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Mar 22, 2012 -- 7:27AM, Ghostrider wrote:

Maybe I've had bad luck with DMs but background/race/themes have never been a bane or boon in any LFR adventure I've run.

I played a Shadar-Kai in the Neth BI.   A wizard from Thay.   A Revenent in Eltugard.   A Pack Outcast.  Drow from Bregan D'aerthe.

No character choice has ever changed the story of a module I've ran.

The big difference being that, in all those cases, the background/race/theme would normally have a negative impact on the story (undead in Elturgard, shadow creature working with the Harpers), which is easy for a DM to hand-wave without issue. (It can hurt the sense of immersion in the story to have the Harper contact just shrug and assume the PC shadar-kai is trustworthy, but it doesn't derail the adventure or cause the player to feel picked on.)

As pointed out by other posters, at least two of the three themes in the Dragon article should arguably include positive impacts on WATE stories or even stories in nearby areas connected to Waterdeep (and there are even powers/features, such as the level 5 feature of the Masked Lord theme, that overtly reference such impacts). It's a lot more irritating for a player when a DM hand-waves what should be a positive impact because the DM is unfamiliar with the Realms or otherwise isn't sure exactly what that impact should be, and there's no guidance for her because the adventure is old, being retired in two months anyway, and it's just not worth the effort to add that guidance.

With that said, the Masked Lord theme is really the most problematic. The Blackstaff Apprentice theme might still be workable if re-flavored to be a wizard who discovered and studied old lore from the pre-Spellplague Blackstaff Tower rather than being a direct apprentice of the vanished Vajra, and the Clone of Halaster reflavored to someone merely 'influenced' by the lingering magic of the Mad Mage without necessarily being his direct clone. This opens the question, though, as to what extent it's allowable or even desirable for the campaign staff to change published material to 'fit' the campaign. (Does that mean the campaign staff should also find time to 'reflavor' the Book of Vile Darkness themes to make them work in the campaign as well, for instance?)

Banning the themes would be a blunt instrument, but it would serve the interests of the living campaign much more than including them would.

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Pauper

Mar 22, 2012 -- 10:21AM, Ghostrider wrote:

As  Mommy_was_an_Orc pointed out there are other themes that do similar things.  I'm sure we can point out other themes that should also impact positvely (Harpers, Purple Dragon Knight, etc). I personally don't see any issues with the Themes as written (of course I dont have the inside info that Keith does).

I also don't have any inside info, but I can tell you that the Harper theme, for instance, works with LFR because there is campaign support for the theme -- there's a meta-org for them, there are entire adventure story lines with specific 'here's what you do' info for the DM if a PC is a Harper, etc. Likewise witih the Purple Dragon Knight theme and CORM mods.

There is no WATE module that contains text that tells the DM what to do if one of the PCs is secretly a Masked Lord.

Spoiler: Show

That level 5 Masked Lord theme power doesnt state you can take your 5 friends with you for example.

Really? Really?! "Here's a safehouse for you, friend of Waterdeep. But your buddies have to wait outside." Talk about a 'we had to destroy the village in order to save it' moment...

As a DM I'd love to have characters with these themes in my Wate mods.   It's yet another way we can reinforce people getting into the role-playing aspects of their characters.   I think we need to discuss more ways including these than excluding them.

There are plenty of ways to encourage role-playing in LFR without taking a pick-axe to an entire story area. For instance, as Keith points out, there are numerous minor noble families in Waterdeep with basically zero political influence but with enough social prestige that the Noble theme from the Neverwinter Campaign Setting still works in existing WATE modules.

These themes actively challenge the design presumptions of an entire LFR story area. That's more important than including three new 'toys' for PCs to play with. And trying to 'tweak' the themes to make them more usable opens a can of worms that the campaign staff really shouldn't want to open.

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Pauper

Mar 22, 2012 -- 10:52AM, Pauper wrote:

 Likewise witih the Purple Dragon Knight theme and CORM mods.

. . . that contains text that tells the DM what to do if one of the PCs is secretly a Masked Lord.

(1) For clarity, the Purple Dragon is a theme - Purple Dragon Knight is a paragon path. There's nothing in the CORM mods that tells you what to do if the PC has the Purple Dragon theme, since the theme article came out waaaay after the CORM adventures.

(2) That being said, the DM is absolutely empowered to provide cookies to Purple Dragons in Cormyr adventures. I'd expect the DM to "adjust the adventure to make it fun" for PCs with Waterdeep themes who are adventuring in Waterdeep.

(3) That being siad, to Ghostrider's point, I'd expect the DM to incorportate his PC choices in a fun way when running adventures where his choices should make a difference. (For example, this is a case where the player is having less fun because their perceived disadvantage is being ignored.)

Of course, all of this is best handled by the table DM. 

Mar 22, 2012 -- 11:37AM, Uthrac wrote:

Theme aren't the only problem with the article when it comes to LFR . . .

DM: You are summoned by the Blackstaff to do a mission.
PC: I thought he went missing?
DM: Crap. I have all these scenes with the Blackstaff in the adventure.

DM: You are summoned by a masked lord to do this special quest.
PC: I don't trust him. He's probably a doppleganger.
DM: What? Where'd you get that idea?
PC: It's in Dragon.

It seems like a lot of potential intrigue that has had months of work put into it could be in conflict with, and not compatible with, the claims in this article.

DISCLAIMER: I've not read, playtested, or been in any other way involved with the Waterdeep story area, so any of my thoughts are pure speculation.

 

Except that particular issue isn't limited to this article as LFR is now a non-canon campaign. Any future FR article or novel could contradict an LFR adventure, and it'll just require some cognitive dissonance on the part of the players and DM. For example, from what I've seen of the excerpts from Godborn, I'm pretty sure at some point it's going to contradict the Netheril adventures - but that's part of how the campaign structure is set up right now. The only alternative is not to use any of the cool Realms-specific NPCs or locations, and if we do that, we might as well stop calling this a Forgotten Realms campaign...

Mar 22, 2012 -- 12:15PM, Uthrac wrote:

Mar 22, 2012 -- 12:12PM, JohnduBois wrote:

we might as well stop calling this a Forgotten Realms campaign...

So when is Living JohnduBois premiering?

Cuz I want to play! 

 

Living JohnduBois will be premiering with the release of D&D Next. Initial participation will only be open to those who pledge to the Kickstarter campaign (details coming soon), with each adventure becoming available for general public purchase six hours after they're sent to Kickstarters. Pledging to the Living JohnduBois Kickstarter will also be the only way to access promotional races unique to the campaign and not appearing anywhere in the D&D Next core rules, including elf, dwarf, and human.