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10 months ago ::
Aug 06, 2012 - 5:27AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Apr 14, 2010
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Now that themes are a definite part of Fourth Edition, I think it's a good time to have this discussion again. Is it time to unban Dark Sun themes from LFR? I say yes, unban them. With the Escaped Thrall theme (Dungeon Survival Handbook) that grants an additional power point, we now have a general equivalent for just about every Dark Sun theme. If you look at the themes in Character Optimization's most up to date generally agreed upon Theme Handbook, you will find that no Dark Sun theme scores higher than Dark Blue, or above average quality, while most score Purple, or below average quality/niche. If flavor is an issue, just look at all the other stuff from other campaign settings that is permitted in LFR. Warforged are a prime example of this. Is there a very good reason to keep the themes banned? If not, then I encourage the Globals to unban them so players have more fun options available for character creation.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 06, 2012 - 9:31AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2008
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"general equivalent" != equivalent.
Also, using the CharOp measures of a mechanic to argue for changes in LFR is probably not going to go very far. Just saying.
Also, there were automatons in the Realms before "warforged", there were also Thri-kreen, and some other things ... being a hodge podge will do that to you. So, LFR may be fairly inclusive, but I think the general rule of keeping things that are in (setting) flavor and dumping things that aren't, is still a good one.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 06, 2012 - 11:25AM
#3
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Date Joined:
May 29, 2001
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Now that themes are a definite part of Fourth Edition, I think it's a good time to have this discussion again. Is it time to unban Dark Sun themes from LFR?
No - specifically because there are far more significant things that still require doing before getting to a point this low on the priority list.
--
Pauper
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10 months ago ::
Aug 06, 2012 - 1:55PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Apr 14, 2010
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Also, using the CharOp measures of a mechanic to argue for changes in LFR is probably not going to go very far. Just saying.
Also, there were automatons in the Realms before "warforged", there were also Thri-kreen, and some other things ... being a hodge podge will do that to you. So, LFR may be fairly inclusive, but I think the general rule of keeping things that are in (setting) flavor and dumping things that aren't, is still a good one.
I don't know what the original argument(s) against the DS themes were. Too powerful? Not anymore. Not in flavor? Please, there are many, many other/more unflavorful things out there that are allowed in LFR. If those were the arguments, they're not valid anymore.
Now that themes are a definite part of Fourth Edition, I think it's a good time to have this discussion again. Is it time to unban Dark Sun themes from LFR?
No - specifically because there are far more significant things that still require doing before getting to a point this low on the priority list.
Like...
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10 months ago ::
Aug 06, 2012 - 4:16PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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Like finalizing the meta-org document.
Updating the rules doc.
Releasing moar modules (especially those that have been delayed)
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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10 months ago ::
Aug 06, 2012 - 5:13PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2008
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I don't know what the original argument(s) against the DS themes were. Too powerful? Not anymore.
Assuming that was a reason for dismissing them, the presence of equally or more powerful options doesn't negate the reason for disallowing them on the grounds of being too powerful. It just means that either 1) other factors weighed higher with different allowed options, or 2) those options are also too powerful and just need to be addressed.
Not in flavor? Please, there are many, many other/more unflavorful things out there that are allowed in LFR.
Like ... ?
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10 months ago ::
Aug 07, 2012 - 12:44AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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I don't know what the original argument(s) against the DS themes were. Too powerful? Not anymore.
Assuming that was a reason for dismissing them, the presence of equally or more powerful options doesn't negate the reason for disallowing them on the grounds of being too powerful. It just means that either 1) other factors weighed higher with different allowed options, or 2) those options are also too powerful and just need to be addressed.
Er, not in this case. Any of the new themes are more powerful than the DS themes, because they also come with level 5&10 features, in addition to the encounter power. The class of DS themes is pretty much strictly inferior to the non-DS themes. (Escaped Slave, and Noble Adept still hold up, otherwise ... ... ...) Since basically all the new themes are more powerful, option #2 doesn't seem to be relevant.
Now, flavor considerations could still be valid, at least for the really DS-tied themes. (Defiling related ones)
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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10 months ago ::
Aug 07, 2012 - 1:44AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Apr 14, 2010
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I'll yield to the defiling related stuff, except that it doesn't matter because none of the themes have any mechanical interaction with arcane defiling.
And I agree that there's still a lot to do for the Globals, but really, there's almost no work involved in this. One Global sends out a mail to the rest, everyone replies, someone tallies the opinions and if necessary makes the announcement on these forums that DS themes are now allowed. Oh, and deletes one line of text from the rules doc.
I hope a Global can chime in on this, even if it's just to tell us the chances of this happening.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 07, 2012 - 3:48AM
#9
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The main reason why we originally banned them was both power and fluff. At the time there were no other themes, so if we allowed them, the campaign would end up with all PCs selecting one of these themes. Campaign setting fluff was important as well, but that is something that can be worked around.
As for whether or not we will open them, I am unsure whether or not that will happen. I will try to remember to bring it up at GenCon meetings. As others have said, there are bigger priorities, and there is always the downside of just confusing things more by a midway change.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 07, 2012 - 7:00AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2008
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I agree that this is a low priority...
On the flip side, this is low hanging fruit that can be done in literally a minute's time....
In addition, the campaign guide NEEDS to be updated anyways and if the Global's agree, it is a matter of doing some backspacing to remove the DS theme restriction in the guide.
Lastly, it would be nice so see SOME measure of progress of forward movement in this campaign that does not revolve around new adventure release based on DDXP, Origins and GenCon dates.
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