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Switch to Forum Live View Seeker|Avenger with Distant Vengeance in LFR
2 years ago  ::  Jul 07, 2011 - 3:22AM #41
Madfox11
  • LFR Global Admin
Date Joined: Dec 2, 2005
Posts: 4,440
[Moderator]Play nice people. Besides, this is not the location to extensively rehash old debates about rule mechanics. The OP got his answer: it is still open to debate, and arguments for why has been provided.[/Moderator]
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 07, 2011 - 8:45AM #42
Jay_Ibero_911
Date Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 5,233
Really, if you want the effect of a distant vengeance avenger/seeker without the rules debates, make a half-elf Avenger with seeker dilettante and a few power swaps. Here's a sample skeleton build for 11th level:
Spoiler: Show
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 11
Half-Elf, Avenger, Half-Elf Polymath
Avenger's Censure: Censure of Pursuit
Half elf Power Selection: Dilettante

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 16, Dex 18, Int 9, Wis 22, Cha 11.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 13, Dex 15, Int 8, Wis 17, Cha 10.


AC: 25 Fort: 22 Reflex: 23 Will: 26
HP: 90 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 22

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +9, Nature +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +9, Arcana +4, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +7, Dungeoneering +11, Endurance +8, Heal +11, History +4, Insight +13, Intimidate +5, Perception +11, Stealth +9, Streetwise +5, Thievery +9, Athletics +5

FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Greatbow)
Level 2: Bow Expertise
Level 4: Distant Vengeance
Level 6: Primal Sharpshooter
Level 8: Action Surge (retrained to Versatile Master at Level 11)
Level 11: Painful Oath

POWERS
Channel Divinity: Divine Guidance
Dilettante: Biting Swarm
Primal Sharpshooter: Grappling Spirits

ITEMS
Vicious Greatbow +3, Magic Githweave Armor +3, Safewing Amulet +3
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


Half-Elf Polymath will let you pick up a ranger at-will that you can swap for the hunter's clever shot with the archery master feat at 16th so you can have a good mix of accuracy, control, and damage. The PP power lets you supe-up your seeker at-will. The 10th level feat is open to preference, a power swap, superior will, weapon focus maybe...12th level you will want primal eye to further stack damage, and of course picking up bracers of archer/perfect shot as they become available. Starts off a little weak due to the  advanced creation item rules, but even by 12th level it can jump up. Alternately, if you aren't as concerned with your defenses, you can just by vanilla +2 neck or armor (or both) and use a slot on heroic tier bracers of archery.

So the function is pretty easily achievable while avoiding the rules debates. If you want to play it up from heroic then you will want serene archery until you hit 11th and can retrain it to versatile master, using the Gritty Sergeant or Noble Bred for War background benefits for longbow proficiency until you can afford the feat for greatbow and retrain your background benefit.

You could even make this functional as a non-half-elf relying on serene archery at-will, and then more agressively power swapping and taking a seeker PP like crimson hunter. Or if you really want a seeker at-will, you can PMC too, and in this particular combination it isn't so crippling (and you get to brag about actually having a character PMC).
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 07, 2011 - 4:16PM #43
Dragon9
  • Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined: Jul 16, 2002
Posts: 4,997

Jul 6, 2011 -- 2:33PM, imaginaryfriend wrote:

Honestly, who is right does not really matter one bit in this situation untill the point is reached where it is spelled out in a way that no longer permits DM/Table variation.




This. I would be happy to permit it at a table I ran if they actually clarified it. My main problem with CS in this instance is that their replies amount to "Yes it works" with no explanation of how it bypasses the Avenger-only restriction which is a glaring hole in debate on the subject that never gets a satisfactory explanation. Even in the quoted message in the Consolidated thread the OP, while you are correct that they did say "Hybrid Avenger Oath" they never mentioned in their questioning the Avenger-only restriction.

Truth be told, that is quite relevent. While it would be nice to think that they exhaustively pour through the books, have extensive knowledge of the rules and discuss with each other these questions posed to them, I highly doubt that happens due to the well documented variability of CS answers. I had in the past, as an experiment, sent more than one message on the same subject to CS including differing amounts of pertinent information on the subject. I got different answers depending on how much info they were given and also depending on how many questions I asked.

In this case, were I sending the question, I would make sure to mention the Avenger-only restriction, point out that I am using a seeker power that can be used as a RBA, ask if the combo worked, and if so what relevant rules allowed it to bypass the Avenger-only restriction.

But maybe I'm more thorough than most.

Sorry WOTC, you lost me with Essentials.  So where I used to buy every book that came out, now I will be very choosy about what I buy.  Can we just get back to real 4e?

Check out the 4e Conversion Wiki.

1. Wizards fight dirty.  They hit their enemies in the NADs. -- Dragon9
2. A barbarian hits people with his axe.  A warlord hits people with his barbarian.
3. Boo-freakin'-hoo, ya light-slingin' finger-wigglers. -- MrCelcius in response to the Cleric's Healer's Lore nerf
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 08, 2011 - 5:44AM #44
kilpatds
Date Joined: Nov 23, 2003
Posts: 4,967
I repeat a point I made above.  The current Divine Power FAQ has an answer in it that is factually wrong.  There's no honest debate about the issue (Holy Ardor requires you hit, the FAQ says you don't have to).  It's not a one-off answer.  It's the FAQ.  And they should know it's wrong, because I've told them.
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus

Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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