Especially at epic, it is very difficult to be effective in a bubble. If other PCs want to be defended, they might want to invest in abilities and powers that group monsters up for their defender.
Dan Anderson @EpicUthrac Living Forgotten Realms Calimshan Writing Director Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Meet me at TotalConfusion: http://www.totalcon.com/RolePlaying.html
I promised myself I wouldn't get defensive about criticisms of this adventure, but the concerns about maps, monster size, and monster distance caused me to look at the actual data.
Here are the monster sizes and minimum distances from the PC start area for each encounter.
Encounter 2 (D)evouring cloud, Huge -- 3 (S)oul Stealer, x2, Medium -- 4 Soul (E)ater, x2, Large -- 8, 10
Encounter 5B Death (T)hrall, x6, Medium, minion -- 2 Death Giant (S)oulcatcher, x2, Large -- 8, 10 (L)orragauth (dracloich), Gargantuan -- not on map to start
Encounter 5C Scion of (H)orror, Medium -- 2 Eye of (F)ear and Flame, Medium -- 12 (S)zass Tam -- not targetable to start (E)lminster -- 13
Encounter 6B (B)eholder Eye of Loss, x6, Large -- 0, 5, 8
Encounter 6C Fallen (A)ngel of Bane, x3, Large -- 4 Battlesworn (O)gre Mauler, x3, Large -- 4 (F)zoul Chembryl, Medium -- 10
Encounter 7A Death (K)night (mounted), Large -- 16 (R)agewind, x3, Large -- 7 (L)egion of the Dead, x5, Medium, minion -- 3, 6, farther
Encounter 7C (F)alse Manshoon, Medium -- 10 (V)ampire Black Mages, x4, Medium -- 5, 6, 23 (M)anshoon -- not on map to start
Encounter 8 [distance depends upon sigils; best case is below] (O)ublivae, Large -- 7 (B)alor, x2, Large -- 2, 3
In three encounters (5B, 5C, 7C) we used the trick of not placing the "boss monster" on the map to start. That's because we have to do something to prevent the boss monster from being alpha-struck into oblivion before it gets a turn. (And I do wish there were a more elegant solution, but this is a systemic problem of 4e.)
Obviously, the Defender can't mark the boss monster at combat start if the boss monster isn't on the map. However, in each of these encounters, there are other monsters within easy distance of the PCs. And once the boss monster shows up, the Defender can of course re-prioritize whether it needs to be marked.
Also, let us consider that almost every Defender (I'd say "every" but someone out there is playing a gnome in plate mail) can move 5 squares before applying a mark. Let us further assume the mark has a "virtual range" of 2 squares -- in reality the "range" will be much greater for some Defenders (how far can a Fighter move+charge?). Thus let us assume that any monster within 7 squares of the PC's starting position is a valid mark target.
Seven out of the eight encounters have at least two non-minion monsters within 7 squares of the PC's start area. Not necessarily nicely bunched up, but at least the Defender has choices.
Conclusion: The Defender can always mark at least one monster on the first turn of every encounter. Possibly not the exact monster he wanted, and possibly not a big bunch of monsters, but the Defender is certainly not left without valid mark targets.
Based on default encounters there are 45 monsters in EPIC4-2:
1 Gargantuan (2%) 1 Huge (2%) 23 Large (51%) 20 Medium (44%) 45 TOTAL
Based on some quick and dirty searches of the DDI Compendium using the size keywords, at Epic tier the entire palette of monsters is distributed as follows:
72 Gargantuan (8%) 164 Huge (17%) 271 Large (29%) 396 Medium (42%) 21 Small (2%) 18 Tiny (2%) 942 TOTAL
EPIC4-2 doesn't include any Small or Tiny foes even though they make up 4% of Epic monsters. So that's an oversight I guess. EPIC4-2 includes almost exactly the same percentage of Medium foes as the Epic palette. EPIC4-2 does include a much higher percentage (51% vs. 29%) of Large foes that the Epic palette, but... EPIC4-2 includes a *significantly* lower percentage (4% vs. 25%) of Huge and Gargantuan foes.
Overall: Epic palette -- 54% of monsters bigger than Medium. EPIC4-2 -- 56% of monsters bigger than Medium.
Conclusion: This is Epic tier. More than half of the entire monster palette is bigger than Medium. EPIC4-2 is representative of that reality. The number of bigger-than-Medium creatures in EPIC4-2 is almost exactly what you'd expect.
As Josh said, monsters just get bigger. It's not that the writers are making them bigger, WOTC's R&D did. They also are not all sitting in a big clump because 1) they would be alpha struck before they act and the fight would be over (so you wouldn't get to make them anyway) & 2) when PCs are not there, all the monsters do not stand around hugging.
Um. I want big maps. Big maps are fun in epic. They're a part of the feel of Epic play. Don't take those away.
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
Based on some quick and dirty searches of the DDI Compendium using the size keywords, at Epic tier the entire palette of monsters is distributed as follows:
18 Tiny (2%)
I got curious what would be tiny epic monsters... so went and searched for Tiny and level > 21.
So I think you're within the error bars for even use of size/small monsters too.
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
The next EPIC adventure will be "Honey, I shrunk the PCs."
That way, we can use the tiny/small monsters and still use ginormeous minis. Or, you can use your cat for a mini, and your living room as the map. (The PCs are actually "to scale.")
Dan Anderson @EpicUthrac Living Forgotten Realms Calimshan Writing Director Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Meet me at TotalConfusion: http://www.totalcon.com/RolePlaying.html
I promised myself I wouldn't get defensive about criticisms of this adventure, but the concerns about maps, monster size, and monster distance caused me to look at the actual data.
Here are the monster sizes and minimum distances from the PC start area for each encounter.
Encounter 2 (D)evouring cloud, Huge -- 3 (S)oul Stealer, x2, Medium -- 4 Soul (E)ater, x2, Large -- 8, 10
Encounter 5B Death (T)hrall, x6, Medium, minion -- 2 Death Giant (S)oulcatcher, x2, Large -- 8, 10 (L)orragauth (dracloich), Gargantuan -- not on map to start
Encounter 5C Scion of (H)orror, Medium -- 2 Eye of (F)ear and Flame, Medium -- 12 (S)zass Tam -- not targetable to start (E)lminster -- 13
Encounter 6B (B)eholder Eye of Loss, x6, Large -- 0, 5, 8
Encounter 6C Fallen (A)ngel of Bane, x3, Large -- 4 Battlesworn (O)gre Mauler, x3, Large -- 4 (F)zoul Chembryl, Medium -- 10
Encounter 7A Death (K)night (mounted), Large -- 16 (R)agewind, x3, Large -- 7 (L)egion of the Dead, x5, Medium, minion -- 3, 6, farther
Encounter 7C (F)alse Manshoon, Medium -- 10 (V)ampire Black Mages, x4, Medium -- 5, 6, 23 (M)anshoon -- not on map to start
Encounter 8 [distance depends upon sigils; best case is below] (O)ublivae, Large -- 7 (B)alor, x2, Large -- 2, 3
In three encounters (5B, 5C, 7C) we used the trick of not placing the "boss monster" on the map to start. That's because we have to do something to prevent the boss monster from being alpha-struck into oblivion before it gets a turn. (And I do wish there were a more elegant solution, but this is a systemic problem of 4e.)
Obviously, the Defender can't mark the boss monster at combat start if the boss monster isn't on the map. However, in each of these encounters, there are other monsters within easy distance of the PCs. And once the boss monster shows up, the Defender can of course re-prioritize whether it needs to be marked.
Also, let us consider that almost every Defender (I'd say "every" but someone out there is playing a gnome in plate mail) can move 5 squares before applying a mark. Let us further assume the mark has a "virtual range" of 2 squares -- in reality the "range" will be much greater for some Defenders (how far can a Fighter move+charge?). Thus let us assume that any monster within 7 squares of the PC's starting position is a valid mark target.
Seven out of the eight encounters have at least two non-minion monsters within 7 squares of the PC's start area. Not necessarily nicely bunched up, but at least the Defender has choices.
Conclusion: The Defender can always mark at least one monster on the first turn of every encounter. Possibly not the exact monster he wanted, and possibly not a big bunch of monsters, but the Defender is certainly not left without valid mark targets.
Based on default encounters there are 45 monsters in EPIC4-2:
1 Gargantuan (2%) 1 Huge (2%) 23 Large (51%) 20 Medium (44%) 45 TOTAL
Based on some quick and dirty searches of the DDI Compendium using the size keywords, at Epic tier the entire palette of monsters is distributed as follows:
72 Gargantuan (8%) 164 Huge (17%) 271 Large (29%) 396 Medium (42%) 21 Small (2%) 18 Tiny (2%) 942 TOTAL
EPIC4-2 doesn't include any Small or Tiny foes even though they make up 4% of Epic monsters. So that's an oversight I guess. EPIC4-2 includes almost exactly the same percentage of Medium foes as the Epic palette. EPIC4-2 does include a much higher percentage (51% vs. 29%) of Large foes that the Epic palette, but... EPIC4-2 includes a *significantly* lower percentage (4% vs. 25%) of Huge and Gargantuan foes.
Overall: Epic palette -- 54% of monsters bigger than Medium. EPIC4-2 -- 56% of monsters bigger than Medium.
Conclusion: This is Epic tier. More than half of the entire monster palette is bigger than Medium. EPIC4-2 is representative of that reality. The number of bigger-than-Medium creatures in EPIC4-2 is almost exactly what you'd expect.
I am sorry if I gave that impression but the distance of creatures from where you start was not bad, at times annoying, but its epic if you have no way to more more then your base speed on the first round your not trying.
I dont have any issue with not having every boss creature out at the start, like you said alpha-striking is a problem.
yes the epic creatures published are very much on the large side when you get to epic but that is the easiest thing to change, there are only a few mechanics that change with the size of creatures and they can be adjusted (aura's and whatnot).
the problem is that between the size of the maps, and the size of creatures a defender can only rarely mark more then one target, even besides mechanics like having every creature fly over a large pit, or stand in acid that mean that the you can only defend if the creature wants you to, no other role has such issues.
saying that its ok that defenders can only defend 1 target is like saying that a wizard that only does control on one target (and its not stun or dominate) is a good controler in epic, by that point he should be doing much more
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to be honest the last epic was the closest I have ever come to walking away from an LFR table, I liked the players and DM but it was so fustrating knowing I could not help the party in any way and the my epic character was much more useless then he was at any other level, it felt like playing a striker who who had a debuff to only do 1/8 normal damage
Insulting someones grammar on a forum is like losing to someone in a drag race and saying they were cheating by having racing stripes.
Not only do the two things not relate to each other (the logic behind the person's position, and their grammar) but you sound like an idiot for saying it (and you should, because its really stupid )
Especially at epic, it is very difficult to be effective in a bubble. If other PCs want to be defended, they might want to invest in abilities and powers that group monsters up for their defender.
what well made striker will do sub-par damage if they dont have people helping them?
what controler will be unable to control without help?
what about leaders? do clerics need help to cast healing word? everything they do they do on their own
Insulting someones grammar on a forum is like losing to someone in a drag race and saying they were cheating by having racing stripes.
Not only do the two things not relate to each other (the logic behind the person's position, and their grammar) but you sound like an idiot for saying it (and you should, because its really stupid )
I have not played the newest epic, I have looked at the maps (I dont like to do that but I will if its what is needed to make my character usefull)
I do have some questions, I would rather know now if my character will be able to make a meanfull contribution as a defender
1) are there any mechanics that make making OA's and or interups not possible?
2) is there yet another fight where you cant teleport?
3) what about fights where an assalt swordmage mark would not work because of flying creatures or dangrous floors or something?
4) creatures that just dont take marks? (being able to remove one condition per round or something is ok, I mean creatures that there is no reason to ever mark)
if someone has time I would like my questions answered
Insulting someones grammar on a forum is like losing to someone in a drag race and saying they were cheating by having racing stripes.
Not only do the two things not relate to each other (the logic behind the person's position, and their grammar) but you sound like an idiot for saying it (and you should, because its really stupid )
