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1 year ago ::
Jan 23, 2012 - 8:58AM
#41
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- Dragon Slayer
- If only he would apply himself
- Dammit Jim, this is Star Trek, not D&D!
Date Joined:
Jan 31, 2006
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John du Bois - you're my hero. Best of the articles so far.
www.rovingbandofmisfits.com/2012/01/what...
It's the honey badgers, isn't it? Everyone always loves the honey badgers...
In all seriousness, thanks. I don't find the time to blog often, so I'm glad it's being received well by at least one person. I strongly suspect, though, after the next couple days, I'll drop to third (not that I've seen anything, just that Teos and Tracy tend to produce strong, thought-provoking content) 
Very kind, John. I hope you find my article, Living Honey Badgers, to be to your liking...
Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips! Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).
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1 year ago ::
Jan 23, 2012 - 9:01PM
#42
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Date Joined:
May 23, 2005
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Treasure should always be random unless purchased.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 24, 2012 - 8:03AM
#43
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Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2009
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Treasure should always be selected by the player. Bundle X is one of the best innovations LFR has made since it's inception. Benefits?
- Greater satisfaction and immersion of player into his character, both mechanically and narritively
- Players can reasonably play from a much broader list of classes. As new character classes such as the assassin, runepriest, ardent, etc... are released and magic items are designed specifically for these characters, players can earn these items without authors trying to sprinkle them in to new modules and offer them, when most parties will be completely disinterested
- Reduces incentive to metagame and cherry pick modules with ideal treasure bundles
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1 year ago ::
Jan 24, 2012 - 12:14PM
#44
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2006
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I'm in the "treasure should be random" camp. I like the original idea of 4e that items should not define a character. I would like to get rid of the + items system entirely and move to intrinsics. Then there is no actual NEED to have any items. An epic character can buy a common item and use it. End of the need to have items for all classes.
Without that ability, we're kind of trapped with allowing "generic +X items" as JRed suggests
Perhaps overly-aggresively, I have little sympathy for specific builds that need an effect like "makes wielder count as bloodied" to be playable; builds like that, charge-builds and crit-builds are not in my view a thing we should encourage. The generic rewards might be unusual and allowed only by things like specials and battle interactives
One thought is that each mod has a list of stuff that can be picked up, limited by one per mod, with most of them minor use / fun. bags of holding, spectacles of reading. Things that are fun and less combat based would be plentiful. Also in the mod might be one or maybe two specific items, but picking those would limit your future ability to pick items.
Basically, allow relatively easy choice of fun stuff, and reserve limits for more combat-focused items.
Or, maybe try a system simialr to the way powers work. Every level allows you either a new bundle choice of a combat-focused or utility item.
It would be great to get to a system where people can choose fun items that add to chaarcterization, roleplay and fun and not feel that they have lost access to "things they need to have to be competitive"
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1 year ago ::
Jan 24, 2012 - 12:26PM
#45
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- Dragon Slayer
- If only he would apply himself
- Dammit Jim, this is Star Trek, not D&D!
Date Joined:
Jan 31, 2006
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Perhaps overly-aggresively, I have little sympathy for specific builds that need an effect like "makes wielder count as bloodied" to be playable; builds like that, charge-builds and crit-builds are not in my view a thing we should encourage.
Despite my having such a PC (needs certain rods to really function), I completely agree. That's the rub of rules - they have a strong impact on how the game is played. I don't think we'll ever have a good way to compare Ashes of Athas with LFR in terms of that respect - in AoA you simply can't build around items because you know you will never get an item pick. Does that make the game better? I'm not sure it is possible to tell, though I tend to think so. It is clear many feel the opposite way (and have said so on this group often in the past).
I would guess that D&D Next will de-emphasize magic. That was a 4E design bit that got shoved aside and I think some designers regret it. If magic is less important, or at least more like AD&D, then random will likely work better. If the "expected" becomes "a boon", then it frees up organized play to provide a more interesting mechanic for treasure rather than placing equity at the forefront. For example, providing a choice of items that are largely flavor with a very limited mechanic. Everyone gets something, but it is more about story than power. Experimenting in Ashes of Athas we've often found that is easier said than done. Wording and item choice really matters or everyone chooses the clearly awesome option and you lose that story. Too much choice and people start optimizing/building. Too little flavor and they just focus mechanically. It is hard work, but I could see it being easier in D&D Next.
By the way, my post finally went up on the Misfits site. I'm always eager to see what everyone would add and subtract to what I wrote!
Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips! Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).
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1 year ago ::
Jan 24, 2012 - 4:50PM
#46
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Date Joined:
Oct 25, 2007
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Alpha- you make it sound like not picking items reduces people's attempts at optimization. It doesn't. In fact, people tend to pore over the smaller number of choices that they do have and play classes and concepts that don't need items to work. Hell, the people i've played with in AoA tend, if anything, to be more optimized in class, race and feats.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 24, 2012 - 7:47PM
#47
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2007
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I firmly agree that treasure should rarely - if ever - be tailored to the PCs. Major quest rewards would most likely grant an item that directly benefits a player, but where's the harm in killing the duergar clerics and warriors and finding... say it with me.... duargar-sized armor? I miss those days from 2e. Truth be told, I'd love to see magic items play a larger role in character presence; reducing the number and type of those items would be a nice touch.
Writing Director, Abolethic Sovereignty storyline Spoiler:
Show
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1 year ago ::
Jan 24, 2012 - 8:34PM
#48
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Date Joined:
May 23, 2005
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Lets be honest. How realistic is it that the 1000 yr old mummies tomb just HAPPENS to have the exact magic item you want in it. Man that ruler saw the future and stocked his tomb just for you before he was mummified.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 24, 2012 - 9:04PM
#49
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- Dragon Slayer
- If only he would apply himself
- Dammit Jim, this is Star Trek, not D&D!
Date Joined:
Jan 31, 2006
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Alpha- you make it sound like not picking items reduces people's attempts at optimization. It doesn't. In fact, people tend to pore over the smaller number of choices that they do have and play classes and concepts that don't need items to work. Hell, the people i've played with in AoA tend, if anything, to be more optimized in class, race and feats.
Our experience shows otherwise, though we could of course be wrong (there is only so much data we can gather). Playtesters that do very well with same level LFR mods generally have a much tougher time with Ashes of Athas. We have pretty much realized we can never do a level+3 encounter, for example, because it is too hard. The lack of magic and Dragon really cut down on the interactions. Now, sure, you can make crazy cheese without those. And yeah, some people will optimize a brown paper bag (and I'm totally ok with that - I like to optimize as well), but overall we feel it creates more sanity across tables and more of a story-driven experience. It isn't perfect and it isn't the only way, just to be clear, but it is my current preference. This is largely due to how magic works in 4E. I was a lot less concerned in LG, because the cheese wasn't so often around magic and magic still felt a bit interesting to me (largely because access was so restricted).
Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips! Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).
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1 year ago ::
Jan 25, 2012 - 7:34AM
#50
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Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2009
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Perhaps overly-aggresively, I have little sympathy for specific builds that need an effect like "makes wielder count as bloodied" to be playable; builds like that, charge-builds and crit-builds are not in my view a thing we should encourage. The generic rewards might be unusual and allowed only by things like specials and battle interactives.
These aren't even the problem. I'm talking about things like monks and assassins. These are characters who probably really need a ki focus, because it's basic to their class. There are armors for wardens to use when they are in guardian form, and wardens with a guardian form aren't niche builds - they are, well, wardens. Lots of items only affect barbarians when raging, or are designed to benefit a warlock's curse, or can use power points, or allow bards access to both implement and weapon attacks without spending two minor actions switching items.
These aren't gamey, niche builds that require a character to count as bloodied or always do cold damage or something really goofy. They are items that enhance the basic functionality of your class. LFR modules can either include Bundle X, or they can include 15-20 options each mod so that you have about a 1 in 3 chance of getting something your class can use (assuming the mod doesn't predate your class, which is going to be a very likely situation for Year 1 modules) or they can go back to the pre-bundle X solution. Vicious weapon+2 doesn't help you? Screw you, reroll as a real class or go read the spoiler list and cherry pick your modules.
By the way, the other problem with "random" treasures is that everyone in organized play is wandering around with the exact same magic items. That's a unique and flavorful experience if I've ever seen one.
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