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Optional PC death.

Hear me out.   


I know you are probably wondering what I'm smoking, but optional PC death is actually something that can greatly enhance a game. Simply allow the players to decide whether or not their characters are dead when the characters reach negative whatever, and you're there. Plus, as DM you get to think up some  crazily evil predicament for the PC to be in instead of dying. For one, players tend to get very attached to their characters. Mike's not going to be happy when Agran Tormblood, Vengeful Wind of the Harinas, Bloodae of War dies suddenly after 20 levels of an emotional bond to the character. Some of you might be screaming "We can't coddle the players!". Besides my strong feeling that this type of attitude dosen't belong in a cooperative game, one imporatnt thing to note is that taking away mandatory death does not take away the risk of failure. See Kerapalli's thread on Interesting failures. Failure at a goal is far better than death for story and gameplay purposes. If a player likes the risk of always being forced to die, they can simply decide that they will always die.

An idea from Kerapalli;

Rather than dying, they can RP some scar, injury, psychosis or grudge. Something that reminds the character of their defeat but doesn't necessarily toss them in the waste bucket. Since this is a fairly permanent ruling I wouldn't force it on any player, but I would offer and suggest it as a way to rationalize and narrate the abstraction of "negative hp + three failed death saves".

I advocate that players should have narrative control over their characters, particularly when it comes to negative consequences (this is one of the reasons why I dislike charm effects and other things that force player reaction). I don't think the death barrier is as insurmountable as some on the forum seem to think. After all, HP is an abstraction, as are most other combat mechanics.

Below 0 hp the character is "down", like a boxer who has just taken a haymaker on the chin. Depending on a number of other factors (saves, remaining surges, ally healing checks) the character might "get up off the mat" and back into the fight. Monsters targeting downed characters is generally poor practice (aside from unavoidable blast and aura effects) so characters normally have a fair chance at getting back into the thick of things. Of course, sometimes they don't.

I like the idea of giving the characters a "flee" option. They lose the encounter but survive, and get to choose one immediate negative consequence of their failure (abandoning their supplies, getting lost in the caves, etc). I'll hold a possible longer-term negative consequence in my pocket if I can make it interesting (the goblins guarding the cave managed to drive the party back, so they send warning to their warchief who sends out warg-riding scouts to hunt them down).

Oct 10, 2012 -- 9:59AM, Kerapalli wrote:

I like the idea of giving the characters a "flee" option. They lose the encounter but survive, and get to choose one immediate negative consequence of their failure (abandoning their supplies, getting lost in the caves, etc). I'll hold a possible longer-term negative consequence in my pocket if I can make it interesting (the goblins guarding the cave managed to drive the party back, so they send warning to their warchief who sends out warg-riding scouts to hunt them down).

Do you feel like players ever actually take the "flee" option? In my experience, they have to be told that it's their only option, and even then they dislike it. If it was agreed to upfront that "0 HP" or "death" for everyone in the party actually meant that the scene shifted to them on the run, perhaps at some other disadvantage, then I could see it working.

That was more along the lines of what I meant. If the group ends up with 0 hp for whatever reason (most often the "fun" of getting a series of dice results consistently outside of the standard deviation) then we can agree to narrate the result not as a TPK or capture but as a "fighting retreat" from the scene. 

In regards to individual PC "death", I wouldn't mind seeing something from the revised WoD system (which is about the only good thing I can bring myself to say about WoD's combat system). Rather than dying, they can RP some scar, injury, psychosis or grudge. Something that reminds the character of their defeat but doesn't necessarily toss them in the waste bucket. Since this is a fairly permanent ruling I wouldn't force it on any player, but I would offer and suggest it as a way to rationalize and narrate the abstraction of "negative hp + three failed death saves". 

Oct 10, 2012 -- 5:38PM, Kerapalli wrote:

In regards to individual PC "death", I wouldn't mind seeing something from the revised WoD system (which is about the only good thing I can bring myself to say about WoD's combat system). Rather than dying, they can RP some scar, injury, psychosis or grudge. Something that reminds the character of their defeat but doesn't necessarily toss them in the waste bucket. Since this is a fairly permanent ruling I wouldn't force it on any player, but I would offer and suggest it as a way to rationalize and narrate the abstraction of "negative hp + three failed death saves". 

I really like this idea, do you mind if I edit my OP to mention it?

Yeah of course. You certainly don't need to ask permission to use any of my ideas. I throw them out there (for good or for ill) for anyone to use (or ignore) as they wish.

Oct 10, 2012 -- 11:26AM, Centauri wrote:

Oct 10, 2012 -- 9:59AM, Kerapalli wrote:

I like the idea of giving the characters a "flee" option. They lose the encounter but survive, and get to choose one immediate negative consequence of their failure (abandoning their supplies, getting lost in the caves, etc). I'll hold a possible longer-term negative consequence in my pocket if I can make it interesting (the goblins guarding the cave managed to drive the party back, so they send warning to their warchief who sends out warg-riding scouts to hunt them down).

Do you feel like players ever actually take the "flee" option? In my experience, they have to be told that it's their only option, and even then they dislike it. If it was agreed to upfront that "0 HP" or "death" for everyone in the party actually meant that the scene shifted to them on the run, perhaps at some other disadvantage, then I could see it working.

Heh, I remember a SAGA game where the party of 4 PCs ran from 1 stormtrooper.

I mean, seriously, even the miniature of the stormie had the gun at his hip.

I'm waiting for the day I have a Total Party Kill. Should that happen, I'd like to throw the players into the nine hells and have them find a way out. A large number of the PC's in my group have very dodgy ethics, so it could be fitting. I remember a few greek heroes travelled to the underworld and returned, I like the idea.

I've also wondered what would happen if a PC was killed by a Liche and brought back to life as a slave. Could be interesting if the character has to find a way to release himself from a Liches control.

 I really like the idea of them being thrown into he Nine Hells. You could probably fuse those two together, maybe a lich under the command of Orcus is trying to gain influence and control in the Nine Hells and transforms one of the heroes.

As a DM, it's just not about life or death anymore for me. The monsters have goals and rarely does that involve killing the PCs. I thus prefer "taken out" as the option, whatever that means in context. In practice, this can often mean the character sits out a couple of sessions while the players brings in another PC he wants to try or some other story complication other than death. I find the players are more than happy to imagine this stuff on their own, too.

My 4e days are numbered (well, my "regular" 4e game days anyway) so I don't think anything close to a TPK is on the horizon. 

Dec 4, 2012 -- 5:53AM, CorranHornIsAwesome wrote:

 I really like the idea of them being thrown into he Nine Hells. You could probably fuse those two together, maybe a lich under the command of Orcus is trying to gain influence and control in the Nine Hells and transforms one of the heroes.

I thought Asmodeus would be more fitting for the nine hells. Transforming a hero into a demon could be fun if they are ethically twisted and if they die. All the more interesting to see if the player wants to change the characters fate.  

Dec 4, 2012 -- 9:11AM, iserith wrote:

As a DM, it's just not about life or death anymore for me. The monsters have goals and rarely does that involve killing the PCs. I thus prefer "taken out" as the option, whatever that means in context. In practice, this can often mean the character sits out a couple of sessions while the players brings in another PC he wants to try or some other story complication other than death. I find the players are more than happy to imagine this stuff on their own, too.

My 4e days are numbered (well, my "regular" 4e game days anyway) so I don't think anything close to a TPK is on the horizon. 

"Taken Out" is the term used in the FATE system, so I get what you mean. As for regular 4E games, I'm not sure I could stomach 4E as it was presented to me a few years ago. My original group stopped playing 4E, for many reasons. I gave 4E a shoot and hated it's complex combat encounters, so it's in need of adjustment. I only returned to 4E as a DM pilgrimage to find out if it was my DMing that was the problem I was unhappy with rpg gaming or the system. And the journey continues... 

Dec 4, 2012 -- 10:19PM, Prom wrote:

Dec 4, 2012 -- 5:53AM, CorranHornIsAwesome wrote:

 I really like the idea of them being thrown into he Nine Hells. You could probably fuse those two together, maybe a lich under the command of Orcus is trying to gain influence and control in the Nine Hells and transforms one of the heroes.

I thought Asmodeus would be more fitting for the nine hells. Transforming a hero into a demon could be fun if they are ethically twisted and if they die. All the more interesting to see if the player wants to change the characters fate.  

For gain influence I meant more along the lines of New Guy, but I like this a lot too.

Last night I ran a Dark Heresy (warhammer 40,000 rpg) adventure using the D&D 4E rules. It almost turned into a TPK, but in the end only one character died. I asked the player if he still wanted to continue playing his character and he did. So we had the PC hauled off to a hospital, brought back to life with a brain implant, drugs, defibrillation and losts of slight of hand. There is now a space marine in the group with a second hand bionic brain, that doesn't work that well, but keeps him alive. I can see this being losts of fun for me, and the player is already talking about roleplay memory loss for the character.

Not bad for an alternative to death.

I've seen some pretty inventive stuff when people have been "allowed" to choose when death sticks or not. Nice work!

Sounds like fun! Second hand replacement brains are always interesting haha!

Dec 26, 2012 -- 6:05AM, CorranHornIsAwesome wrote:

Sounds like fun! Second hand replacement brains are always interesting haha!

I sure hope so. I think the player will seek a better implant in the future, when the chance arises. But for now, who knows what will happen.