabolic Edict (currently in Crosis)
  • Duress (currently in Crosis)
  • Liliana Vess (currently in Rock)
  • Profane Command (currently in Rock)
  • Skeletal Scrying (currently in Rock)
  • Smother (currently in Rock)
  • Tainted Pact (currently in Rock)
  • Terror (currently in Rock)
  • Thoughtseize (currently in Crosis)

That's 7 in Crosis and 6 in Rock. I'm not sure how dependent either of these decks are on these cards but I wouldn't have thought they were back breaking to replace in either these or the mono-B deck (damnation/profane command aside). There's a further 5 overlap in the sideboard (deathmark, perish, phyrexian furnace, shriekmaw, tormod's crypt) but again they're almost certainly not essential to the deck.


This seems a good place to start for another deck. And it has pedigree, which is more than can be said for the WW which hasn't had a top 8 in a year. The deck doesn't even use necropotence!! And the deck was created before M10 and Zendikar both of which include strong new black cards.


Here's the link to the deck list:


www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/events.as...


This is just an idea though...

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 20, 2009 - 4:47AM #63
Zimbardo
Date Joined: Aug 26, 2005
Posts: 263

Ectoplasmoid: Feel free to check out the decklists that have already been put together, as they incorporate several of the ideas you listed.


Rimaur: Your list shows how monoblack interferes with the other black decks.  Even when you give it all the best cards possible and give it a splash color, it still ends up being an inconsistent deck.  For a while I tried a tuned version that so many trolls made, and it was still an inconsistent deck despite being well designed and having some good blue cards added to it.   Between WW and a nerfed MBC, I think WW would be less of a weak deck and would interfere less with the other decks.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 20, 2009 - 12:52PM #64
platipus10
Date Joined: Nov 30, 2005
Posts: 314

Actually WW has had several T8's this year, but they were all in the spring.  Since then I have really not even seen it played in PEs, so it's not like it has been a deck trying to get there that keeps failing.  It seems people just stopped playing it.  Maybe because it is not good maybe because people don't like it, I have no idea.


However, MBC is a deck I see people play far more often and for all of the attempts it has 1x 7th place finish which is not all the impressive to me.  The deck is just very unreliable and has a hard time dealing with the threats that the format throws as it.  I definitely don't think WW is the strongest deck either, but it is better than MBC in my opinion.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 20, 2009 - 12:54PM #65
platipus10
Date Joined: Nov 30, 2005
Posts: 314

I had considered Hypergenesis when I was initially brainstorming deck ideas, but dismissed it because it seemed to need to be a 5 color deck.  It hadn't thought about just giving it all the crappy lands and see if it can still make the cut.  It's an idea potentially worth testing.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 20, 2009 - 4:05PM #66
rimaur
Date Joined: Mar 31, 2005
Posts: 39

Hey no probs. My bad. I was looking through the PE results and had only got back as far as april. I hadn't seen a single WW deck. Just my luck the next three PE's before that all had WW in them Anyway, I noticed MBC, thought that the overlap with the other decks wasn't large (at least in my ill informed opinion) and when Zimbardo suggested he was interested in looking at other options to WW I though I'd suggest MBC again. Of course I greatly respect your's and zimbardo's opinion and if you both say it isn't good enough then it isn't good enough.


You know I also noticed that WW had disappeared from the current PEs. I wondered whether that has to do with the increase in GU base decks? Normal 60 card WW traditionally had problems with G and U. Before April the top 8's were littered with RG aggro decks. I figured that might have something to do with it.


Anyway, any chance you could give an idea what it is about the WW deck that is troubling you both? Maybe I can look at finding a solution to it that doesn't involve changing the decks? You know just in case the Hypergenesis idea doesn't pan out and you can't think of an alternative.


rimaur.

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 20, 2009 - 7:30PM #67
Zimbardo
Date Joined: Aug 26, 2005
Posts: 263

I'd recommend listening more closely to analysis from platipus than from me, as he has a lot of experience with singleton formats, while I am fairly new. 


Anyway, I think WW's issue is that it can't do enough after its initial creature rush.  Red has Burn and Elves can generate overpowering synergy, for example, but WW doesn't have as much of a  weapon if the game lasts a while and the opponent gets defenses established.  It does have Elspeth and probably a couple other things here and there.  But I wouldn't worry too much about trying to cure this issue - as far as I know, that's the nature of WW, because you don't want to slow it down by adding too much bigger stuff for the late game. 


Feel free to message me in game. 

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 21, 2009 - 5:20AM #68
ChrisKool
Date Joined: May 4, 2008
Posts: 208

Random card- Sacred Mesa.  I saw someone mention this a while ago, is it in any decks?  Also, are we/you playing Lightning Greaves?


 


My thoughts on WW (and it's low power level):


The deck has to be very aggressive to win (losing any creatures, including mid-top curve guys like Baneslayer and Ranger of Eos hurt).  If you think WW should not be playing 4-5 drops, then I wish you luck winning with (essentially) only 2/2s for 2.


The opponent cannot effectively stop the creature onslaught (as WW has little 'reach'- it needs creatures to win).


WW needs man lands to increase its threat density.  My WW lists play a TON of man-lands.  It also would like fetch lands to thin out the deck.


WW's only advantages over RG are increased playable token generators, numerous ways to augment creature size and flyers.  RG has better creatures (p/t-to-mana ratio wise) and burn. UG has better utility and the ability to say no.  WW just has a low power level. Compare it to the RG, Goblin and Elves lists- can it reliably beat any of these?


WW's removal is already thin.  Losing PtE and/or StP put it way behind. It gets even worse when you think about multi-purpose white cards like enlightened tutor- that can fetch removal, artifact kill, winter orb, equipment- but it is better suited in combo or control.


WW has so many appealing creatures, that you will have a hard time figuring out what is actually the best configuration.  I once had a WW deck (with clamp) that was 15-2 in 4mans/2mans.  While I won many of my games with clamp, i could never get an optimal creature base.  First strike, protection from x, flying, high powers and utility are all available in large amounts for WW. Good luck tuning a good mix even if you have lots of experience with them.


If you still want to try WW, overload it with multipurpose support spells (like Otherworldy Journey, Oblivion Ring and Harm's Way) and play a full contigent of Anthem effects- ALL OF THEM.  I'd also play a lot of guys with First Strike so you can defend against 5/5s while a few flyers swoop in turn after turn.


Thoughts after WW:


I would look into hypergenesis with a few duals (perhaps rav block), a few basics and a TON of landcycler creatures to keep the land count as close to 30 as possible.  Also, I would play all of the TSP charge lands not being used up by other decks. I would focus on playing 5-7cc creatures that can be cast if the opponent can answer the initial hypergenesis.  Don't play too many CIPT lands.


Elves- since this deck will lose some power(mostly in the form of some low end and white cards), I would have a healthy selection of 4-6 drop all-star creatures.  Vigor, Deus of Calamity, and Creakwood Liege all performed well in mono green. 


 


odds are I won't check the thread for a while.  catch me in-game if you need/want anything.  cheers!

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4 years ago  ::  Oct 21, 2009 - 5:40AM #69
dangerlinto
  • Classically trained
Date Joined: Aug 31, 2004
Posts: 2,207

Oct 21, 2009 -- 5:20AM, ChrisKool wrote:

Random card- Sacred Mesa.



Seems like it would be much better in the UW deck along with standstill and WOG effects.

Classic Quarter
(www.classicquarter.com)
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4 years ago  ::  Oct 21, 2009 - 6:18AM #70
rimaur
Date Joined: Mar 31, 2005
Posts: 39

I used to use a single sacred mesa in my weissman WW back in the day. It's a pretty lousy early card but it was very useful late game.


I'll have a look at it.


Here are some other cards I'm going to try out:

  • Razor golem
  • Battle screech
  • Celestial Crusader
  • Stormfront pegasus
  • Cloudgoat Ranger
  • Mistral Charger
  • Divine Sacrement
  • Glorious Anthem
  • Conqueror's Pledge
  • Land Tax
  • Tithe
  • Gift of Estates
  • Devout lightcaster

 

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