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2 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2011 - 1:54PM
#31
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Date Joined:
Feb 10, 2008
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The delicate senses of the poor public, yeah I get it Scott.
Its hard to balance the want for super hard challanges, to nothing. I miss Greyhawk monster customization. WTB Critter with 80 ac. >.>
-Pot Stirrer.
-Because I can.
Co-Author Neth 3-3 Seek and Destroy. (Now with 10% more diplomacy!)
Author ELTU 4-3 Minutes to Midnight (Waiting on Release)
ABSO 4-2. (I really am working on this I promise!)
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2 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2011 - 2:20PM
#32
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Let's not forget that the PCs are supposed to win. Sure raising defenses as you suggest could end up challenging the Power gamed tables more, but it would also likely make it impossible for any table but a power-gamed table to win. I am pretty sure that is not what Dave nor the rest of the LFR admins want fot the Epic campaign.
Challenging for the "slightly better than average table" is a good goal. It also means that optimized tables will walk many of the encounters. But that is fine, since most omptimizers enjoy doing just that (walking over the combat) anyway.
Daren
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2 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2011 - 2:54PM
#33
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Date Joined:
Feb 10, 2008
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I'm of the opinion that pc's shouldn't always win, and that sometimes, when you kick down a door, what you find on the other side may end up smacking you around. If there is no chance for the PC's to lose, then what makes it Epic? No chance to lose, because they always have to win, means it's not Epic, it's just rudimentery. Which is not what I'm implying others have done. As an optimizer, I'd really like to have Epic be a throw down with god's, demon princes, beings of Well, Epic preportion, not just another encounter chump that ends up being alpha struck by the entire party. This again, is not a statement of what LFR Epic is, just my own statements of what I have seen and done. I just dont see why the hand holding is occuring, and why we cant have one good solid grindfest, if you come through that door, you come with your A game style of module. Last Gen Con's special was much of what I as a DM, and a player enjoyed at APL 20. The monsters were insanely difficult, one screw up on high, left pc's in pieces. It was put up or shut up, and if you cant go big, then go home. Heck, one of my tables even wrote about it. The Legendary encounter. I pushed them to the limits, and they were all optimizers. Everything mattered, It all counted. Every dice roll, everything. It was the best table I have ran, and I just dont think it can ever get and be like that one table ever again. That one table, broke me as a DM to judging I think. I dont believe that I'll ever have a pinnacle of what could be, as what happened there, because I had a game breaking encounter, if they were average players they would have left and made multiple complaints. Instead they took it, ran with it, and made it legendary. Those types of encounters are what I want in Epic. Where the monster is so big, so bad, where blood is so in the water, and you know it, the dm knows it. The only way the PC's will make it out alive is with some leap of faith, and then it happens. 3 natural 20 death saves, to second wind 3 out of 6 players from being down. Thats the kind of legendary, Epic encounters I want to see, I dont care if the monsters no longer follow AC+14 or not, just as long as I cant smoke the big baddie, just as long as the fight matters, knowing that even as broken as my group could be, this critter is bigger, badder, and meaner then anything we've ever seen, and if we dont stop it, then the world can kiss it's collective rear goodbye. Thats what I'm hoping Epic will culminate with. At least I can hope. Edit. (Note, I'm talking about SPEC2-2, P3 Tyranny’s Perilous Bastion At high with Glory Tier included) Edit 2. dungeonsmaster.com/2010/08/what-makes-an...The write up about it.
-Pot Stirrer.
-Because I can.
Co-Author Neth 3-3 Seek and Destroy. (Now with 10% more diplomacy!)
Author ELTU 4-3 Minutes to Midnight (Waiting on Release)
ABSO 4-2. (I really am working on this I promise!)
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2 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2011 - 4:19PM
#34
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I'd love to steer this back on track and hear more feedback on EPIC3-2, however, I will say the following:
Despite some of this discussion, note that EPIC3-2 is by no means a walk in the park. You've seen the experiences of one table, and I would argue that the moments they would have been truly challenged were cut short in their favor (and those were the encounters that were meant to amp up the challenge).
Also note that challenge is very much in the hands of the DM. I know for a fact that Greg Marks is an evil genius, and his playtest table was sweating bullets. I believe he had a few deaths as well (as did some other tables).
I'm of the opinion that the adventure has the necessary tools such that if the DM wanted to amp up the challenge - he could. I'm open to hearing stances to the contrary or suggestions on how to expand that toolbox in future adventures.
Dave Kay
LFR Writing Director Retiree
dkay807 [at] yahoo [dot] com
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2 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2011 - 6:23PM
#35
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Date Joined:
Nov 21, 2005
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Despite some of this discussion, note that EPIC3-2 is by no means a walk in the park. You've seen the experiences of one table, and I would argue that the moments they would have been truly challenged were cut short in their favor (and those were the encounters that were meant to amp up the challenge).
Maybe I'm not evil enough.
In your defense, regardless of attack/defense math, you introduced other factors. Some of these encounters have time pressure, some of them have sideways objectives, and some of them have odd setups designed to jar the players' expectations. You have a pretty good set of tools in your toolbox.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 3:46AM
#36
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Your typical level 22 monster has an AC of 36 and NADs of 34. My level 22 barbarian was walking around with an attack bonus of +35 during the playtest (with CA - automatic on round 1).
Is expertise necessary? No. Is it easy to resist taking it? Hell no.
However is this really the norm? I have only build epic version of my characters in theory, however I usually end up with around +36 vs. AC at level 30 already including expertise.
(some characters hardly improve at all, though, you'd be surprised),
I guess that would be me. I also never noticed the supposedly power jump from 10 to 11.
Anything 20+ level should have defenses in the low forties, and by 25, they should be hitting fifty+
Wow, if that were the design goal I wouldn't even need to try reaching epic
Adventures, LFR or otherwise, are generally not written for for the people who play D&D ruler in hand (biggest to-hit, damage, most mechanically effective, anyway you get the idea). They are, and have to be, aimed at a broader spectrum. What some may view as limitations in for instance monsters defenses can also be viewed as an aid in keeping things entertaining for the people that want to do without advanced statistical analysis when creating their characters 
Good to hear.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 11:08AM
#37
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Date Joined:
Apr 11, 2008
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Your typical level 22 monster has an AC of 36 and NADs of 34. My level 22 barbarian was walking around with an attack bonus of +35 during the playtest (with CA - automatic on round 1).
Is expertise necessary? No. Is it easy to resist taking it? Hell no.
However is this really the norm? I have only build epic version of my characters in theory, however I usually end up with around +36 vs. AC at level 30 already including expertise.
I'm pretty impressed as well. I figured Strength of 28 (+9), enhancement bonus of +5, expertise at +3, using a +3 proficiency weapon (probably fullblade), and a +1 bonus from something like Kensei. Even with all that and the level bonus of +11, I'm only up to +32 (and Superior Reflexes for automatic CA). What am I missing? More likely for a barbarian that level, you'd only have Strength 26, and you might not have taken a paragon path to give you an additional attack bonus. You're still hitting equal-level monsters on a 6, but most of the time, you're not fighting equal level monsters. They take up too much board space, especially since things tend to be Large or larger in epic. Epic here is also a bit front-loaded with the expertise bonus increasing at 21, along with many epic destinies also giving a bump at that level. The rewards for EPIC 3-1 make it more likely that a character will have a +5 weapon, too. For level 23 through 30, the main increases you'd expect are enhancement to +6, another ability bump, and the level bonus increasing from +11 to +15. That's +6 over 8 levels, which evens things out a bit more.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 5:49PM
#38
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Now I did play with Azurescale (Dave's Barbarian) back in February when he was 20th, but I think the missing +2 is actually from his Epic Destiny -- Avater of Io -- Breath Mastery. It could also just be the +2 from his Mithral Arm action point benefit.
Daren
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2 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2011 - 4:31AM
#39
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Now I did play with Azurescale (Dave's Barbarian) back in February when he was 20th, but I think the missing +2 is actually from his Epic Destiny -- Avater of Io -- Breath Mastery. It could also just be the +2 from his Mithral Arm action point benefit.
Daren
Ayup. I don't ever use an AP on round 1, you know that
In any case, the bottom line is that monsters can't tweak their defenses like PCs can tweak their attack bonus. If players want their PCs to hit almost always... they can do it.
Dave Kay
LFR Writing Director Retiree
dkay807 [at] yahoo [dot] com
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2 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2011 - 7:16AM
#40
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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Dave actively avoids too much daze/stun, so I rarely saw Superior Will come into play.
I have to admit... it's actually my experience that Dave likes daze and stun too much, and everyone else reins him in  I mean, he's known as an evil writer for a reason.
Personally, superior will (much like before with snap out of it) makes me want to largely avoid daze and stun as mechanics in epic, except as rare sprinkles to keep folks on their toes. It's just silly having one table get crushed cause they don't have the feat, while another the tiefling auto-makes his start of turn save against daze and gives his allies a +8 bonus to all of their saves so they automake their start of turns... and I saw both of those things happen in epic play at different tables.
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"Not using an AP in round 1" is an interesting idea... makes me want to have an elite or solo that gains power from every AP spent in the first round (or two) of combat
I've run it 2 3/4 times (finishing up that last 1/4 next week), and I've gotten two kills, two near TPKs, and a dozen or so extremely worried "I'm at 4 hp, heal me heal me" or "And that drops me... so I'm taking 35 damage at the start of my turn?" "It does damage when it dies? Okay, wait, I need to do some math... so... okay, 4 shy of negative bloodied. Whoa" - I'm pretty happy with that level, and I'm kind of a carebear DM in terms of choices like spreading damage around (though I'm savvy enough in terms of using my abilities)
Keith Richmond
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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