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8 months ago ::
Oct 27, 2012 - 1:10AM
#1
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Title says it all...
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8 months ago ::
Oct 28, 2012 - 3:29AM
#2
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A few notes from Sat. morning's run... AL6, party of 5, all 4th-5th level. Thri-Kreen Druid, Shadar-kai Invoker, Human Thief, Human Warlord, Tiefling Paladin. Encounter 1: Panic Attack
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The Mad Wraiths are non-elites that have full standard HP and are also insubstantial. Not actually a problem in this group due to the Invoker, but was this really intended? Warlord saved the day on the civilian/guard issue by Stand The Fallen-ing the map. Encounter 2: Rescue Mission
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Section two of this skill challenge omits the rather obvious eventuality of what happens when a PC wants to use an at-will attack that doesn't roll (i.e. Magic Missile) or attacks more than one time or target (Twin Strike, Hand of Radiance, Magic Stones, et. al.). How this gets ruled by table is going to have a potentially messy impact, especially if a group fails the challenge and has to go on badly damaged because e.g. the Ranger whiffed Twin Strike and is now starting the next encounter bloodied.
I personally decided to let the Invoker (who will become a recurring theme in this report) use HoR for multiple successes but also eat the damage for missing on any of the rolls, taking the damage maximum of once. It seems to work reasonably, acting as a gamble that can increase the group success pool if they all hit but also raise your odds of getting hurt. Encounter 3: They're Getting Away
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If the witch fights a running retreat with the prisoners from round 1, it would take her 4 rounds to reach the top of the stairs and she'd have no actions left to lock/trap the door even then, so her escape with the prisoners doesn't appear to be an especially realistic threat.
Of course, it never came to that because, fun fact: Thri-kreen Druids have a move speed of 8 and can charge 10 squares, so she got immobilized immediately... and he then readied an action to do it again if she teleported away. At that point, the Shadar-kai Invoker (yes, again) daze+proned 2/3 Gargoyles and offered to let the shadar-kai live if they'd let the prisoners go. Team monster-wise, 1 gargoyle got to go in total. Quickest I've ever ended a combat.
As a bit of tactical advice for other DMs, if you're going to make an actual challenge out of this one, give the Shadar-kai a prep round: have the Gloomblade(s) start readied to charge whoever's first past the statues (this is arguably in line with writer intent, since it says they should "ambush" a PC) and let the Witch start with her standard action utility triggered. Encounter 4: The Plot Thickens
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This ended up being the most interesting bit of the adventure, imo, as the PCs had "won" by demonstrating the Shadar-kai couldn't escape with the hostages, but the Shadar-kai were still fresh and therefore in a remarkably different bargaining position than expected. The PCs got the information on the portal location and freed the prisoners, but when the PCs (at the ambassador's urging) refused to let the Shadar-kai go free, I made a quick encumbrance estimate and had 2 of the Gargoyles carry them off into the skies, leaving the last one to fight the PCs before they proceeded. Encounter 5: To Stop A Madman
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"A PC may use a move action to make a Moderate DC Arcana check to return from the Shadowfell... Only Arcana checks count toward closing the portal, and it requires 4 successful checks to close it." ...and here we find the part of the adventure that inordinately sucks. Take a glance at the PC list again. Perfectly well-rounded group, and perfectly screwed by this skill challenge because someone felt like making arcanists a character tax. Due to the combination of being locked down to a single skill, a non-negligible failure penalty, and a hard cap on checks (rather than successes) per PC per round, this skill challenge is awfully designed. Oh, and the number of successes needed doesn't scale by number of PCs, which it also probably should.
Fortunately I caught this particular royal screwup in my initial read-through, so I'd already fixed it to allow Nature and raw CHA checks to attempt to close the portal, and Endurance and Insight checks to find one's way back to the real world. (In retrospect, if I run this again I'll probably alter the return from the portal to just use the saving throw mechanic instead.)
Combat-wise, the Guardian Demons being immune to stun made the Invoker a very sad girl. Between that and some poor rolls they got off to a bad start, but realized closing the portal was key after the first wave of reinforcements and were able to make it through that and killing the rest of the demons with only 2 PCs hitting zero. Had I not fixed the skill challenge portions to not be ridiculous, however, at least one PC would have died of autodamage in the shadowfell due to an author with no sense of balance and at least one additional wave of demons would've made it out. So, again, fix that ****.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 29, 2012 - 1:43AM
#3
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A few notes from Sat. morning's run... AL6, party of 5, all 4th-5th level. Thri-Kreen Druid, Shadar-kai Invoker, Human Thief, Human Warlord, Tiefling Paladin.
Encounter 1: Panic Attack
Show
The Mad Wraiths are non-elites that have full standard HP and are also insubstantial. Not actually a problem in this group due to the Invoker, but was this really intended? Warlord saved the day on the civilian/guard issue by Stand The Fallen-ing the map.
New rules. They added the weakness to that trait and simplified hit points.
Encounter 2: Rescue Mission
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Section two of this skill challenge omits the rather obvious eventuality of what happens when a PC wants to use an at-will attack that doesn't roll (i.e. Magic Missile) or attacks more than one time or target (Twin Strike, Hand of Radiance, Magic Stones, et. al.). How this gets ruled by table is going to have a potentially messy impact, especially if a group fails the challenge and has to go on badly damaged because e.g. the Ranger whiffed Twin Strike and is now starting the next encounter bloodied.
I personally decided to let the Invoker (who will become a recurring theme in this report) use HoR for multiple successes but also eat the damage for missing on any of the rolls, taking the damage maximum of once. It seems to work reasonably, acting as a gamble that can increase the group success pool if they all hit but also raise your odds of getting hurt.
Spoiler:
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The "attack"-roll represents one fight, but not one actual attack. It is simply a representation of allowing one roll decide the outcome of a short. potentially brutal fight. Still, probably something that should have been discussed. If an at-will I would rule it as one success (perhaps automatic in case of magic misisile), if an encounter power I would still likely rule it as one success unless the area is bigger than a 1 burst, 3 blast or 2 targets. If a daily, obviously I would rule much more in favor of the PCs. Spoiler:
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Had I not fixed the skill challenge portions to not be ridiculous, however, at least one PC would have died of autodamage in the shadowfell due to an author with no sense of balance and at least one additional wave of demons would've made it out. So, again, fix that ****.
Not entirely sure how I missed that. I am honestly not sure whether or not Nature and/or Religion should replace Arcana (I sometimes feel that we are deluting some of the skills a bit too much; strictly speaking Nature has nothing to do with planar stuff), but in that case DCs should have been corrected and the check limitation should not have been there. Probably a situation where the challenge was partially corrected (not one player being able to finish it in 1 round), but not corrected at other spots. Sorry.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 29, 2012 - 2:56AM
#4
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Nature does, however, have a whole lot to do with preventing and repairing planar incursions, making it an appropriate skill for the challenge.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 29, 2012 - 5:15AM
#5
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In addition to the points above, there are some edge casing problems I see now that I'm looking at the whole set of stat blocks rather than just the mid-tier one we used. Scaling/math issues
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The Guards in encounter 1 deal a static 5 damage across all levels, meaning PCs get a massively larger bang for their buck at 2 than 10. This might have been intentional, but if it was, that intent was flawed: motivating the guards is equally difficult at 10 as at 2, so it should be equally effective. The Guards should instead deal approximately AL damage (start at 3 for the edge case at AL 2 and match AL after that) at all levels.
The Guards in encounter 1 are 2 points light on AC. This was presumably overlooked because none of the monsters attack AC, but the PCs can be forced to attack the Guards by the Wraiths, so the defense gap does in fact matter.
The author forgot to make the Mad Wraith's aura damage scale by level. At AL 2 the stacking 5 aura damage is going to be overpowering (read: 30% of PC health if you get into both), while at AL 10 it's rather pointless. Running the numbers vs. the original monster level and PC HP growth, the aura should be approximately 3 damage at AL 2, 5 at 4/6, and 8 at 8/10. Note that the Witch's similar effect was scaled.
Stuff that could be better
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The Shadar-kai and Xavier possess magical gear but it is not incorporated into their stats in any way. While mechanically not a problem, I find this personally disappointing whenever it happens.
This module uses 6 distinct standard demons and it gives every one of them Variable Resistance. There is an entire section in the Demonomicon dedicated to stuff you can replace Variable Resistance with for a reason, so let's use it. There are so many more thematic options for individual demons that you could be bringing in.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 29, 2012 - 12:34PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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erachima: your overall view of the module?
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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8 months ago ::
Oct 29, 2012 - 3:37PM
#7
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Oh, overall, I like it quite a bit. Good pacing, nice loot, the challenge of rescuing the civilians and ambassador keeps the PCs on their toes.
Except for the last skill challenge, which is a major error, the rest of the issues I've brought up don't rise to the level of a problem. I just like being thorough.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 30, 2012 - 11:01AM
#8
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Thanks for your feedback on the adventure, and I'm glad that you still enjoyed it. Here was my thinking for the skill challenge in the final encounter: Spoiler:
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While Arcana is the only skill used to actually close the portal, I listed a number of other skills which are useful in granting a +2 bonus to the PC making the arcana check. So my goal was to involve everyone in the challenge, yet have the focus be an arcane based character - as if it were a standoff between Xavier and that particular PC, with the other PCs urging him on, so to speak.
Also, I've received feedback and seen players mention before that they don't particularly care for skill challenges within a fight which tie up the entire party and make it difficult for the PCs to actually "fight"... but rather they all have to focus on doing the skill challenge. I felt by making the challenge focus on a single PC (or perhaps two PCs if there are a couple characters with arcana) it would solve that problem.
As usual, it's tough to know exactly what is going to work for EVERY table, and I'm glad to see that you were able to make adjustments that worked for your group and still made the adventure fun.
co-author, CALI4-2 Dragon Above, Desert Below
author, CORE4-4 Shadow Siege
co-author, SPEC5-2 Closer To The Heart
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8 months ago ::
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:19PM
#9
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What.
OK, if your intent was "Wizard duel!", I'm afraid my opinion of the encounter design just sunk even further. Let's break this down for a second:
You've designed a battle to intentionally focus around the actions of one PC.
This one PC may not even exist in the party. If he does not exist, then the battle continues forever until they get lucky, overwhelmed by the escalating damage from the demons, or run out of healing.
And you did this on purpose.
In a format meant for non-coordinated parties.
Not to mention, the guys you talk about? The ones who don't like it when skill challenges bottleneck the encounter? This sort of encounter is exactly the type they're complaining about, where the fight demands that some specific character (usually the Rogue or Wizard) spend all their actions fiddling with some gadget in the background instead of contributing to the stabbing and the end result has nobody feel like they're accomplishing anything.
Oh, and just to add insult to injury, let's not forget that you specifically excluded the two entire power sources full of characters whose fluff focuses on driving off demons, undead, or protecting the integrity of the natural world from planar incursion from contributing to what is supposed to be their schtick!
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8 months ago ::
Oct 31, 2012 - 1:49AM
#10
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The skill challenge is more limited than was the intent. I made some corrections to make it better fit the LFR format, but overlooked how some of the things I changed, made it easier on the PCs in their original format. My fault entirely. Note that the divine power source is always problematic in these kind of things. Religion might be the natural skill to pick, but virtually all divine classes tend to have horrible Religion skills since it is Intelligence based (in fact, more often than not the arcane classes have a better Religion skill). Proposed Alternative
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My proposal is to add Nature and Religion for the ritual casters. Athletics and Thievery could be added as well to disrupt the magical bindings scrawled on the floor that keep the rift open.
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