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2 years ago ::
Sep 20, 2011 - 1:42AM
#231
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Experience has shown that it is MUCH easier to tell people don't use x, than don't use a, b, e and h, but not c, d, f and g.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 20, 2011 - 6:03AM
#232
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Date Joined:
Mar 19, 2010
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Experience has shown that it is MUCH easier to tell people don't use x, than don't use a, b, e and h, but not c, d, f and g.
Agreed, however it merits consideration. If after some thought no suitable solution can be found then that's the way it goes. The darksun themes are generally underpowered options as is when compared to the more recent themes, and just allow for more options.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 20, 2011 - 6:20AM
#233
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Date Joined:
Mar 17, 2005
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Not that its a great arguement for whether LFR decides to do something or not, it is somewhat nice to leave a few things for Living Dark Sun that you can't get in LFR.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 20, 2011 - 10:07AM
#234
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Date Joined:
Oct 25, 2007
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Not that its a great arguement for whether LFR decides to do something or not, it is somewhat nice to leave a few things for Living Dark Sun that you can't get in LFR.
I see what you mean, but I think that egg was broken when LFR introduced themes due to WoTC introducing them outside of Darksun. Now it's just an issue of what themes are allowed, and LFR already allows virtually everything darksun except themes, backgrounds, and things mentionning defiling and preserving. Only the Noble Adept is really powerful from darksun, and that is the only theme people have complained about in AoA. Even Noble Adept isn't as strong as some of the newer ones, so it's really just a flavor issue.
And escaped slave, gladiator, primal guardian, wilder etc., all could easily be from FR.
For example, you could be an escaped gladiator from Hillsfar or Calisham. Hillsfar was infamous for it's throwing all non-humans into the ring at one point, and Calisham is basically FR's little touch of Darksun in an otherwise green world.
The only two themes that wouldn't fit FR are Templar and Veiled Alliance as those reference organizations. Even things like Elemental Priest fits primitive tribes, and basically it is just a touch of shaman as a theme
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2 years ago ::
Sep 20, 2011 - 6:14PM
#235
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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I'm not bothered much by the fact that the themes have a Dark Sun flavor--to me, once you allow a thri-kreen warlock with a sorcerer-king pact, that ship has sailed. (Yes, there exist thri-kreen in the Realms, but most players do not know that; Yes, you could reflavor the sorcerer-king pact, but most players are unlikely to.)
However, I think the different format of the Dark Sun themes is problematic. If allowed, my cynical side says that a certain number of players will believe (or perhaps just "believe") that they get the 5th and 10th level powers of the Dark Sun themes for free, because current themes give free abilities at those levels.
You also run into issues of how to handle Essentials classes who can't power-swap for encounter/daily powers. (It wouldn't surprise me to run into, say, a Hunter who trades his 5th level Reactive Shift for a 5th level daily power from a Dark Sun theme.)
As for as Noble Adept not being as strong as some of the newer ones, I would consider it highly competitive with the top tier themes at 10th level (comparing its 1st level ability alone vs. another theme's 1st/5th/10th level abilities), and arguably the strongest theme at 1st level.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 21, 2011 - 7:15AM
#236
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Date Joined:
May 29, 2001
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I'm going to agree with the 'bright line' approach.
If you're into RP enough to want a particular background for your character, you're probably motivated enough to re-flavor one of the existing allowed themes for your use (so you'll have the Mercenary theme, with the explanation that you learned your tricks in the arena and now use them for profit). Otherwise, just stick to the stuff that doesn't say 'Dark Sun'.
--
Pauper
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2 years ago ::
Sep 21, 2011 - 7:51AM
#237
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Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2009
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We're getting ready to run the CALI series of modules locally, with 3-1 going off on Saturday. I think it's sad that Escaped Slave isn't allowed, because it's so rich in story for these modules.
I understand Madfox1's point - it's easier to say "No Theme's from Dark Sun" then spell out which ones aren't allowed. However, as bggibons points out, there's already tons of Dark Sun material allowed in LFR. We also have warforged (no, really), artificers and sibilant shards allowed from Eberron without allowing the Mark of X feats, and that's worked well for some time now.
As for misunderstanding the rules on power swaps, or feigning ignorance for a cheesy benefit, that's not exactly unique to the DS themes. Someone could easily think the Neverwinter themes give bonus utilities, for example, rather than additional utility choices.
Likewise, just because Noble Adept is a powerful option doesn't mean it should be specifically disallowed. We don't disallow Combat Commander, Dice of Auspicious Fortune, forced movement into and out of Walls of Fire, etc... Any exception made for Noble Adept should be based on the setting, not the power level.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 21, 2011 - 10:10AM
#238
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Date Joined:
May 29, 2001
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We're getting ready to run the CALI series of modules locally, with 3-1 going off on Saturday. I think it's sad that Escaped Slave isn't allowed, because it's so rich in story for these modules.
I see your point, but if all you want is the background, then there's already an Escaped Slave background available for use in LFR -- all the theme does is give additional powers and benefits.
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Pauper
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2 years ago ::
Sep 22, 2011 - 10:55AM
#239
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2004
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We're getting ready to run the CALI series of modules locally, with 3-1 going off on Saturday. I think it's sad that Escaped Slave isn't allowed, because it's so rich in story for these modules.
I see your point, but if all you want is the background, then there's already an Escaped Slave background available for use in LFR -- all the theme does is give additional powers and benefits.
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Pauper
That is the point, though. Nobody ever just wants something for the background. They want the mechanical benefits. If all they wanted was a background, they would simply state that their character was an escaped slave, a noble, or ex-gladiator. Plot and history do not require mechanics. Players want mechanics so they can be a little more buff, a little more optimized, or maybe just because they want to roll dice in a new and different way.
-SYB
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2 years ago ::
Sep 22, 2011 - 11:24AM
#240
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Date Joined:
May 29, 2001
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That is the point, though. Nobody ever just wants something for the background. They want the mechanical benefits. If all they wanted was a background, they would simply state that their character was an escaped slave, a noble, or ex-gladiator. Plot and history do not require mechanics. Players want mechanics so they can be a little more buff, a little more optimized, or maybe just because they want to roll dice in a new and different way.
Exactly.
I'm taking JRedGiant1 at his word that he (or his players) really would like the flavor benefits of the themes, and pointing out that the existing background elements do just as well. Alternately, as you note, you could simply come up with your own backstory with no mechanical impact whatsoever which is every bit as flavorful (if not more so) than the ones provided by WotC.
On the other hand, you seem to be arguing that, 'no, what we really want are more options to make the mind-numbing experience of playing LFR with 1st level characters to be less painful,' and that's fine too. My answer to that is, 'power creep is a genie that can't be put back in the bottle' and explain that more options do not always equal more fun. In other words, I disagree with your assertion, but at least I'm able to disagree with it directly.
The thing I can't stand is when people who want options for the optimization value they provide throw things like 'Stormwind Fallacy' and such around, trying to make people believe that they're in it for the flavor and fluff. Since you're not interacting with a real argument in this case, you don't have any real counter-arguments and thus don't actually get anywhere by having that conversation.
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Pauper
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