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2 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2011 - 11:15AM
#101
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..and from reading this thread most of them are finishing with "and we skipped the last encounter."
And the further point is that there is no such thing as an environment that is not "time-restricted". You're pushing it...heck no, you maxed it out with a mod thats designed to run in a 12 hour time frame. Designing a mod that breaks that frame makes it unplayable in a realistic sense. Trying to design these as mini-conventions in their own right just makes them long, tedious grindfests that can be annoying to play and a royal PITA to DM.
Don't these mods now have "natural break points" where you can stop and then continue next week with the same (or a different group)? IIRC the problem with playing more than 10h straight was voiced when the structure of the epic campaign was first discussed and at the end they said that while supposed to be played in one piece, the mods would offer some opportunities to break them into three 4h or two 6h sessions.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2011 - 11:16AM
#102
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...and from reading this thread most of them are finishing with "and we skipped the last encounter."
I have played this adventure twice and I did not skip any of the encounters either time.
The last encounter is a lot of fun. I wouldn't recommend skipping it or rushing through it.
Lori Anderson
WotC Freelancer, LFR author
@LittleLorika
CALI3-3 The Agony of Almraiven (co-author)
NETH4-1 Containing Shadow (co-author)
CALI4-1 Plain of Stone Spiders (author)
QUES4-1 Liberation (co-author)
EPIC5-1 Plaguewrought Prism (co-author)
TotalCon: http://www.totalcon.com/RolePlaying.html
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2 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2011 - 11:35AM
#103
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Date Joined:
Aug 10, 2007
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Don't these mods now have "natural break points" where you can stop and then continue next week with the same (or a different group)? IIRC the problem with playing more than 10h straight was voiced when the structure of the epic campaign was first discussed and at the end they said that while supposed to be played in one piece, the mods would offer some opportunities to break them into three 4h or two 6h sessions.
Yes, the adventure does have natural break points.
Believing that "3 LFR Epic mods" can be played in a 12-hour slot is an unrealistic expectation, due to the nature of the game.
LFR heroic adventures take 3-4 hours. So, 3 of these mods will take roughly 9-12 hours.
There are few who disagree that Paragon adventures take longer to play than heroic adventures, often due to players slowing down because they have additional options. It is common for people to comment that an LFR paragon adventure will take 4-5 hours if you don't cut corners.
Add another complexity level to Epic adventures. I'd expect 3 such adventures to take significantly more than 12 hours.
It is entirely possibly to complete in under 12 hours, but the group needs to stay focused and keep moving, minimize breaks, etc. That's a tall order for one day of gaming!
Be aware of your environment and the time restrictions. There are many things that can be cut, and many more that can be extended. Maximum enjoyment will be attained by those who are not forced to play this adventure under time restriction. 
Dan Anderson
@EpicUthrac
Living Forgotten Realms Calimshan Writing Director
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Meet me at TotalConfusion:
http://www.totalcon.com/RolePlaying.html
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2 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2011 - 11:48AM
#104
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The adventures do have natural break points so that you can stop and pick up at a later time, just like a home game. We try to provide multiple options for breakpoints (i.e. not just a halfway point, but also a few that mark 1/3 and 2/3), although it doesn't always make sense, depending on the storyline.
Sean is right in the sense that we're not trying to cram everything into a 12-hour slot. There's a big story to tell, and we're aiming for approximately 12 hours of gameplay, but people move at different paces, and we're not encouraging people to skip encounters to finish in 12 hours. However, to be fair, one in every three Epic adventures will be a DDXP premiere (EPIC3-1 is an example, and EPIC4-1 and EPIC5-1 will follow suit). With that, I have reminded the authors of those adventures that they should be fully playable within 12 hours (without forcing people to hurry up or skip encounters), so that people can get the full experience at DDXP.
So, to set clear expectations, EPIC3-1, 4-1, 5-1, and 6-1 (the finale) will be playable in 12 hours (or three convention slots). EPIC3-2,3-3, 4-2, 4-3, 5-2, and 5-3 may or may not. We'll strive to time-box them to within 10-15 hours - and our playtest tables will help us determine whether we've hit that mark.
And lastly, as a friendly reminder, try to keep your feedback constructive. 22_Over_7 did a good job keeping his experiences uninsulting. I have yet to hear anyone refer to one of the Epic adventures as a "tedious grindfest" (unless you have no striker in your party - then I guess it could be, but at least be objective about it and realize that the adventure isn't the culprit).
Dave Kay
LFR Writing Director Retiree
dkay807 [at] yahoo [dot] com
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2 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2011 - 11:56AM
#105
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Calling the adventure "unplayable" due to it's length is a stretch. Difficult to play as a "one-shot" or at a convention? Sure. But calling it completely unplayable is ridiculous. The admins have repeatedly said that the epic campaign is designed for and best experienced in a home setting.
The Scales of War adventure requires over 300 hours of play. Does that make it an "unplayable" adventure? No. Is a group going to play the entire Scales of War adventure in a month and a half by playing every day for weeks straight? No. D&D is generally designed and intended to be played in chunks (play a few hours every week or every month or whatever). The idea that all adventures can be played in 4 hours is an artificial notion. D&D wasn't designed to be played that way and LFR has already seen numerous problems with it (such as difficulty making appropriately challenging adventures for that short time slot and meta-gaming about number of encounters per adventure).
Yes, there is such a thing as a setting that is not time-restricted. People have been playing D&D in non time-restricted environments for decades. In a home game, if everyone spends the majority of the time chit-chatting about the most recent errata and you only end up doing a single encounter that night..., no big deal, you just pick up where you left off next time. The epic games are certainly doable, especially when broken up into smaller chunks.
There's no requirement that you have to play one of the Epic adventures in one sitting or one weekend. (If fact, that's generally not a good/fun way to play it.) Play half of the mod this week and the other half next week or next month or whenever you can get everyone together to play again. Everyone can write down how many surges they have left, which daily powers they have used, etc. and then pick up where you left off next time. It may be hard for some players or groups to be able to do, but the adventure length doesn't make it "unplayable." The epic campaign is not for everyone and will not work for everyone.
+a lot
Dave Kay
LFR Writing Director Retiree
dkay807 [at] yahoo [dot] com
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2 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2011 - 12:03PM
#106
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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I've not had problems playing either epic mod in 12 hours. Both have clocked in at closer to 11, I'd say. We split them into 3 4 hour chucks for scheduling reasons, and didn't go over on any given day.
I've been advising people to aim at cutting them in half, rather than thirds. It's a bit smoother then. But ... thirds does work.
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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2 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2011 - 1:56PM
#107
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Date Joined:
Mar 17, 2005
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We recently ran both EPIC3-1 and EPIC 3-2 at a local con, one a day. (Note I didn't run or play any of them.) None of the tables have trouble finishing and they took ample lunch and dinner breaks. The adventure is certainly playable.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2011 - 2:55PM
#108
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Date Joined:
Mar 15, 2001
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Calling the adventure "unplayable" due to it's length is a stretch. Difficult to play as a "one-shot" or at a convention? Sure. But calling it completely unplayable is ridiculous. The admins have repeatedly said that the epic campaign is designed for and best experienced in a home setting.
Utterly irrelevant what setting its in. How often does someone want play the same adventure from dawn-til-dusk just to finish? That is the overwhelming majority of the play descriptions in this thread and the anecdotal evidence I've heard/seen.
The Scales of War adventure requires over 300 hours of play....
Again, not a valid comparison. LFR requires that the table that started the mod, play it thru. That fact alone will restrict the running of the mod to one sitting in most occasions. Forget convention settings, getting 6 people with real lives and real schedules together to spend 2 or more days playing one adventure is unrealistic at best and makes the adventure "unplayable" in anything less than a close knit home group. Key thing here is that is exactly what LFR is set up to avoid doing. Comparing it to an adventure thats designed to have start/stop points, level breaks, table realignments and players dropping in/out is worthless. If you want it to act like scales of war, write the whole thing and release it as a block that takes you from 21-30. No, I dont think thats a good idea, but then it would be like scales...
Its a great mod with a decent story, the problem is that the "story" is the last 6-8 hours of the mod and the first 6-8 hours are spent in "filler-time" doing nothing but wasting party resources to make the last 1/2 a challenge. Whats wrong with designing a mod that starts with the last half and is a challenge from the get-go and runs in 10-12 hours consistently? Like say 3-1 did?
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2 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2011 - 3:17PM
#109
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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Utterly irrelevant what setting its in. How often does someone want play the same adventure from dawn-til-dusk just to finish? That is the overwhelming majority of the play descriptions in this thread and the anecdotal evidence I've heard/seen. ...-stuff snipped-
I think this is going to turn out to be a case of agreeing to disagree, but if it helps I am perfectly willing to accept my opinion being wrong, uninformed, to the detriment of players everywhere and generally stupid? Not that I am about to change my opinion mind you
To DME, or not to DME: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous powergaming, Or to take arms against a sea of Munchkins, And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;No more;
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2 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2011 - 3:30PM
#110
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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I think we already did the "3-rounds sucks" hoops back before epic3-1 came out, even, so I don't think we need to do it again now.
Keith Richmond
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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