I should have titled it "Secret Mission" ... then the blurb could be:
"This is a mission so secret we can't tell you about it until after you've played it."
I should have titled it "Secret Mission" ... then the blurb could be: "This is a mission so secret we can't tell you about it until after you've played it."
I should have titled it "Secret Mission" ... then the blurb could be:
"This is a mission so secret we can't tell you about it until after you've played it."
More to do with time and having the adventure at hand while quickly scanning the boards from a mini laptop or hotel desk then it being secret (It is in the printed program of WF.) Feel free to post it yourself Dan
More to do with time and having the adventure at hand while quickly scanning the boards from a mini laptop or hotel desk then it being secret ;) (It is in the printed program of WF.) Feel free to post it yourself Dan ;)
In the first encounter, the DM was allowing the butler golem to cause PCs to attack each other without the use of an attack roll. I don't know if that was intent, sloppy wording, or bad design, but it definitely was un-fun. In the second encounter, even at AL 10, the deceivers' save-or-unconscious power was overpowered. The players at the table felt like turning the power into a 2-stage power (e.g., attack causes immobilized (save ends); first failed save: unconscious (save ends)).
overall, I really like the basic concept, and even liked that my spellscarred character didn't get hosed for doing something in Eltugard. With a little polish, this'll be a nice addition to what's available.
The story award that gives an additional found item slot is cool, and I wish I got to play enough to get use out of it!
I don't have the official blurb, although. I played it yesterday AM. I have the following observations:Spoiler:
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In the first encounter, the DM was allowing the butler golem to cause PCs to attack each other without the use of an attack ro
Keep in mind that SPEC adventures are intended to have more challenging combats than regular adventures. The powers of all monsters are directly from the source stat blocks.
Personally, I think the creature's ability to psudo-dominate without an attack roll is more fun that having an attack roll that actually dominates. For a mechanical perspecitve, it is quite balanced.
Attack 1: requires a to-hit roll, and you are dominated (save ends) means that you attack/charge an ally, can provoke, and lose your turn, possibly for more than one round
Attack 2: does not require a to-hit roll, you make an off-turn attack (without provoking), but you still get your turn
From a balancing perspective, the monster has given up the to-hit roll, but you still get your turn.
Sure, monster powers are intended to inhibit the PCs. However, given the choice between traditional dominate (you might not get another turn under your own power) and being auto-effected, but still getting all of your actions, I felt that Attack 2 is generally "more fun" than Attack 1. It's certainly debatable which power is more or less fun - and there are certainly those who believe that neither effect is fun. (Sure it's "not fun," but is the alternative any better? )
This is tough, but managable, specifically because PCs can get an extra saving throw each time they take damage. So, intentional "friendly fire" can be used to remove the condition.
Of course, this assumes that the DM is providing the PCs with enough information so that they know that they have this option. (i.e. "You are affected by unconscious (save ends), and you also get to make a saving throw each time you take damage.)
Thanks for sharing your feedback. I hope this clarifies the intent of how some of the challenging (and potentially frustrating) monster abilities were intended.
Keep in mind that SPEC adventures are intended to have more challenging combats than regular adventures. The powers of all monsters are directly from the source stat blocks."dominate"
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Personally, I think the creature's ability to psudo-do
Keep in mind that SPEC adventures are intended to have more challenging combats than regular adventures. The powers of all monsters are directly from the source stat blocks.
Personally, I think the creature's ability to psudo-dominate without an attack roll is more fun that having an attack roll that actually dominates. For a mechanical perspecitve, it is quite balanced.
Attack 1: requires a to-hit roll, and you are dominated (save ends) means that you attack/charge an ally, can provoke, and lose your turn, possibly for more than one round
Attack 2: does not require a to-hit roll, you make an off-turn attack (without provoking), but you still get your turn
From a balancing perspective, the monster has given up the to-hit roll, but you still get your turn.
Sure, monster powers are intended to inhibit the PCs. However, given the choice between traditional dominate (you might not get another turn under your own power) and being auto-effected, but still getting all of your actions, I felt that Attack 2 is generally "more fun" than Attack 1. It's certainly debatable which power is more or less fun - and there are certainly those who believe that neither effect is fun. (Sure it's "not fun," but is the alternative any better? )
This is tough, but managable, specifically because PCs can get an extra saving throw each time they take damage. So, intentional "friendly fire" can be used to remove the condition.
Of course, this assumes that the DM is providing the PCs with enough information so that they know that they have this option. (i.e. "You are affected by unconscious (save ends), and you also get to make a saving throw each time you take damage.)
Thanks for sharing your feedback. I hope this clarifies the intent of how some of the challenging (and potentially frustrating) monster abilities were intended.
Comments appreciated. I'm aware on one level that SPEC adventures are intended to be more challenging, but lack the experience context to weigh whether the results were appropriate overall.
What about making the pseudo-dominate attack vs. Will, hit: as the power currently ran; miss: dazed until start of the PCs next turn? For the unconscious - I know we weren't specifically prompted about friendly fire damage giving a save. I think that the damaged PCs woke up automatically, but the sequence of "you are unconscious"; monster's ally goes next, "I make a coup de grace" was still really potent. One PC at our table was nearly killed by it; another possibly could have been except that the DM had horrible dice luck during most of that fight.
Comments appreciated. I'm aware on one level that SPEC adventures are intended to be more challenging, but lack the experience context to weigh whether the results were appropriate overall.Spoiler:
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What about making the pseudo-dominate at
What about making the pseudo-dominate attack vs. Will, hit: as the power currently ran; miss: dazed until start of the PCs next turn?
Good questions for the WotC design team.
As authors, we try to keep as close to published monsters as possible, without trying to redesign new powers and abilities. While we change key words and damage types thematically, we do try to keep as close to the base creature as possible.
For the unconscious - I know we weren't specifically prompted about friendly fire damage giving a save. I think that the damaged PCs woke up automatically, but the sequence of "you are unconscious"; monster's ally goes next, "I make a coup de grace" was still really potent.
This possible initiative sequence was anticipated, and your experience is not how the encounter is intended - as detailed explicitly in the Tactics section. The adventure specifically advises against using the tactics you described. (So, I agree that with your assessment that the ability is very powerful - perhaps too powerful - without using the intended tactics as described in the adventure.)
Thanks again for sharing your experience!
Good questions for the WotC design team. :)As authors, we try to keep as close to published monsters as possible, without trying to redesign new powers and abilities. While we change key words and damage types thematically, we do try to keep as clos
Since I haven't seen the advised tactics, then, I'll hold my piece on any further discussion until I have the chance. Will ping you one other (possibly) relevant fact privately.
Since I haven't seen the advised tactics, then, I'll hold my piece on any further discussion until I have the chance. Will ping you one other (possibly) relevant fact privately.
The butler was fun. We tried very hard to reason with him, and then to disable him so we could fix him up and let him work for us, but apparently the mod wasn't written that way, so he just died. Would have been fun to be able to turn him into a tool like the other fixtures, even if it was just standing in a stationary spot (maybe his legs are too damaged) that could just make opportunity attacks.
His ability to have people charge around seemed to give some trouble to parties that had a charger. Particularly with mixed levels at a table, for instance at AL 4, a level 4-5 thief charging a level 3-4 wizard that had a few scratches on him from minions, can take the wizard from not quite bloodied to dead in one hit. In our party, once we saw what the butler could do, we basically sent our charger outside, and told him to just use ranged attacks. It reduced his effectiveness a bit, but allowed the rest of us to survive the fight. I don't mind this sort of tactical decision making. The fight is not so hard that you can't beat the butler with one person down. particularly since the monsters can start fairly far apart on the map.
The unconscious/coup de grace tactics were scary at first, particularly with the PC's spread out, but fun when we figured out we could wake up the unconscious PC with damage. Magic Missile was just about perfect for waking someone up (and we had conveniently found a wand of it). I had my Runepriest woken up by the warlock by being teleported 2 squares up and dropped. Took the max 10 damage, but it was well worth it.
The last fight was run very differently by the two DM's I played with, so I'm not entirely sure how it's supposed to go. The first time I played it, monsters were trying to take the PC's out before moving in. We took a ton of damage, and the fight was challenging both from a "staying alive" perspective and control to keep the enemies away from the portal circle. The second time, the monsters completely ignored the PC's and went for the portal. We took almost no damage in that fight, but it was still challenging as we tried to force them away or take them out before their turns.
The with mouse, the various terrain features, fixing the war machines, building traps and walls, and the different objectives, this was overall a fun mod.
I liked this mod, warts and all.Spoiler:
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The butler was fun. We tried very hard to reason with him, and then to disable him so we could fix him up and let him work for us, but apparently the mod wasn't written that way, so he just died. W
The butler was fun. We tried very hard to reason with him, and then to disable him so we could fix him up and let him work for us, but apparently the mod wasn't written that way, so he just died. Would have been fun to be able to turn him into a tool like the other fixtures, even if it was just standing in a stationary spot (maybe his legs are too damaged) that could just make opportunity attacks.
Although not explicit in the adventure, this is a reasonable course of action for the PCs. Easy enough for the DM to improvise something similar to the catapult tactics, or turn off his rage aura and treat him as a minion with his basic attack.
This is meant to be clear in the adventure, but I'll restate it here for other DMs preparing this adventure:
The adventure does not anticipate or try to cover every possible course of action the PCs might choose to take. Please feel free to take liberties and do not feel limited by the options in the adventure. For example, if the PCs want to repair the butler, avoid the temptation to say "the adventure doesn't say what to do if you try that," and instead improvise an appropriate effect. (Personally, I'd include the PC in the discussion and ask them what they want to repair the butler to do ... he could be a sentry, warrior, retrieve an item, build a wall, ... lots of possibilities.)
His ability to have people charge around seemed to give some trouble to parties that had a charger. Particularly with mixed levels at a table, for instance at AL 4, a level 4-5 thief charging a level 3-4 wizard that had a few scratches on him from minions, can take the wizard from not quite bloodied to dead in one hit. In our party, once we saw what the butler could do, we basically sent our charger outside, and told him to just use ranged attacks. It reduced his effectiveness a bit, but allowed the rest of us to survive the fight. I don't mind this sort of tactical decision making. The fight is not so hard that you can't beat the butler with one person down. particularly since the monsters can start fairly far apart on the map.
Glad it was a tactical challenge for your group. There are a LOT of ways to deal with this challenge. I won't spoil my list in a public forum, but if any DM wants some suggestions feel free to send me a PM. Generally in D&D, and especially in LFR, it never ceases to impress me how effective PCs are at problem-solving encounters. Certainly, having an optimized charge-build PC stand around in the aura is not a good idea ...
The unconscious/coup de grace tactics were scary at first, particularly with the PC's spread out, but fun when we figured out we could wake up the unconscious PC with damage. Magic Missile was just about perfect for waking someone up (and we had conveniently found a wand of it). I had my Runepriest woken up by the warlock by being teleported 2 squares up and dropped. Took the max 10 damage, but it was well worth it.
The last fight was run very differently by the two DM's I played with, so I'm not entirely sure how it's supposed to go. The first time I played it, monsters were trying to take the PC's out before moving in. We took a ton of damage, and the fight was challenging both from a "staying alive" perspective and control to keep the enemies away from the portal circle. The second time, the monsters completely ignored the PC's and went for the portal. We took almost no damage in that fight, but it was still challenging as we tried to force them away or take them out before their turns.
My reply is: it went exactly as it is supposed to go at each of those tables!
The last encounter is supposed to be challenging and fun, so as long as the players felt challenged in a fun way - then that's exactly how it is intended. Some groups will have fun being challenged by the high number of monsters attacking them, others will have fun being challenged by keeping the portal tokens from running out. The challenge for the DM is to identify (during the first 2/3 of the adventure) how to appropriately challenge - in a fun way - the group at the table. (The DM can also modify tactics during the encounter, having the monsters focus on the portal objective if winning the combat, and vice-versa.)
Thanks again for sharing your experience(s).
Thanks for the feedback! I'll thread my replies to your spoiler-comments in the spoiler block.Spoiler:
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Although not explicit in the adventure, this is a reasonable course of action for the PCs. Easy enough for the DM to improvise somethin
The butler was fun. We tried very hard to reason with him, and then to disable him so we could fix him up and let him work for us, but apparently the mod wasn't written that way, so he just died. Would have been fun to be able to turn him into a tool like the other fixtures, even if it was just standing in a stationary spot (maybe his legs are too damaged) that could just make opportunity attacks.
His ability to have people charge around seemed to give some trouble to parties that had a charger. Particularly with mixed levels at a table, for instance at AL 4, a level 4-5 thief charging a level 3-4 wizard that had a few scratches on him from minions, can take the wizard from not quite bloodied to dead in one hit. In our party, once we saw what the butler could do, we basically sent our charger outside, and told him to just use ranged attacks. It reduced his effectiveness a bit, but allowed the rest of us to survive the fight. I don't mind this sort of tactical decision making. The fight is not so hard that you can't beat the butler with one person down. particularly since the monsters can start fairly far apart on the map.
The unconscious/coup de grace tactics were scary at first, particularly with the PC's spread out, but fun when we figured out we could wake up the unconscious PC with damage. Magic Missile was just about perfect for waking someone up (and we had conveniently found a wand of it). I had my Runepriest woken up by the warlock by being teleported 2 squares up and dropped. Took the max 10 damage, but it was well worth it.
The last fight was run very differently by the two DM's I played with, so I'm not entirely sure how it's supposed to go. The first time I played it, monsters were trying to take the PC's out before moving in. We took a ton of damage, and the fight was challenging both from a "staying alive" perspective and control to keep the enemies away from the portal circle. The second time, the monsters completely ignored the PC's and went for the portal. We took almost no damage in that fight, but it was still challenging as we tried to force them away or take them out before their turns.
The with mouse, the various terrain features, fixing the war machines, building traps and walls, and the different objectives, this was overall a fun mod.
I think I was the warlock at your second table. I recall teleporting somebody up and out of the way, at any rate.
I know we also had somebody try to reason with the butler, but just completely blowing their die rolls.
I think I was the warlock at your second table. :) I recall teleporting somebody up and out of the way, at any rate.I know we also had somebody try to reason with the butler, but just completely blowing their die rolls.
The butler was fun. We tried very hard to reason with him, and then to disable him so we could fix him up and let him work for us, but apparently the mod wasn't written that way, so he just died. Would have been fun to be able to turn him into a tool like the other fixtures, even if it was just standing in a stationary spot (maybe his legs are too damaged) that could just make opportunity attacks.
His ability to have people charge around seemed to give some trouble to parties that had a charger. Particularly with mixed levels at a table, for instance at AL 4, a level 4-5 thief charging a level 3-4 wizard that had a few scratches on him from minions, can take the wizard from not quite bloodied to dead in one hit. In our party, once we saw what the butler could do, we basically sent our charger outside, and told him to just use ranged attacks. It reduced his effectiveness a bit, but allowed the rest of us to survive the fight. I don't mind this sort of tactical decision making. The fight is not so hard that you can't beat the butler with one person down. particularly since the monsters can start fairly far apart on the map.
The unconscious/coup de grace tactics were scary at first, particularly with the PC's spread out, but fun when we figured out we could wake up the unconscious PC with damage. Magic Missile was just about perfect for waking someone up (and we had conveniently found a wand of it). I had my Runepriest woken up by the warlock by being teleported 2 squares up and dropped. Took the max 10 damage, but it was well worth it.
The last fight was run very differently by the two DM's I played with, so I'm not entirely sure how it's supposed to go. The first time I played it, monsters were trying to take the PC's out before moving in. We took a ton of damage, and the fight was challenging both from a "staying alive" perspective and control to keep the enemies away from the portal circle. The second time, the monsters completely ignored the PC's and went for the portal. We took almost no damage in that fight, but it was still challenging as we tried to force them away or take them out before their turns.
The with mouse, the various terrain features, fixing the war machines, building traps and walls, and the different objectives, this was overall a fun mod.
I liked this mod, too. It might have been my favorite adventure at the show. Marvin was a lot of fun, and our thief gave him a large variety of cheese. I think we played this at AL 6 with 4 people, and it was just about right--not too hard and not too easy. It was nice to use some strategy instead of just brute force and lots of healing. (Though, if I hadn't multi-classed my Cleric with Wizard, we might have had some problems... no other Arcana classes.)
I liked this mod, too. It might have been my favorite adventure at the show. Marvin was a lot of fun, and our thief gave him a large variety of cheese. I think we played this at AL 6 with 4 people, and it was just about right--not too hard and not
I think I was the warlock at your second table. I recall teleporting somebody up and out of the way, at any rate.
I know we also had somebody try to reason with the butler, but just completely blowing their die rolls.
Yeah I was the Goliath Runepriest you teleported. First time I played it, we had some better rolls with diplomacy (or maybe it was bluff), but the butler was glichy, did not compute... must destroy intruders.
I liked this mod, too. It might have been my favorite adventure at the show. Marvin was a lot of fun, and our thief gave him a large variety of cheese. I think we played this at AL 6 with 4 people, and it was just about right--not too hard and not too easy. It was nice to use some strategy instead of just brute force and lots of healing. (Though, if I hadn't multi-classed my Cleric with Wizard, we might have had some problems... no other Arcana classes.)
I was the monk at your table. Indeed it was nice to have someone with Arcana to deal with the circle, and someone with Thievery to deal with the warmachines. Good playing with you again.
Yeah I was the Goliath Runepriest you teleported. First time I played it, we had some better rolls with diplomacy (or maybe it was bluff), but the butler was glichy, did not compute... must destroy intruders.I was the monk at your table. :) Indeed it
I liked this mod, too. It might have been my favorite adventure at the show. Marvin was a lot of fun, and our thief gave him a large variety of cheese. I think we played this at AL 6 with 4 people, and it was just about right--not too hard and not too easy. It was nice to use some strategy instead of just brute force and lots of healing. (Though, if I hadn't multi-classed my Cleric with Wizard, we might have had some problems... no other Arcana classes.)
Don't worry, the adventure give ample of ways to deal with other skills. It is easier with Arcana and Thievery, but there are definitely alternatives.
As for repairing the butler, when I ran it the group wanted to do so as well. I wish I had thought of turning it into a trap as has been suggested. That is a great sollution, and it is actually discussed in the adventure. I just did not thought of it. Sometimes it can be a challenge to think of such things on the fly.
As for title and blurb (now that I am finally home - and no the storm did not cause me any delays, it simply takes a lot of time traveling from Fort Wayne to the Netherlands ): SPEC5-1 Marthoc's Mansion By Dan Anderson A typical briefing is interrupted with urgent intelligence about a tactical advantage for the resistance to the occupying forces in Elturel. Can you secure a location vital to the resistance? A Living Forgotten Realms adventure set in Elturgard for characters levels 1-10. This is a combat intensive adventure. The adventure is the sequel to ELTU4-4, and connected to SPEC5-2 and ADCP5-1. It is best to play the adventure before ADCP5-1, but it is not required.
Don't worry, the adventure give ample of ways to deal with other skills. It is easier with Arcana and Thievery, but there are definitely alternatives.Spoiler:
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As for repairing the butler, when I ran it the group wanted to do so as well. I
As for repairing the butler, when I ran it the group wanted to do so as well. I wish I had thought of turning it into a trap as has been suggested. That is a great sollution, and it is actually discussed in the adventure. I just did not thought of it. Sometimes it can be a challenge to think of such things on the fly.
Not a big deal, it's something that could probably have been written into the mod as it seems like it might be a fairly common thought, but there were plenty of other things to do for skill checks. I was the monk at your table by the way, in case you didn't figure that out.
Not a big deal, it's something that could probably have been written into the mod as it seems like it might be a fairly common thought, but there were plenty of other things to do for skill checks. I was the monk at your table by the way, in case you
My Psion (only arcana character in the party) made friends with Marvin early on, and when the golem activated, instead of fighting, me and the warlock started convincing Marvin that we were the Extreme Home Makeover crew, and that the constructs should help us fix (fortify) this place before the master got back. This took some time (skill checks), but eventually Marvin scurried over to the golem to explain the situation to it. I quickly went after it to tell the golem how we were going to rebuild the place, and it stood down.
After the adventure and the war, my Psion is probably going to rebuild the place for himself and take Marvin as a familiar
Played it yesterday, and we had a lot of fun! Spoiler:
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My Psion (only arcana character in the party) made friends with Marvin early on, and when the golem activated, instead of fighting, me and the warlock started convincing Marvin that
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