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Switch to Forum Live View Slowdown of Play Numbers
1 year ago  ::  Mar 27, 2012 - 5:12AM #1
Uthrac
Date Joined: Aug 10, 2007
Posts: 1,556
With D&D Next off on the horizon somewhere, I wanted to share some observations from our local area about why LFR play has slowed down over the past year. This is not a complaint, rather intended to inform decisions as campaign administration makes decisions about what will happen "Next."

First, 95% of what I see players complaining about on the message boards has had little impact on play in our area. Item rarity and errata are good examples of this.

The largest factors I've seen affect our community is the significant drop-off of veteran players. In the first few years of LFR, we had veteran players coming back week after week to DM, fill tables, and keep excitement high. Our players now are whittled down to new players who are just discovering the campaign.

I attribute this to three significant factors: the ability to create higher-level PCs, the widening of level bands, and the shortage of new adventures released for play.

During the first two years of a campaign, a new book would be released and veterans would immediately identify awesome builds and unique characters they wanted to try. They made a first level character, and they played. This kept a healthy number of low-level tables and entry points for new players. Key builds often hit their sweet-spot at higher levels. Now, if a player has a neat idea for a new PC, they don't make a 1st level PC; they make the PC at that "sweet spot" to play. Bypassing these levels mean that instead of veteran players requesting lower-level adventures so they can play their "new build," they can "jump in" to whatever is being offered in any given week. This has greatly affected replaying adventures, providing fewer opportunities for new players.

Widening the level bands exaserbates this problem. While during the first years, the veterans tried to keep at least one PC in each level band - playing more in order to do so - the flexibility has reduced the need so that each player only needs 2-3 PCs to have a reasonable chance of playing. This compounds the previous problem, in that veteran players are not replaying games, thus creating more play experiences for new players.

Finally, the shortage of new adventures has all but killed veteran play. Since players no longer feel the need to replay lower-level adventures to level up characters (either to reach the "sweet spot" or to have a character available for each level band), the only draw for them is to play something new. The veterans in our area are also active in convention play, so there isn't much drawing them to weekly game days.

So, that's what I've come to observe in our area. While there has been some burnout and/or frustration for a few players, that will happen in Year 4 of any campaign. Removing the things that brought players back week after week to play have definitely reduced our numbers. Something to consider when looking at what comes Next.  
Dan Anderson
@EpicUthrac
Living Forgotten Realms Calimshan Writing Director
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director

Meet me at TotalConfusion:
http://www.totalcon.com/RolePlaying.html
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 27, 2012 - 6:09AM #2
dkay807
Date Joined: Feb 7, 2007
Posts: 1,114
Very keen observations, Dan! I absolutely agree. The Boston area weekly game day went from 4 tables with waiting lists to barely enough for one table a week.

A resounding +1 from me.
Dave Kay
LFR Writing Director Retiree
dkay807 [at] yahoo [dot] com
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 27, 2012 - 6:40AM #3
Madfox11
  • LFR Global Admin
Date Joined: Dec 2, 2005
Posts: 4,446
Of course, changing the rules halfway will have some impact on play numbers. Neither of these changes though has been made lightly (and are also partially the result of a change of scope with the addition of the Encounters and Lair Assault programs). It was either these changes, or a complete collapse and burnout of the people necessary to get the adventures in a playable format to the players. I am not entirely sure it is as cut-and-dry as you make it out to be. Just because two things happen more or less on the same time does not mean they are are related even if they appear to be

For example, I remember seeing a similar drop in veteran players in LG in my area (both the Netherlands and the UK) after 4 years without any significant change to the campaign structure. Talking with these veteran players showed me that after 4 years of fairly intensive convention gaming, their priorities and preferences had changed often without realizing that was the case. The hope is that you draw in new players with the same enthausiasm and skill as the previous set of veteran players, but any well established campaign will have some trouble drawing in new players. Years of background information will always scare away some people, while, more often than not, it is required to keep the driving players in. Maybe the lesson is that no campaign should last more than 4 years regardless of editions?
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 27, 2012 - 6:49AM #4
JohnduBois
Date Joined: May 29, 2004
Posts: 956

Mar 27, 2012 -- 6:40AM, Madfox11 wrote:

Of course, changing the rules halfway will have some impact on play numbers. Neither of these changes though has been made lightly (and are also partially the result of a change of scope with the addition of the Encounters and Lair Assault programs). It was either these changes, or a complete collapse and burnout of the people necessary to get the adventures in a playable format to the players. I am not entirely sure it is as cut-and-dry as you make it out to be. Just because two things happen more or less on the same time does not mean they are are related even if they appear to be

For example, I remember seeing a similar drop in veteran players in LG in my area (both the Netherlands and the UK) after 4 years without any significant change to the campaign structure. Talking with these veteran players showed me that after 4 years of fairly intensive convention gaming, their priorities and preferences had changed often without realizing that was the case. The hope is that you draw in new players with the same enthausiasm and skill as the previous set of veteran players, but any well established campaign will have some trouble drawing in new players. Years of background information will always scare away some people, while, more often than not, it is required to keep the driving players in. Maybe the lesson is that no campaign should last more than 4 years regardless of editions?



Or perhaps that there should be transitions in storyline every so often to keep the content fresh so that (a) the veteran players don't feel like it's the same old thing, and (b) the potential new players aren't scared off by years of established events.  

John du Bois
Living Forgotten Realms Writing Director, Netheril story area

Follow me on The Twitter: @JohnduBois
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 27, 2012 - 6:55AM #5
Madfox11
  • LFR Global Admin
Date Joined: Dec 2, 2005
Posts: 4,446

Mar 27, 2012 -- 6:49AM, JohnduBois wrote:

Or perhaps that there should be transitions in storyline every so often to keep the content fresh so that (a) the veteran players don't feel like it's the same old thing, and (b) the potential new players aren't scared off by years of established events.  


Without the veteran players starting with new characters there still is the baggage of the previous years. Of course, even this is not as clearcut as I make it out to be. Players rarely join at just the start, they slowly trickly in and few players will want to join something that will be finished within a year

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1 year ago  ::  Mar 27, 2012 - 7:03AM #6
Uthrac
Date Joined: Aug 10, 2007
Posts: 1,556
Oh, each area is different and will react differently to different changes. (Lots of stories abound about areas who have dissolved due to frustration with constant errata updates - though that has had little impact in our area.)

At a New England convention last month, we had our best turnout - by far - in four years. There were lots of players (veterans) who came back to play LFR (we offered lots of new content). Although the convention numbers are up (way up!), the weekly game days are way down. In talking with players about why they play less, the reasons given over and over again are that they like to play new stuff, and there's no incentive/reason to replay adventures they have already played. 

You're probably right that no campaign should last more than 4 years, period.  

And I don't think LFR necessarily made the wrong decisions making these changes when they did - it certainly improved accessibility to new players at the time. (It sure was handy being able to seat new players at an H2 or H3 table if that was all that was offered in a given week!)

Looking forward, an issue to grapple with (as all campaign do) is simply:
How do we maintain a high level of involvement and engagement from the core-veteran players while still providing a campaign that is consistently accessible to new players?

One positive take-away I've noted is the "trilogy release" format. Players can sit down and enjoy a major quest over several consecutive (or near-consecutive) sessions, rather than having to "reach the next level band to continue a quest" or "waiting years for the next chapter in the quest to be released, and hope they haven't leveled-out." I've seen many players excited about making a new character that fits into a particular region/story area, because they know that there is enough content (at least 3 adventures) to make their character choices worthwhile in immersing themselves in that region.  
Dan Anderson
@EpicUthrac
Living Forgotten Realms Calimshan Writing Director
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director

Meet me at TotalConfusion:
http://www.totalcon.com/RolePlaying.html
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 27, 2012 - 7:24AM #7
tirianmal
Date Joined: Oct 26, 2008
Posts: 1,064
I'm in the same area as Uthrac so I've seen the same things. 

I don't know how much of it can be attributed to a single cause, I don't have solid numbers or data for it, however if I had to guess I too would guess that content and the lack thereof is what has caused our game day numbers to drop precipitously.

I want to add that it wasn't just player numbers that were down. We also began running out of DMs. A lot of the veteran DMs just stopped signing up. I can't say for certain that one drove the other, but without DMs we couldn't run games, and without games we couldn't entice new players into the game day. In the end, I think it was a vicious cycle and the game day is down to one table (maybe) a week, from 4 a week at its peak.

And I don't have a single cause for why the DMs stopped signing up, but I do know why certain DMs stopped coming. And the reasons varied from issues with the location (in a game store), to burnout with the system, to disenchantment with LFR, to personal reasons. But each DM I spoke to had different reasons/causes for not DMing, and I'm sure some of them had reasons that they didn't reveal to me. So as I said, I don't think there was a single overriding reason for the DMs not coming back.

I've seen some energy in the players of late, especially amongst veteran LFR players, driven by some of the new content and the excitement of the BIs. But I don't know if that'll last.
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 27, 2012 - 7:38AM #8
Thanlis
Date Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Posts: 837
This is not at all something the globals can control, so I want to explicitly note that I'm not pointing fingers, but anyone interested in how to sustain a Living Campaign ought to read the Paizo Midyear Report of the Pathfinder Society. The stuff they're doing costs money; having a staffer whose job it is to write that kind of report costs money. The globals can't compete with that on their own. But that's what a well-supported Living Campaign looks like.

I noticed the Venture Captain/Lieutenant program in particular. It's worth clicking through to read about it -- they have specific jobs and responsibilities, and they get rewards. I think it's brilliant to make sure the regional coordinators are running games on a regular basis and to make sure they're working with the local game stores. This is how you build a support network. 

Also of note: GM 101 seminars. That's awesome.  
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 27, 2012 - 7:46AM #9
Keithric
  • Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined: Aug 19, 2007
Posts: 5,149
From my perspective, it was almost entirely shortage of new adventures. Sure, other factors also impacted, but it started with folks not feeling a need to push to show up to see the new shiny, and snowballed down never recovering.

P.S. Paizo's PDF of everything they make is a pretty awesome reward. 
Keith Richmond
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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1 year ago  ::  Mar 27, 2012 - 7:57AM #10
Thanlis
Date Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Posts: 837

Mar 27, 2012 -- 7:46AM, Keithric wrote:

P.S. Paizo's PDF of everything they make is a pretty awesome reward. 




Yep. And it's reasonable payoff for making sure all those tracking sheets get filed. They solve the problem of reporting by giving someone a reason to make sure the reporting happens.

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