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2 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2011 - 7:17AM
#11
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In theory, a level 22 character with a +8 stat and +5 implement needs a 10 to hit the average defense of 34... accurate implement makes that a 9, expertise makes that a 6. Combat Advantage drops it to a 4. Leader buffs, like a battle captain in the party gives you a +2 in the first round. A +3 proficiency weapon needs 1 less... and if they're going against a NAD, they need 3 less, which is more of the problem (Thieves and Spear-chargers who can target Ref, looking at you)
I've seen plenty of people without Superior Will (among other things, there are stat requirements), but everyone should have Expertise. It's silly not to spend the feat at epic.
And I am arguing that it is not really all that silly unless you are the type of player who absolutely hates missing. I am sorry, but hitting on a 7+ is perfectly fine in my book... 
Of course, weapon-implement users like say swordmages also resent the remark that everybody should have Expertise
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2 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2011 - 7:18AM
#12
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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With the final version of the flask, it's not actually usable during the adventure (no extended rest) - it might be worthwhile to do one or more of the following:
1) Allow the flask to be loaded at the time you get the draught
2) Allow the flask to generally be loaded by a short rest, not an extended rest
3) Change the flask to start each day with 2 surges preloaded.
4) Do not charge a found item slot for the flask.
Note that only changes 3 or 4 will change the flask so it's actually taken as a treasure bundle, and I would not expect to see very many taken, at all, in its current incarnation.
Keith Richmond
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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2 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2011 - 7:21AM
#13
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I'll admit that it's very difficult to resist the urge to maximize attack bonus on one's PC. I've gone out of my way to reduce certain optimization aspects to make things more interesting, both for myself and fellow players, but I haven't been able to resist an optimized attack bonus.
Your typical level 22 monster has an AC of 36 and NADs of 34. My level 22 barbarian was walking around with an attack bonus of +35 during the playtest (with CA - automatic on round 1).
Is expertise necessary? No. Is it easy to resist taking it? Hell no.
Dave Kay
LFR Writing Director Retiree
dkay807 [at] yahoo [dot] com
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2 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2011 - 7:22AM
#14
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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And I am arguing that it is not really all that silly unless you are the type of player who absolutely hates missing. I am sorry, but hitting on a 7+ is perfectly fine in my book...
*shrug* If the difference between two epic PCs is one took expertise, and the other took whatever their 12th feat choice was instead of expertise, then the first will land 15% more status effects like stun and do 20-30% more damage. It's unfortunately a bit more than just "dislike missing on a 7", it's like bringing a level 20 character instead of a level 22 character, or 23 instead of a 26.
The only real exception are certain builds of lazy warlord.
Of course, weapon-implement users like say swordmages also resent the remark that everybody should have Expertise
At epic, even swordmages should have expertise - versatile expertise is only +2 to each until 25th, though I've hopes that will change to match the newer expertise feats so swordmages and paladins aren't quite as misrepresented by the feats.
Keith Richmond
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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2 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2011 - 7:23AM
#15
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With the final version of the flask, it's not actually usable during the adventure (no extended rest) - it might be worthwhile to do one or more of the following:
1) Allow the flask to be loaded at the time you get the draught
2) Allow the flask to generally be loaded by a short rest, not an extended rest
3) Change the flask to start each day with 2 surges preloaded.
4) Do not charge a found item slot for the flask.
Note that only changes 3 or 4 will change the flask so it's actually taken as a treasure bundle, and I would not expect to see very many taken, at all, in its current incarnation.
I'll weigh in here. I agree with Keith. I think the only viable options are 2 and 3 above. I'm fine with either.
Whether or not people take the flask remains to be seen, but I agree that something needs to be done. Sadly, it's out of my hands at this point.
Dave Kay
LFR Writing Director Retiree
dkay807 [at] yahoo [dot] com
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2 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2011 - 8:37AM
#16
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*shrug* If the difference between two epic PCs is one took expertise, and the other took whatever their 12th feat choice was instead of expertise, then the first will land 15% more status effects like stun and do 20-30% more damage. It's unfortunately a bit more than just "dislike missing on a 7", it's like bringing a level 20 character instead of a level 22 character, or 23 instead of a 26.
I am not sure how I should react to a statement like this, except perhaps that all we can do is agree to disagree, because if you honestly belief that a 15% higher chance of hitting is what makes it a level 22 character instead of a 20th level you are taking a facet of the game way out of perspective It is also besides the point. I am not arguing the feat is not good, that would be silly. I am trying to say that talking about feat tax, and at the same time complain how easy equal level fights at higher levels have become and how much work it is for authors to offer a proper challenge is just odd. Anyway, this is a discussion that has nothing to do with EPIC3-2, sorry Dave
* Note that like Dave Kay I have been actively avoiding some things (most notably team initiative boosts, Commerade's Succor and the superior defense feats; and I certainly dropped a couple of AC boosting stuff for my swordmage when I realized monsters required a 15+ to hit his AC), but Expertise is not one of them.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2011 - 8:46AM
#17
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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If the epic adventures are playtested with groups who generally take the expertise feats, and Dave's making sure they're challenging, then expertise feats are pretty much a must for LFR players. I have absolutely no problem with this, personally.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2011 - 8:59AM
#18
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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Expertise Blathering: Spoiler:
Show
I am not sure how I should react to a statement like this, except perhaps that all we can do is agree to disagree, because if you honestly belief that a 15% higher chance of hitting is what makes it a level 22 character instead of a 20th level you are taking a facet of the game way out of perspective
Oh, it's hardly all of it - especially since there's so much you can pack into 21st depending on the character (some characters hardly improve at all, though, you'd be surprised), it was just the first comparison I grabbed.
I suppose instead I could have said it's like someone who _really_ likes the +2 implement they got at 2nd level, and never improves it That's probably better, and seems more ludicrous, at the same time.
But, really, we should avoid talking about supposed feat taxes, at all, ever. In any forum. That horse has been beaten, murdered, reanimated, rebuked, and disintegrated.
More on topic for EPIC3-2, I'm extremely happy with all of the changes that we made as we playtested and developed it, so if anyone played with an extremely early version, I encourage you to check out the latest version and give it a whirl. Also... this is truly a 12-15 hour adventure. Please don't schedule 8-10 hours (even if that's all EPIC3-1 took cause you had a kickbutt optimized group - remember, that adventure was designed for a con environment, and this one wasn't). There's a _lot_ of possible roleplay, and I would expect most epic groups to take at least 10 hours for the various challenges.
Keith Richmond
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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2 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2011 - 9:23AM
#19
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Date Joined:
Nov 21, 2005
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With the final version of the flask, it's not actually usable during the adventure (no extended rest)
Aha - that's what was bugging me as I got to Encounter 6. I was working off the final version, but it was a previous version that I had studied, and something wasn't consistent. I think that reference to the flask in Encounter 6 is now pointless.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2011 - 9:37AM
#20
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Date Joined:
Aug 10, 2007
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Also... this is truly a 12-15 hour adventure. Please don't schedule 8-10 hours (even if that's all EPIC3-1 took cause you had a kickbutt optimized group - remember, that adventure was designed for a con environment, and this one wasn't). There's a _lot_ of possible roleplay, and I would expect most epic groups to take at least 10 hours for the various challenges.
Strongly agree.
I'd schedule this over 2 full days (or 4 standard sessions) with a home group, or over 4 slots if offering at a convention or game-day. (Although it CAN be completed in 12-15 hours, a group that prefers taking their time and exploring all of the RP options will appreciate the extra time without the need to feel rushed.)
Dan Anderson
@EpicUthrac
Living Forgotten Realms Calimshan Writing Director
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Meet me at TotalConfusion:
http://www.totalcon.com/RolePlaying.html
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