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13 months ago ::
Jun 04, 2012 - 4:33AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Aug 10, 2007
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This thread is for discussion of CALI4-3 Twisted Rune.
Preparing to run this adventure and have questions? Want to share your feedback? This is the place!
Dan Anderson @EpicUthrac Living Forgotten Realms Calimshan Writing Director Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Meet me at TotalConfusion: http://www.totalcon.com/RolePlaying.html
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12 months ago ::
Jun 08, 2012 - 10:23AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2006
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This adventure was probably OK, but having just played the other two, I think it suffered by comparison. We felt somewhat unsure of what we were supposed to do, felt that random stuff was just happening, and overall just didn't feel a lot of clarity in this adventure.
ENC 1: Intro - Previously the WeavePasha seemed in control, had good intelligence and can detect crystals. Here he is "One might be in the hands of the Twisted Rune. They are probably doing bad things too. Stop whatever badness if you can, but if they do have the crystal, get that first." - Re-write to introduce him with the same tone as the other mods, and have him tell you that he knows the TR have the crystal and to go get it. The TR have magically shrouded it from detection. Don't bother with secondary objectives that are totally vague.
ENC 2: Wandering about - All you learn in this is (1) Jamah has started meeting TR people (2) Next stop is the admin buildings - Too many scenes for this minimal info. I'd bring them down to three scenes, of which any two are enough. Seemed just unnecessary. Reading the mod, the fast play instructions (WeavePasha just sends the PCs to the next scene, skipping this one) seem a better choice, but a few focused scenes would be fine.
ENC 3: Fight - Good fight scene. Like the spreading fire idea - Might want to make it clear if pushing over a bookshelf is the WHOLE line, or just one square. I assumed they were all connected along a line, the GM went with tile-by-tile (which made the battle more cluttered)
ENC 4: Jamah - Our GM skipped the following info "The Twisted Rune is inviting delegations from various groups under pretense of selling information regarding their enemies" and so the entire subplot on this made no sense whatsoever. It may be that the GM was confused because J cannot mention their names or some other info. I would ensure via box text that the players recieve this critical information. Then the rest of the mod will make more sense. In fact, it appears the GM has the following limitation "He cannot volunteer information regarding the Twisted Rune, except to groups travelling to buy information from them" which contradicts the section "if the PCs ask about the crystal", in which case he DOES volunteer info.
- We also lost information about why he wants his brothers' bodies. We vaguely got the idea he wanted to bring them back as undead. Which is silly. - We also had no idea (and apparently the GM cannot either) as to why the undead need info on titles and nobility. - We never had any clue that the TR were undead. No-one mentions this, and since they are a known group with a longish history, perhaps that might have been told to the PCs? - Overall, the organization of this seems poor. Get the critical information into box text, or text that is fired immediately, and organize simialr material in one section (answering the question "what does the TR want with your brothers's bodies" needs to check multiple sections. - Alternatively, make a short RP challenge to work out he will only talk to delegates, followed by a short SC or RP challenge to free him from compulsion or appear like delegates and then let him tell information in large blocks.
ENC 5: Many people sitting - Nice idea, but too many people and no real idea of which are worth talking to. We talked to a couple, got bored and moved on. Other groups ignored them all. They seem neither necessary or very interesting - Scene 5; the slaves cause a problem. It should be made clear that fighting the nobles to free them (probably most groups will want to) will not require a combat encounter. Maybe something like "they do not look very hard to defeat in combat -- you think yourself capable fo disposing of them with little damage". Otherwise the players will meta-game to work out if they have enough time for an optional combat, or feel bad.
ENC 6: - Like the encounter + skill challenge. Seemed like a lot of checks needed, but alowing 2 successes on a hard made a big difference, and rewarded skilled characters spending a standard action. Excellent. - Tough fight for our group. Extra ghost beholder for sixth player was hard as the insubstantial nature plus aura 5 made it hard to take out and getting effectively 3-4 attacks a round. Big auras already scale with number of players, so playing with 4, the beholder(s) will get maybe 3 aura and 1 regular eye attack a turn. With 6 they get 8-10 auras + 2 regular attacks a turn. Nasty ... - .. but not TOO nasty. I liked it! - Afterwards ... What motivation, apart from chaos, is there to let in the sea? I'd suggest that when the Lich dies or the machine is offed, the players feel the compulsion drop and hear the other groups leaving (with their evil, evil ways and their slaves!) then there is a reason to open the sea and/or rescue groups
Overall, this module has good combats, but the bits making it into a story were a little confusing and it never seems really clear why you are doing stuff. After most encounters we got the feeling ... why did we do that? It seems the adventure really SHOULD be "The WeavePasha tells you the TR has a crystal. You make a Streetwise check and find their lair. You fight encounter 6 and get the crystal and then call in the city guard who tidy up" and yet far more is necessary (or optional, or just happens). Making steps clearly needed, adding urgency and providing good motivation for the PCs will make this a good module
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12 months ago ::
Jun 09, 2012 - 9:34AM
#3
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Thanks for the feedback.
Frankly, almost all the roleplay scenes are meant to be optional depending on the interests and time of the players and DM. There's info to be had, but almost none of it is necessary.
Encounter 1: -I'm not sure if the WeavePasha's been statted out anywhere (I don't know his stats if so), but I don't see him as all-powerful. The Twisted Rune is a powerful and experienced group of spellcasters, I don't think it's a stretch for them to be able to counter his divinations. Encounter 4: -The info on why Jamah wants his brothers is in there (to lay them properly to rest). -There are skill checks to allow Jamah to answer single questions unfettered by his restrictions, and the DM is encouraged to let other inventive PC plans work. -The WeavePasha is supposed to tell PCs that the Twisted Rune are undead spellcasters, during the initial meeting. -The TR motivation behind the info gathering is missing/weak, I agree. It should have had a line about them researching family lines to help determine the best key people to dominate.
Encounter 5: -The intended idea of the area is that it's too populated with guards and unfriendly groups to start combat. The slaves are meant to be something PCs come back to after dispatching the TR leadership (and causing confusion when the dominate breaks).
Encounter 6: - Letting in the sea is supposed to be an easy way of potentially killing all the various delegates from Encounter 5, minus a couple the PCs might want to save.
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12 months ago ::
Jun 11, 2012 - 5:26AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Aug 10, 2007
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Frankly, almost all the roleplay scenes are meant to be optional depending on the interests and time of the players and DM.
Correct. Pick and choose the parts of the adventure that work best for the actions and interests of the players.
Of all of the CALI adventures, this one is the best designed for PCs (and DMs) to go "off the rails." Much of the adventure is intended to provide the DM tools to customize the experience for the players at the table.
Those groups who like to explore, investigate, or complete an adventure through roleplay without combat, should find everything they need for a more free-form experience. This adventure works just fine with a straightforward approach, but I suspect many groups will enjoy having the tools to complete the objectives in a creative way (not that there's anything wrong with the "roll initiative" approach).
Dan Anderson @EpicUthrac Living Forgotten Realms Calimshan Writing Director Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Meet me at TotalConfusion: http://www.totalcon.com/RolePlaying.html
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12 months ago ::
Jun 12, 2012 - 5:51PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2006
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Of all of the CALI adventures, this one is the best designed for PCs (and DMs) to go "off the rails." Much of the adventure is intended to provide the DM tools to customize the experience for the players at the table.
This is somewhat troublesome, as our group is one that USUALLY looks to do unusual stuff in modules and we had difficulty doing it in this module. It seemed like any time we tried anything, the response was one of confusion over what the results were, or irrelevance of results. Reading the module, it seems that it doesn't help the GM much -- the organization of information, as I mentioned, was less well laid out than it could have been.
But I think the real issue is that there is no real need to do most of the interaction. We spent a good while talking to people and got nothing more interesting than "head to the admin building" which we found out pretty early on. Our party had no connection to the previous MINIs, so had no interest in the main NPC, or his brothers, and so no reason to interact much with him. The Twisted Rune delegates subplot seemed very unconnected with anything -- why are there 5 rooms full of people waiting to talk to the TR? Not really sure, but even if we are sure, what should we do? It seems very odd to be infiltrating an enemy's lair, and then to stop and start chatting to random people. And then letting in the sea to drown people? Also a pretty random thing to do. There's only one exit and it's totally clear we an control it, so no reason to drown people except for randomness. We did it as a group, but only because of a vague feeling that we were missing the point ....
I've seen a lot of adventures like this both in D&D and other systems (CoC in particular) where lots of detailed opportunities for RP are set up, but they actuall make no difference. You can talk as much as you like to whoever you want, but you can achieve EXACTLY the same results by first going to the bad guy, then killing him and sorting out the mess. Subplot with Jamah's brothers? Just ask him afterwards. Delegates? Chat to the friendlies and interrogate the prisoners afterwards. There just isn't a motivation or discernable result from the RP. It strongly *needs* to be integrated into the mod, not just something the PCs do to pass time. A little of that is not bad, but when all the RP is pretty much irrelevant, it's not so good.
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11 months ago ::
Aug 02, 2012 - 1:45PM
#6
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This adventure was probably OK, but having just played the other two, I think it suffered by comparison.
I have to second that.
In itself it's a nice adventure and I like it, but IMHO it should have been the first of the series. It just felt so much "less" after what was done in the first two parts. First the PCs slay a deity or a deity's remnant, then they fight a gargantuan dracolich and in the "grand final" it's a lich with his ghost beholder pet? Really? That would be a nice warm-up before moving on the slay deities and gargantuan undead horrors, but as the final part it just seems like a demotion. As if you had to win the superbowl in each of the first two parts and then are send back to win a game of highschool football.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 04, 2012 - 5:51AM
#7
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In all fairness, that "deity" is a much weakened demon lord, not an actual deity
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10 months ago ::
Aug 04, 2012 - 9:19AM
#8
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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They can be played in any order - so go ahead and play this one first, then range out from there.
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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10 months ago ::
Aug 05, 2012 - 4:20AM
#9
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In all fairness, that "deity" is a much weakened demon lord, not an actual deity 
Well, I admit that I was a little bit confused about what my players where fighting except that it was awesome. From the text in the adventure I thought it a demonlord just recovering from imprissonment, but from the handout I got that it was supposed to actually be Selvetarm (which confused me more since he's supposed to be dead not imprisoned)
They can be played in any order - so go ahead and play this one first, then range out from there.
In hindsight I should have done that and will start with 4-3 if I ever run the series again. But without knowing the adventures in advance I think it comes naturally to most people to run them "in order".
It's just that after having a huge blob of darkness transorm into a spider demon (I used a black baloon and my Bebilith miniature) and then even having the opportunity to put the gargantuan blue dragon mini on the mat and telling the players that "Yes, that IS his actualy size" ending it all with a lich and a ghost beholder was a little underwhelming. They liked the adventure very much and enjoyed the investigation but they just thought that it would lead them to something more spectacular on the battle mat at the end
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10 months ago ::
Aug 09, 2012 - 2:03AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Apr 14, 2010
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Yeah, not the most clear adventure, story-wise. Fun enough fights though. The Good
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- The Twisted Rune as main bad guys, since they're awe-inspiringly evil and I remember them from playing Baldur's Gate 2 way back when.
- Threatening combats that are a good test of paragon PC's capabilities.
The Bad
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- Being asked to retrieve the shard, but then getting sent to find the disappeared Jamah. He is seemingly totally unrelated to the shard, and my PC has no reason to like him because he already tried to betray our pal Al-Amar at the end of the Battlecloak saga.
- Running around questioning lots of people, but finding the trail totally cold except for one seemingly unrelated rumor about a haunting in an abandoned library. Why does my character have any reason whatsoever to pursue that?
- Getting Jamah to take us to the Twisted Rune to be inducted, but when he introduces us to the head honcho we get attacked by him and his two pet beholders.
- Having to spend standard actions to deacticate the phylactery. Needing 6-12 standard action skill checks (not taking failures or action points into account) means the party loses at least one full round of attacks, which really drags the combat on. This was also my biggest complaint about ADCP4-2. I would rather see a mechanic where you can spend a minor action to beat the hard DC, a move to beat the moderate DC and a standard to beat the easy DC.
The Ugly
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- I have no idea what the deal was with the bloodlines. One player even thought that it might have something to do with Al-Amar's Battlecloak, since that would only work on people from his bloodline. But no follow-up on that.
- At one point in the investigation we heard something about a Jafar and Kumor or something, and that Jamah was seen leaving the tavern with a stormsoul genasi. But who they all were is still a mystery to me.
- I absolutely detest insubstantial monsters, especially when the strikers aren't prepared for them. Luckily our Avenger had a ki focus that let him hit the Beholders as if they didn't have insubstantial and he did radiant damage, so he made short work of them. But I'm not a fan of insubstantial elites.
I'm sorry if I come over as a negative Nancy in my feedback. I'm sure the intentions were good and if the information for the DM is laid out a little clearer, this can be a great adventure.
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