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2 years ago ::
Jun 20, 2011 - 12:07PM
#21
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Date Joined:
May 29, 2001
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I don't have a problem with the extra time taken, considering how many things are higher on the priority list (meta-orgs, new Year 3 adventures, the summer CCG update). Especially since we know we're getting LFR-legal themes in the Neverwinter Campaign Setting.
I think the biggest issue will be retro-fitting these themes onto existing characters, so I'm hoping when the themes are made available, it'll be clear that only 'new' characters can take them.
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Pauper
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2 years ago ::
Jun 20, 2011 - 12:11PM
#22
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I think the biggest issue will be retro-fitting these themes onto existing characters, so I'm hoping when the themes are made available, it'll be clear that only 'new' characters can take them.
I sincerely hope not. Otherwise, why not just scrapp the retrain rules and allow characters only to take new powers or feats from supplements/mags released at the time they were created
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2 years ago ::
Jun 20, 2011 - 12:16PM
#23
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Date Joined:
May 29, 2001
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I sincerely hope not. Otherwise, why not just scrapp the retrain rules and allow characters only to take new powers or feats from supplements/mags released at the time they were created
Seriously? You're going to equate swapping a power or feat that already exists on a character sheet for a new power or feat with adding an entirely new character element that doesn't currently exist?
The former may result in power creep, given the relative power level of the powers or feats in question, but isn't guaranteed to. The latter is, by definition, power creep.
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Pauper
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2 years ago ::
Jun 20, 2011 - 12:32PM
#24
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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I miss the days when supplements were already pre-allowed weeks or even month before they were actually released.
I miss the days when it was the norm for campaign staff to have months to consider a new supplement before adding it to the campaign, and it was understood that it would be a rare publication in which everything would be found suitable for use without alteration (or at all).
I think the biggest issue will be retro-fitting these themes onto existing characters, so I'm hoping when the themes are made available, it'll be clear that only 'new' characters can take them.
This, unfortunately, makes absolutely no sense.
Either themes are now a part of the new baseline power level for characters (and so you're arbitrarily hindering pre-existing characters) or they're pure power creep (in which case no character should be allowed to use them). There's really no middle ground in which they're unneeded by a PC I created last week but needed by a PC I create next month.
That would be like restricting the Expertise feats and Improved Defenses to characters created post-Essentials, because they weren't available to characters created when the PH first came out.
Like many later-created feats, the only way themes make any sense (as far as power level goes) is if we assume that they're something that should have been there from the beginning, and are needed to bring PCs up to the level the designers want them to be at.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 20, 2011 - 1:04PM
#25
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I have mixed feelings about whether themes should be allowed in LFR and, if so, exactly how they should be implemented. However, I definitely want the LFR admins to take their time to think through it and carefully evaluate the pros and cons of each option. There aren't very many themes out currently. It's good for the admins to have a large enough sample to be representative of the whole before making a general decision about themes since that can have a broad-reaching impact on LFR. Themes are really a pandora's box of all sorts of random and potentially problematic things. If and how themes are included in LFR should be considered carefully. If done right, themes could probably be a fun, interesting addition to LFR. If a decision about themes is quickly slapped together based on limited and incomplete knowledge, it likely won't be a good decision and may lead to significant problems in the future. So..., calm down and be patient. It has been plenty of fun to play characters who don't have themes for the past 3 years. I'd much rather the LFR admins make a carefully thought-out, good decision about how to incorporate themes into LFR than throw together a quick decision.
Lori Anderson
WotC Freelancer, LFR author
@LittleLorika
CALI3-3 The Agony of Almraiven (co-author)
NETH4-1 Containing Shadow (co-author)
CALI4-1 Plain of Stone Spiders (author)
QUES4-1 Liberation (co-author)
EPIC5-1 Plaguewrought Prism (co-author)
TotalCon: http://www.totalcon.com/RolePlaying.html
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2 years ago ::
Jun 20, 2011 - 1:20PM
#26
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Date Joined:
May 29, 2001
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I think the biggest issue will be retro-fitting these themes onto existing characters, so I'm hoping when the themes are made available, it'll be clear that only 'new' characters can take them.
This, unfortunately, makes absolutely no sense.
Either themes are now a part of the new baseline power level for characters (and so you're arbitrarily hindering pre-existing characters) or they're pure power creep (in which case no character should be allowed to use them). There's really no middle ground in which they're unneeded by a PC I created last week but needed by a PC I create next month.
I wouldn't say 'needed/unneeded', but I would say 'appropriate/inappropriate'.
No current adventures are balanced for characters with themes, so if everyone has a theme, the adventure becomes less challenging. This is less of an issue for the oldest mods that are on target for retirement, but I'd be shocked if any current Season 3 mods take themes into account in balancing challenge level.
Themes, at least based on the way they were introduced, are intended to be similar to backgrounds as ways to flesh out your character's backstory -- it makes less sense to say, 'oh, right, we've been adventuring together for 16 levels but I just now remembered that I was born to a noble family and have abilities because of that'.
For those reasons and others, I think it's appropriate to limit themes to new characters.
Now, on the other hand, I'm not under any illusions that this will actually happen -- while it'll be obvious enough that a paragon-tier character at GenCon 2011 with a theme is breaking the rule, paragon characters at D&DXP 2012 (and even epic characters at GenCon 2012) could arguably have been leveled up from 1 to their existing level, unless someone remembers them being in a prior-year mod. Given that this is exactly the kind of 'ignored in the breach' rule that makes for headaches at mustering and long-winded arguments on these boards, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the decision were made not to limit themes to new characters.
That doesn't mean that I think allowing every character to suddenly develop a theme is a good idea.
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Pauper
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2 years ago ::
Jun 20, 2011 - 1:34PM
#27
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No current adventures are balanced for characters with themes, so if everyone has a theme, the adventure becomes less challenging.
Because of being able to do an extra 4.5 damage once per encounter or having a +2 more to a skill?
This is less of an issue for the oldest mods that are on target for retirement, but I'd be shocked if any current Season 3 mods take themes into account in balancing challenge level.
A challenge level that is supposed to be made easier/harder according to each particular table's needs anyway?
Themes, at least based on the way they were introduced, are intended to be similar to backgrounds as ways to flesh out your character's backstory -- it makes less sense to say, 'oh, right, we've been adventuring together for 16 levels but I just now remembered that I was born to a noble family and have abilities because of that'.
Because 'oh right, I told you last month that I have been studying the secret arts of the Spiral Tower, but yesterday I suddenly forgot all about that while reading this moldy tome about blood magic ...' (aka changing a paragon path) makes that much more sense.
It has been plenty of fun to play characters who don't have themes for the past 3 years.
It has also been plenty of fun to play LFR so far without any content of the new Elemental Heores or Magnificient whatsoever supplement. Has been plenty of fun to play just with PHB1 & 2 before PHB3 came around (and with just PHB1 before) ....
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2 years ago ::
Jun 22, 2011 - 7:36AM
#28
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Date Joined:
May 29, 2001
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It has been plenty of fun to play characters who don't have themes for the past 3 years.
It has also been plenty of fun to play LFR so far without any content of the new Elemental Heores or Magnificient whatsoever supplement. Has been plenty of fun to play just with PHB1 & 2 before PHB3 came around (and with just PHB1 before) ....
I'll take being mistaken for lorika as a compliment -- lorika typically has very insightful things to say about any given topic.
As for the rest, I don't see anything that convinces me that my position is mistaken.
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Pauper
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2 years ago ::
Jun 23, 2011 - 12:10AM
#29
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Date Joined:
Sep 21, 2006
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Beyond the wild character shifts that can and do happen with retraining (which in my experience and opinion tend to be mostly mechanical and don't really speak to the core person of the character, but YMMV) or even normal leveling, what about characters which are already well fitted to a theme conceptually?
Gluttony is already frequently referred to as the 'menagerie' for his assortment of helpful animals in combat, why would it be the least bit jarring for him to get an animal mininion to add to the mix?
Sin the Librarian was MC Wizard at one point and I've since changed that.. giving him the theme that gives him wizard powers wouldn't seem so strange for him. "Where'd you learn wizard powers Sin?" "when I studied under the Symbarch, 10 levels ago. I've let them slide more recently because I've been practicing a new technique, but I figured some of those old spells were useful and refreshed my memory of them."
I can probably find a conceptually fitting theme for most of my characters, and can no doubt refluff to fit the rest. Characters are gaining new abilities all the time, shouldn't be breaking your immersion unless your immersion is a bit too fragile for LFR to begin with. Just repeat to yourself "it's just a game" and sit back and relax.
For my own part I want themes so I can give gluttony a little bird minion that flies up next to enemies and counts as an ally adjacent to them. That's it. That's the only one I've really latched onto with anticipation, so I'll be fine if they aren't allowed after all. But I do think they help flesh out low heroic a bit, which is always good.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 27, 2011 - 9:05AM
#30
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Date Joined:
Jan 28, 2010
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It's not the admin's job to rethink and playtest the D&D rules.
Let the WotC staff do it.
If WotC thinks themes are fun and get positive feedback from the whole playerbase then the admins shouldn't start their own project to think them over. If you start doing this with themes then you could do this with EVERY SINGLE dragon article, too!
Concentrate on the Forgotten Realms - not the D&D rules.
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