As I mentioned up the thread a little, I just wish that the designers actually had more explicit guidance as to the amount of encounters characters were expected to handle in a day, and by tier. But they don't.
8 combat encounters of Level-1 OR 6 combat encounters of Level+1, but with a skill challenge between each so that PCs always have an AP OR 3 combat encounters of Level+3, but only for highly synergistic/optimized parties OR . . .
There are just too many variables between the difficulty of the encounters and the experience/power level of the PCs to make a hard-and-fast rule. And remember, D&D was not designed for LFR. In a home campaign, I can modify the number of encounters based on how the party is doing before an extended rest. Maybe they win initiative and crit the first round of the first encounter, and blow it away using no resources - - they will be able to go further without an extended rest. Perhaps they get unlucky with saving throws and an encounter goes very badly in that same first encounter - now they've lost half their surges and used daily resources.
8 combat encounters of Level-1OR6 combat encounters of Level+1, but with a skill challenge between each so that PCs always have an APOR3 combat encounters of Level+3, but only for highly synergistic/optimized partiesOR . . . There are just too many v
And remember, D&D was not designed for LFR. In a home campaign, I can modify the number of encounters based on how the party is doing before an extended rest. Maybe they win initiative and crit the first round of the first encounter, and blow it away using no resources - - they will be able to go further without an extended rest. Perhaps they get unlucky with saving throws and an encounter goes very badly in that same first encounter - now they've lost half their surges and used daily resources.
That's one of the things I enjoy about home campaigns that you really can't get in LFR (just the nature of the beast). In home games the players and DM can custom-fit the difficulty level for the party. In my home game we've been known to go through an extensive number of encounters in a day, like 2 full days worth of encounters (based on the published modules' assumptions) before an extended rest. If we have enough resources left, we decide to keep fighting even though the module assumes we would need a break at that point.
I actually really like the way EPIC 3-2 handles this. The adventure lets individuals and parties set their own challenge level. If you're really struggling in the adventure and need help (or just enjoy easier adventures), Spoiler:Show
you can always sign the contract with Sinmaker.
If you are playing an extremely optimized character who thoroughly tromps everything in its path, Spoiler:Show
that player can choose the increased challenge of refusing to accept any of Sinmaker's help.
I playtested EPIC 3-2 twice (I guess that's what happens when I game with all 3 of the authors... ). The first time I was playing an extremely tough defender and choose the "hard path" because that character could handle it. It was rewarding that I managed to successfully complete the adventure even on "hard mode" and the increased challenge made it more fun for me. The second time I played with a cleric who ended up taking massive amounts of damage and getting the tar beat out of her. I played on "hard mode" with her for most of the adventure, but near the end I had to switch to "easier mode" in order to avoid death. I liked that essentially the choice of difficulty level of the adventure was my choice to make. (I'm sure there will be consequences for that choice, but it was still a player choice.)
That's one of the things I enjoy about home campaigns that you really can't get in LFR (just the nature of the beast). In home games the players and DM can custom-fit the difficulty level for the party. In my home game we've been known to go throug
After going through 17 HS in EPIC 3-1, I knew the PC needed to be tougher!
So my PC now has ways to gain temp hp, increase his HS value, recover HS, and do a little bit of surgeless healing.
EPIC 3-2 makes me glad that my epic PC has invested a lot of resources intoSpoiler:
Show
being tough as bloody nails.After going through 17 HS in EPIC 3-1, I knew the PC needed to be tougher!So my PC now has ways to gain temp hp, increase his
(I'd give more detail, but I don't know how to hide text.)
There are two ways: [ sblock ]insert text you want hidden here[ /sblock ] or [ spoiler ]insert hidden text here[ /spoiler ]
Thanks!
Now I can give a little more detail on our play of EPIC3-2 last weekend. As I said earlier, we had a well-balanced party with fair to good optimization. One cleric, one swordmage with EXTREMELY high defenses, one wizard, one archer ranger, and two rogues.
First off, the wizard had a severely tricked-out Arcana score, so she was able to auto-make absolutely any Arcana check as a minor action. That helped a LOT.
We ended up talking to King Karsos in encounter 1, and doing the fight in Payratheon. We had a VERY rough time of it: the continual waves of mud had several of us in the water, and at one point it looked like our cleric might drown. More teleportation would have helped a LOT. I'm happy to pick up Tymora's Boon of Escape after living through that. We skipped the battle for the fruit of life (encounter 4B). Only one PC (the cleric) ended up getting the Corroding Doom. The Shelter from the Storm fight (encounter 5B) was another rough one, not so much because the FIGHT was tough (it wasn't), but because of the massive amounts of environmental damage.
In encounter 7 (which SHOULD be named "Bait and Switch") we managed to take out four opponents by the end of Round 2. Our Swordmage prophetically proclaimed that "This is too easy." The ensuing REAL fight wasn't really too hard (mage versus swarm was pretty lopsided in our favor), but missing out on the benefits really hurt, especially my ranger who hadn't yet signed Sin's contract and consequently missed out on the chance to get some surges back.
In encounter 8 (the running battle with the abominations skill challenge) we had no trouble making the required skill checks, but we DID have some problems kiiling all the abominations, mostly due to a high number of punted die rolls. We ended up letting a total of 14 live, so we took 70 points of damage. That hurt.
Encounter 9 (disrupting the ritual) was an interesting challenge. We realized immediately that attacking was pointless until we shut down the ritual, so we did everything in our power to do that first. We had the ritual ended by one turn into Round 3, and it would have been sooner except for one bad die roll. Oddly, we managed to kill the two demonweb spiders BEFORE the ritual ended, by getting them unconscious and then doing coup de grace before they got a chance to heal. (A tricked-out rogue's damage potential when well-motivated is a beautiful thing to behold.)
Our sole death was in encounter 11, where one of our rogues decided to go back and try to free one last prisoner after the rest of us had already retreated. He thought he had it worked out so he could make it, but it went bad and he got caught. Our DM was nice and gave us the five-player version of the last encounter.
In looking at the module, I see that the final encounter is rated as Level 26. I find that a little hard to believe, as we didn't have a lot of trouble with it, and that's after having LOTS of trouble in various earlier encounters of lower levels. Of course, it helped a lot that we came in with three relevant freed prisoners, so we started with three Hard successes. Our approach was to basically not worry about the monsters except to the extent that we HAD to, and concentrate on getting people out as fast as possible. Once we had our uber-Arcana wizard through, we knew we could open the gate at will, and so the last to go through was our incredibly-high-defenses Swordmage. Only a couple of monsters managed to sneak through (three, I think: one for Sinmaker and two more for the two people who didn't have keystones), but they weren't too hard to deal with by the people on the other side. Overall a not-too-bad final encounter. Certainly nowhere near the difficulty that would be expected from an EL 26 encounter.
By the end, we had five out of six sign Sin's contract. Four (all except the swordmage and my ranger) did so in Encounter 6, but I held out as I still had four surges left and figured I could make it. Problem was, by the end of Encounter 10 I had NONE left. I ended up signing, and all I got out of it was Sin's one remaining surge. (Our DM might have invoked a bit of DME in allowing Sin to just transfer a surge to me.) It was enough, barely. I ended the mod with no surges and a bit of damage, but I made it.
I realize that resource management is an important aspect of Epic mods, but I'm going to get pretty pissed off if I have to go through the entire Epic campaign and never again get an extended rest. There has to be an alternate way of challenging the players than making them dole out their surges like the last drops of water in the middle of the Sahara. Besides, after a while the artificial mechanisms for why you can't take an extended rest will become tedious. However, in anticipation of this complaint being overruled, I have decided to increase my Con at 24th to pick up an additional surge.
Overall, a very challenging mod, but not quite as enjoyable as EPIC3-1: too many frustrations. On the other hand, I consider EPIC3-1 to be one of the greatest mods I've even played, and I go back to the early days of LG.
Oh, and my brand-new Flying Carpet absolutely ROCKS! Greatest bundle EVER!
Rex Joyner
There are two ways:[ sblock ]insert text you want hidden here[ /sblock ] or [ spoiler ]insert hidden text here[ /spoiler ] [/quote]Thanks!Now I can give a little more detail on our play of EPIC3-2 last weekend. As I said earlier, we had a well-balanc
Which shows that people love different things. The playtest table I was involved with thought this adventure was a lot better than the previous one, and they already really liked the first one. For them it felt more epic, and the extensive use of skills gave them the idea that there was a reason to invest in those beyond mere RPing. Maybe their distaste for alfa-striking also helped. They also love the type of setup that is Sinmaker
As for extended rests, rest assured, Dave is making each adventure different to keep the players on their toes. I am sure one of the future adventures will have an extended rest
The actual level of the last encounter depends a lot on what happens in the session. My playtest group for example had a bit of bad luck with the dice at the start and how the group got split up, and one of the PCs seriously considered sacrificing himself so that the others could close the portal. Luckily the dice recovered, and the DM missed with an attack that proved to be critical for the outcome. Although to be honest, that player would have loved to confront the other characters with that sacrifice, gladly sacrificing that boon of Corellon for it, even though at the time he was a bit frustrated about it*
* Being knocked prone, teleported away and then seeing the portle scramble just before you can reach safety can do that to a player [/quote]
Which shows that people love different things. The playtest table I was involved with thought this adventure was a lot better than the previous one, and they already really liked the first one. For them it felt more epic, and the extensive use of ski
The Shelter from the Storm fight (encounter 5B) was another rough one, not so much because the FIGHT was tough (it wasn't), but because of the massive amounts of environmental damage.
The actual "fight" is to get in the cave... so if you took a lot of environmental damage, you were likely either too cautious or didn't deal well enough with the enemies trying to stop you from getting in / throw you back out. Did you guys actually take much more than 15 each on average?
In looking at the module, I see that the final encounter is rated as Level 26. I find that a little hard to believe, as we didn't have a lot of trouble with it, and that's after having LOTS of trouble in various earlier encounters of lower levels.
Well, part of it is the xp for the skill challenge is included in that total... that said, I could have TPKed two of the tables I ran this encounter for, so I assure you it can be difficult.
Once we had our uber-Arcana wizard through, we knew we could open the gate at will, and so the last to go through was our incredibly-high-defenses Swordmage.
I'm actually surprised that the idea you could reopen it easily once per round was all that comforting... my tables had to reopen it on a far faster timeline than that, in general.
(Our DM might have invoked a bit of DME in allowing Sin to just transfer a surge to me.)
He has the ability to heal people with his own surges, like an artificer, so that's not a huge leap.
It was enough, barely. I ended the mod with no surges and a bit of damage, but I made it.
You know, that's about the goal - I've seen several table reports of people narrowly making it through by the skin of their teeth, and that's about the right level of difficult for epic.
I realize that resource management is an important aspect of Epic mods, but I'm going to get pretty pissed off if I have to go through the entire Epic campaign and never again get an extended rest.
There was an extended rest in epic3-1. There will be some extended rests in the epic campaign, but only when appropriate. Epic really can't afford to just be "two" LFR adventures with 3 encounters an extended rest then another 3 encounters. Epic's just not designed that way. You could throw 15 dailies at every single encounter.
Now, I'll admit that the design of epic has made me start to re-evaluate some of the design of my epic character to have some better defense and healing options, and less pure damage... and also to pick up a feat that improves with milestones... and, I don't see how that's a problem.
Spoiler:
Show
The actual "fight" is to get in the cave... so if you took a lot of environmental damage, you were likely either too cautious or didn't deal well enough with the enemies trying to stop you from getting in / throw you back out. Di
I realize that resource management is an important aspect of Epic mods, but I'm going to get pretty pissed off if I have to go through the entire Epic campaign and never again get an extended rest. There has to be an alternate way of challenging the players than making them dole out their surges like the last drops of water in the middle of the Sahara. Besides, after a while the artificial mechanisms for why you can't take an extended rest will become tedious. However, in anticipation of this complaint being overruled, I have decided to increase my Con at 24th to pick up an additional surge.
Overall, a very challenging mod, but not quite as enjoyable as EPIC3-1: too many frustrations. On the other hand, I consider EPIC3-1 to be one of the greatest mods I've even played, and I go back to the early days of LG.
Oh, and my brand-new Flying Carpet absolutely ROCKS! Greatest bundle EVER!
Rex Joyner
Thanks for the experience, Rex! In all honesty, the experience of your table was right on in terms of what we were going for. This was the most common playtest experience (and certainly the median, if you know what I mean). I'm glad you enjoyed it, and I'm sorry you liked it less than EPIC3-1. I think we'll see people split down the middle on that one. I hope we can meet or exceed expectations with EPIC3-3.
Keith is right about the endurance aspect of the adventure. This will be a theme throughout the Epic campaign. It's going to take a bit for players to break away from the LFR norm, where resources mean next to nothing, but I very much intend to make sure that resources, and healing surges in particular, are a critical resource.
That doesn't mean that there will not be extended rests in Epic adventures. There certainly will be... I think EPIC4-1 has one at some point if I recall correctly
We do plan to push some characters to the limit (and beyond) at times, because let's face it - it's a great way to create drama and excitement.
Thanks for the experience, Rex! In all honesty, the experience of your table was right on in terms of what we were going for. This was the most common playtest experience (and certainly the median, if you know what I mean). I'm glad you enjoyed it, a
In all honesty, the experience of your table was right on in terms of what we were going for. This was the most common playtest experience (and certainly the median, if you know what I mean).
Dave and Keith got to this before I did, but we're all in agreement. Your write-up is right where we were targeting. Sounds like you had a good DM - be sure to thank him/her again! Running this adventure well requires more than the "typical prep work" for an LFR mod (or three).
I'm glad you enjoyed it, and I'm sorry you liked it less than EPIC3-1. I think we'll see people split down the middle on that one. I hope we can meet or exceed expectations with EPIC3-3.
Remember Dave - different players like different things from D&D. Don't set the bar so high that you need to get frustrated, all of your adventures are top-notch quality, and it's tough to compete with that level of awesomeness. If 1/3 of the people who play EPIC3-3 list it as their favorite of the three, consider the expectations met. (Figuring an "even split" between the three means that it is on-par with the first two.) Of course, feel free to exceed expectations!
Keith is right about the endurance aspect of the adventure. This will be a theme throughout the Epic campaign. It's going to take a bit for players to break away from the LFR norm, where resources mean next to nothing, but I very much intend to make sure that resources, and healing surges in particular, are a critical resource.
That doesn't mean that there will not be extended rests in Epic adventures. There certainly will be... I think EPIC4-1 has one at some point if I recall correctly
We certainly played with endurance/resource management a bit with the Sinmaker aspect - regaining resources at an unknown cost. I expect more twists and turns as the Epic storyline unfolds. I know Dave really wants EVERY player to feel pushed to the limit, and balancing that limit with the wide variance in player skill level and optimization-comfort-zone is a very difficult thing to do!
We do plan to push some characters to the limit (and beyond) at times, because let's face it - it's a great way to create drama and excitement.
And I'll reiterate - ESPECIALLY at Epic levels - it is VERY difficult to write for the varied PC-power-levels to provide this experience at every table. That's where the DM comes in . . .
LFR Epic adventures are meant to push some PCs to the limit (and beyond) at time. In running the adventure, keep the throttle one gear above the PCs comfort zone, but don't push it beyond what they can reasonably handle. Players like to be challenged, not overwhelmed, so do your best to run the adventure at an appropriate, challenging level for the PCs at your table. There is no one "correct difficulty" setting that will work for all tables. Players who are bringing their A-game and get average die rolls should be successful (though perhaps a little battered and bruised).
Dave and Keith got to this before I did, but we're all in agreement. Your write-up is right where we were targeting. Sounds like you had a good DM - be sure to thank him/her again! Running this adventure well requires more than the "typical prep wor
Remember Dave - different players like different things from D&D. Don't set the bar so high that you need to get frustrated, all of your adventures are top-notch quality, and it's tough to compete with that level of awesomeness. If 1/3 of the people who play EPIC3-3 list it as their favorite of the three, consider the expectations met. (Figuring an "even split" between the three means that it is on-par with the first two.) Of course, feel free to exceed expectations!
I agree
To be clear, I have two great authors, Larry and Tom, working on EPIC3-3 (other than heavy edits, I'm only writing a few encounters myself). The onus is really on them to make the adventure shine, and it looks like they have their work cut out for themselves!
I agree :)To be clear, I have two great authors, Larry and Tom, working on EPIC3-3 (other than heavy edits, I'm only writing a few encounters myself). The onus is really on them to make the adventure shine, and it looks like they have their work cut
*crosses fingers* here is to hoping 3-3 turns out as good if not better than the first 2.. not in the least because I may actually get to play that one
*crosses fingers* here is to hoping 3-3 turns out as good if not better than the first 2.. not in the least because I may actually get to play that one :)
Keith is right about the endurance aspect of the adventure. This will be a theme throughout the Epic campaign. It's going to take a bit for players to break away from the LFR norm, where resources mean next to nothing, but I very much intend to make sure that resources, and healing surges in particular, are a critical resource.
Resource management is one of my favorite aspects of D&D, so I am very much in favor of resource use not feeling meaningless. (For example, I did not enjoy the early, easy LFR mods where players threw around daily powers willy-nilly in combats they were already destroying, just 'cause they had the extra dailies to burn.) However, there are other ways to make adventures challenging than just damage and surges. Players have fun when their character gets the chance to shine and, of course, different characters excel at different things. Having a focus on surges means that some characters will always shine and others will always get pummelled into the ground. Which can quickly change things from "challenging" to just frustrating and unfun.
For example, I really liked one of the mechanics EPIC 3-2 used to handle resource expenditure: Spoiler:Show
Fatigue Points. It was great that there were multiple ways to get rid of them, instead of the boring ol' "lose a healing surge." PCs also had the option of keeping the Fatigue Point and just dealing with the associated consequences. It still requires resource management, but the players have control over how they want to expend their resources (healing surge, daily power, action point, or just accepting the penalties until they fatigue goes away on its own).
Having varied resource expenditure challenges will make the adventures interesting and fun (although still challenging) and will also give a variety of characters a chance to shine.
Resource management is one of my favorite aspects of D&D, so I am very much in favor of resource use not feeling meaningless. (For example, I did not enjoy the early, easy LFR mods where players threw around daily powers willy-nilly in combats they
Regarding EPIC 3-2's method of re-acquiring resources, Spoiler:Show
I hope not every adventure will feature a "deal with a devil" (Sinmaker). Some people -- I'm one of them -- really enjoy playing a purely heroic, knight-in-shining-armor PC. I don't mind (and sort of expect) that being a harder road than those who take the easy way out, but I hope the future adventures aren't being written assuming that the PCs will inevitably be forced to give in and take an unsavory deal just so they can survive.
Regarding EPIC 3-2's method of re-acquiring resources,Spoiler:
Show
I hope not every adventure will feature a "deal with a devil" (Sinmaker). Some people -- I'm one of them -- really enjoy playing a purely heroic, knight-in-shining-armor PC. I
You really can't do it that often. This once, especially in Carceri of all places? Absolutely. In lesser ways in other mods, to a limited extent? Okay. Especially if it highlights the benefits of sticking to your guns in some way, too.
But, LFR is at heart a heroic game, so I'd hope the epic campaign sticks to that premise.
You really can't do it that often. This once, especially in Carceri of all places? Absolutely. In lesser ways in other mods, to a limited extent? Okay. Especially if it highlights the benefits of sticking to your guns in some way, too.But, LFR is at
Regarding EPIC 3-2's method of re-acquiring resources, Spoiler:Show
I hope not every adventure will feature a "deal with a devil" (Sinmaker). Some people -- I'm one of them -- really enjoy playing a purely heroic, knight-in-shining-armor PC. I don't mind (and sort of expect) that being a harder road than those who take the easy way out, but I hope the future adventures aren't being written assuming that the PCs will inevitably be forced to give in and take an unsavory deal just so they can survive.
Generally speaking, "a deal with the devil" will certainly not be the only way to recover resources in most Epic adventures. There is one other scenario going forward where you'll have to "play ball" in order to rest, but it's slightly different.
We're trying to keep people on their toes, and keep things different and interesting.
However, the Epic campaign will feature a number of situations where the PCs are faced with a very difficult moral decision that has nothing to do with resrouce restoration - and that might be more difficult for the knight-in-shining-armor PCs. All I can say is - have fun with it.
Generally speaking, "a deal with the devil" will certainly not be the only way to recover resources in most Epic adventures. There is one other scenario going forward where you'll have to "play ball" in order to rest, but it's slightly different.We'r
I just finished DMing Epic 3-2 just a couple hours ago for the local regulars.
Two defenders, 3 leaders and a wizard. Fighter/PMC Ranger, Champion of Order, Ardent, Warlord, Cleric/Morning Lord and Wizard. Basically, every encounter was a grind and barely challenged the PCs until I started using a little DME or forced them to change their goals, ie Encounter 3B.
All I know, is that Morning Lord needs a major nerf and the feat Speaker of the Gods should be limited to Invoker Divine Powers.
I just finished DMing Epic 3-2 just a couple hours ago for the local regulars.Two defenders, 3 leaders and a wizard. Fighter/PMC Ranger, Champion of Order, Ardent, Warlord, Cleric/Morning Lord and Wizard. Basically, every encounter was a grind and ba
I just finished DMing Epic 3-2 just a couple hours ago for the local regulars.
Two defenders, 3 leaders and a wizard. Fighter/PMC Ranger, Champion of Order, Ardent, Warlord, Cleric/Morning Lord and Wizard. Basically, every encounter was a grind and barely challenged the PCs until I started using a little DME or forced them to change their goals, ie Encounter 3B.
All I know, is that Morning Lord needs a major nerf and the feat Speaker of the Gods should be limited to Invoker Divine Powers.
I'm gonna ask if you think this might have had anything to do with the fact that you had no real strikers. Sure, you had a PMC Ranger but you described him as a Defender so I'm gonna go out on a limb and expect that you meant that.
If you don't have strikers in any game, combats (especially) can grind.
I'm gonna ask if you think this might have had anything to do with the fact that you had no real strikers. Sure, you had a PMC Ranger but you described him as a Defender so I'm gonna go out on a limb and expect that you meant that. If you don't have
This will be a theme throughout the Epic campaign. It's going to take a bit for players to break away from the LFR norm, where resources mean next to nothing, but I very much intend to make sure that resources, and healing surges in particular, are a critical resource.
Personally, I find a focus on healing surges as a manageable resource to be fundamentally uninteresting.
* Healing surges aren't balanced between classes and builds.Show
How many healing surges a particular build gets is based simply on the stats it uses, with no thought apparently having been given to balancing that in any way.
It's not as if, say, an Int/Str or Int/Wis swordmage is inherently more powerful than an Int/Con swordmage to balance the fact that they have fewer healing surges. In fact, my general rule of thumb is that if a class has two builds, one Con-based and the other not, the Con-based build will--at least at the beginning--receive better support and be more powerful.
Focusing on healing surges just makes the imbalance all the more apparent.
* Healing surge depletion doesn't matter until you're out of them.Show
If the average PC has no healing surges left before the final combat starts, the adventure drained too many. If the average PC has healing surges left after the final combat, their depletion didn't matter.
That's a very narrow window, which leads to the next problem...
I would consider a 21st level melee striker with 138 hps and 9 healing surges to be above-average for their build and level, health-wise. (That's a starting 20 post-racial prime stat, Auspicious Birth background, starting 14 Con or 10 Con + Durable.) Average damage at 21st level is 29 single-target (ranging 25-50% higher for brutes or encounter powers), 22.5 multi-target.
In a six-encounter day, that means that the character gets to spend, on average, 1.5 surges per combat. If we assume that every surge spent is receiving an average leader bonus of 17.5 (which will not be true), that means that we're assuming this PC will, on average, take ~77 hps worth of damage each combat.
In a six-combat day, if a PC takes 3 hits per combat, they're pretty much drained when the final combat starts. If they take 4 hits per combat, they're probably not making it to the final combat; if they take 2 hits per combat, they're going to have healing surges left over at the end.
In an eight-encounter day, that means that the character is spending only 1 surge in every combat but one, and if they're hit more than twice a combat, they're going to be drained dry before the end.
That's a pretty fine line to walk. One unlucky round for the PCs in one combat can throw the entire adventure off.
This also means that every round of every combat matters. A DM can't speed things up at the end of a combat (either by a hard call or simply having creatures surrender or die quickly to wrap things up), because whether or not a creature gets in one last shot in the last round of a combat could actually affect the entire adventure, as meaningless as it might be for the combat itself.
That removes a pretty useful tool from the DM's toolbox, which is particularly important when you're talking about 18-hour adventures.
* Longer days require occasional boring combats.Show
The flipside of the above is that there will be combats where the PCs have a lucky round and/or the DM an unlucky one, and the combat is a walk in the park without the PCs needing to expend meaningful resources.
The problem here is that the DM has to restrain himself from changing anything to make the combat more challenging. The combat where the striker doesn't spend a single healing surge is needed to balance the combat where he goes unconscious. (In fact, if they don't have occasional walk-in-the-park combats, they're unlikely to make it to the end.) This means that if the DM fudges anything to make the combat more challenging, he's being unfair to the PCs and may end up causing them to fail the adventure when they should not have.
Of course, the cost is that even an unchallenging epic combat is still going to take at least an hour, but it's going to be an hour that will not be anywhere near as enjoyable as it could have been.
* Focus on healing surges increases the incentive to alpha-strike.Show
If one last creature taking one last shot might make you have to spend one more healing surge, which could turn out to be vitally important by the time the final combat rolls around, every combat becomes about killing things as quickly as you can.
I think there's already enough reasons for PCs to maximize initiative, focus-fire and kill things before they have a chance to do anything. We really don't need any more.
To be honest, I think focusing on managing of healing surges leads to a skewed version of D&D. There's a reason you don't see advice in the DMG about how to structure your adventure so that PCs need to fight X number of combats in a day, failing the entire adventure if they can't make it to the last one.
Sure, you will likely have more encounters in a home game than the average LFR adventure, but there you also have a DM who can alter things on the fly, and determines on a case-by-case basis when the party can take an extended rest.
It's a completely one-dimensional way of determining whether a group is sufficiently optimized. It would be like having an entire adventure in which you could only use basic attacks--certain builds would shine (Essentials martial classes, for example), simply by the way the class is designed; others, who are ostensibly balanced with the former group, will not, and there's very little the PCs can do about it. That sort of thing might be interesting to do occasionally, but not as a routine.
I'm a bit disappointed to hear that healing surge management will be a theme of the epic campaign.
Personally, I find a focus on healing surges as a manageable resource to be fundamentally uninteresting.* Healing surges aren't balanced between classes and builds.
Show
How many healing surges a particular build gets is based simply on the st
I just finished DMing Epic 3-2 just a couple hours ago for the local regulars.
Two defenders, 3 leaders and a wizard. Fighter/PMC Ranger, Champion of Order, Ardent, Warlord, Cleric/Morning Lord and Wizard. Basically, every encounter was a grind and barely challenged the PCs until I started using a little DME or forced them to change their goals, ie Encounter 3B.
All I know, is that Morning Lord needs a major nerf and the feat Speaker of the Gods should be limited to Invoker Divine Powers.
Hibiki,
As you know I was in that party as the warlord and if it were not for you softballing those encounters, that party would have TPK'd.
As far as I am concerned, that party HAD NO BUSINESS doing an Epic adventure together. It was a case of SUPREME ARROGANCE to think that we as a party only had to show up and that the party would be successful in this module.
I do believe the authors got the base level of challenge correct for this adventure. If the party is comprised of fraudalent heroes, the truth will come out in this module.
I want to sincerely thank Dave Kay and his authors for writing this and would have greatly enjoyed this adventure with another party.
Hibiki,As you know I was in that party as the warlord and if it were not for you softballing those encounters, that party would have TPK'd.As far as I am concerned, that party HAD NO BUSINESS doing an Epic adventure together. It was a case of SUPREM
I just finished DMing Epic 3-2 just a couple hours ago for the local regulars.
Two defenders, 3 leaders and a wizard. Fighter/PMC Ranger, Champion of Order, Ardent, Warlord, Cleric/Morning Lord and Wizard. Basically, every encounter was a grind and barely challenged the PCs until I started using a little DME or forced them to change their goals, ie Encounter 3B.
All I know, is that Morning Lord needs a major nerf and the feat Speaker of the Gods should be limited to Invoker Divine Powers.
I'm gonna ask if you think this might have had anything to do with the fact that you had no real strikers. Sure, you had a PMC Ranger but you described him as a Defender so I'm gonna go out on a limb and expect that you meant that.
If you don't have strikers in any game, combats (especially) can grind.
Tirianmal,
The Fighter PMC Ranger was a last minute add to the party. The player that should have been there had his wisdom teeth pulled and could not make it for this game.
Originally, the Figher/Ranger was advertised as a striker and was not one. The effect of this change was a significant reduction of damage output. For example, our normal guy would put out 75 points of damage on a basic attack. Times 2 for 150 hitpoints of damage because then I could "Direct the Strike" him. Yesterday, the Paladin, the Fighter/Ranger and the Ardent all roughly due about 25 points of damage on a basic attack. Multiple that by 2 because of me and we get about 50 points per round. So in essence we were taking 3 rounds to get the same output of damage if our normal guy was there.
With that as a theme that was prevalent all through the module... so encounters that would take normally an hour would take an hour plus 30 to 45 minutes... multiple that out by the number of combat encounters we get a big over run on time to complete the adventure.
What bothers me the most in all this was that I tried to address the lack of damage output prior to sitting down at the table and the possible consequences and the paths that it would the party down and I was largely ignored.
I'm gonna ask if you think this might have had anything to do with the fact that you had no real strikers. Sure, you had a PMC Ranger but you described him as a Defender so I'm gonna go out on a limb and expect that you meant that. If you don't have
Regarding EPIC 3-2's method of re-acquiring resources, Spoiler:Show
I hope not every adventure will feature a "deal with a devil" (Sinmaker). Some people -- I'm one of them -- really enjoy playing a purely heroic, knight-in-shining-armor PC. I don't mind (and sort of expect) that being a harder road than those who take the easy way out, but I hope the future adventures aren't being written assuming that the PCs will inevitably be forced to give in and take an unsavory deal just so they can survive.
Generally speaking, "a deal with the devil" will certainly not be the only way to recover resources in most Epic adventures. There is one other scenario going forward where you'll have to "play ball" in order to rest, but it's slightly different.
We're trying to keep people on their toes, and keep things different and interesting.
However, the Epic campaign will feature a number of situations where the PCs are faced with a very difficult moral decision that has nothing to do with resrouce restoration - and that might be more difficult for the knight-in-shining-armor PCs. All I can say is - have fun with it.
In regards to that, I believe most PCs will already had their "cheeries" busted on that due to playing adventures CORE 2-11 / CORE 2-12.
In character, I had no problem dealing with the NPC because the precedent was already set because the character already had to do something similar in the adventure I cite above to be successful in the overall goal.
My character views situations in high paragon and in epic that there isnt situations that are plainly black or white... that some things will be gray and the question to be asked and answered will be "What is the greater good that I am wanting to achieve?"
As a player I welcome these kinds of dilemmas because it is more realistic and calls for what I term as "True Roleplay".
Generally speaking, "a deal with the devil" will certainly not be the only way to recover resources in most Epic adventures. There is one other scenario going forward where you'll have to "play ball" in order to rest, but it's slightly different.We'r
This will be a theme throughout the Epic campaign. It's going to take a bit for players to break away from the LFR norm, where resources mean next to nothing, but I very much intend to make sure that resources, and healing surges in particular, are a critical resource.
Personally, I find a focus on healing surges as a manageable resource to be fundamentally uninteresting.
I'm a bit disappointed to hear that healing surge management will be a theme of the epic campaign.
You mistake us. Healing surge management isn't a "theme" of the Epic campaign. It's just a part of D&D. The Epic campaign has the luxury of featuring 3-round adventures, so a fundamental resource of D&D which never mattered in LFR before suddenly does. That's all.
No one is "focusing" on healing surge management. It's just another resource, like daily class powers and daily item powers. That's all. In fact, when you play EPIC3-2, you'll see a new mechanic that Keith and Dan came up with that takes the focus away from healing surges, and let's players choose which resources they need to better manage.
Personally, I find a focus on healing surges as a manageable resource to be fundamentally uninteresting.I'm a bit disappointed to hear that healing surge management will be a theme of the epic campaign.[/quote]You mistake us. Healing surge management
Originally, the Figher/Ranger was advertised as a striker and was not one. The effect of this change was a significant reduction of damage output. For example, our normal guy would put out 75 points of damage on a basic attack. Times 2 for 150 hitpoints of damage because then I could "Direct the Strike" him. Yesterday, the Paladin, the Fighter/Ranger and the Ardent all roughly due about 25 points of damage on a basic attack. Multiple that by 2 because of me and we get about 50 points per round. So in essence we were taking 3 rounds to get the same output of damage if our normal guy was there.
With that as a theme that was prevalent all through the module... so encounters that would take normally an hour would take an hour plus 30 to 45 minutes... multiple that out by the number of combat encounters we get a big over run on time to complete the adventure.
What bothers me the most in all this was that I tried to address the lack of damage output prior to sitting down at the table and the possible consequences and the paths that it would the party down and I was largely ignored.
So you're more or less agreeing with me. I wasn't trying to bust your chops, I was just pointing out that this really had less to do with the way the mod was written and more with the make-up of the party.
Escape is always an option. Well, almost always. It's not necessarily a great one but sometimes ...
So you're more or less agreeing with me. I wasn't trying to bust your chops, I was just pointing out that this really had less to do with the way the mod was written and more with the make-up of the party.Escape is always an option. Well, almost alwa
Played this at a regional con with a Bard (unsure of subtype), Fighter, Infernal Pact Warlock, Bravura Warlord, Brutal Scoundrel, Shielding Swordmage (me). WARNING - not only am I going to spoil this mod, but I'm also going to spoil other mods. Avert your eyes, o spoiler averse.
Part I - Please Keep Hands and Feet Inside the Moving VehicleShow
The first part of the mod (before Agathys) plays out like MOON 1-2. Get on boat given to you by a young princeling a greater deity, run into islands occupied by fey giants, giants undead, lycanthropes fey, and a local lord random demons (slight deviation here). Kill some of those guys, talk to some of those guys. Island hopping was fun in heroic tier - I was hoping for something more interesting. Not really sold on why Corellon's boat can't get us to Agathys straight away. Based on the time requirements, Corellon's skiff is travelling at supersonic (possibly even relativistic) speeds. Otherwise, the islands are close together and there's no reason that players can't take control and guide the craft themselves.
More importantly, if no one in the party chose to sign Sinmaker's contract, these encounters serve only to be speedbumps in the way of the PCs, with no real purpose. Wouldn't this whole section have been better if there was something in it for the whole party, and not just those who sign Sinmaker's contract? Like doing favors for the lords of the islands give the players some kind of boon? It would sort of foreshadow the second to last encounter. Otherwise, it's just railroading.
If anything, this part of the mod could/should have been more like the 1st part of the more well regarded CORM 1-2.
First Encounter in Agathys - In our run, we crushed the angels in the 1st round (thanks Stall Tactics?), triggering the abominations early. Upon reading the mod, I disliked the angel/marut swapping places with the abominations AND providing resources for parties who held back. I understand that you, personally, have a problem with the alpha-strike (since the whole module is designed to foil it, and your distaste for it is well-documented), but: a) A lot of players just like stomping the **** out of stuff b) IMO, punishing or preventing the alpha-strike is more palatable than REWARDING the alternative, which is encouraging bad player tactics. Players do it because it works (much like science). Oddly enough, in CORM 2-4 when players were instructed to not alpha-strike, it was clear, and fit very well with the situation. Here it feels a little forced - why would implacable beings of law suddenly decide that they were wrong? The encounter should have had a real skill challenge component where you can convince the angels/maruts to stop beating on you.
Second Encounter in Agathys - our DM (overreaching, arrogant prick that he is ) decided we weren't challenged enough in the 1st encounter and took our short rest away, almost killing a few of us in the third wave.
Third Encounter in Agathys - I vehemently object to the use of "vulnerable 10" just for existing. It is a huge amount of damage that can be piled on. If you can complete the skill challenge before you drop any monsters, you're looking at up to 80 damage/round (all monsters + hazard hitting and dealing ongoing damage). Not too many characters can survive that much damage for long. I would have preferred to see an auto-damage at start of turn (30 or so) - but you already used that trick in the demon-cave encounter. At least in that encounter, you can get out of the auto-damage and still participate! An effect that strong should be an attack, or a save ends effect (with a -2 penalty to saves, minimum) that can be reapplied when the vortex makes its attack. You can use the vulnerable 10 to ramp up the challenge for parties that want it. When we played it, it was a long grind since our Bard and Fighter didn't use many resources, since they were afraid of being screwed out their short rest again (rightfully so!), so the accumulated damage was pretty crazy.
Fourth Encounter in Agathys - Hungering Dark was cool. DM gave us quite a bit of time to strategize (which sort of compensates for taking our short rest away between the 1st and 2nd encounters), and since we still had resources, we had stun and dominate left in the tank. That let us save everyone except I think the servant of Loviatar. Best encounter of the mod. Unfortunate that it took 10 hours to get here. Really could have used Sinmaker's restoratives here - "I just happen to have one left...I'll just need your authorization right here..."
Fifth Encounter in Agathys - Time restricted because of con setting, we played this out 2nd edition style (no map). With all the prisoners saved, we bumrushed the remaining skill challenge stuff with our best skills and hightailed it out of there.
I appreciate that you took on the challenge of writing the mod, but it falls short of the terrific effort of EPIC 3-1. Perhaps I should recalibrate my expectations?
tl;dr - First part was long, boring, pointless, and decidely not-Epic. The second part was decidely Epic, but felt a hair short of being unduly punishing.
Played this at a regional con with a Bard (unsure of subtype), Fighter, Infernal Pact Warlock, Bravura Warlord, Brutal Scoundrel, Shielding Swordmage (me). WARNING - not only am I going to spoil this mod, but I'm also going to spoil other mods. Ave
The big takeaway for others reviewing this thread is that this mod can take ~15 hours to fully enjoy. It was specifically not written or designed for convention play. Playing in a time-restrictive environment will lessen the experience.
Carceri is a fantastic location, and part 1 will appeal to explorer-type players, especially with time allotted to explore each of the islands. If you do some research on Carceri, you should be pleased with how well the mod presents published cannon and lore of the plane. You do get some choices (2 of 3 combats), but the nature of Carceri requires one to pass through the otter planes ("islands") to reach Agathys.
You mis-interpret the design intent of the angel combat. It is fully intended as "self-scaling" for the adventure. Remember, LFR adventures need to be accessible to groups of varied power levels. Those groups who are struggling at this point need resources to continue the adventure, while those who can overpower encounters in a couple of rounds typically need more challenge. This encounter provides a tool to raise the challenge level for strong groups, and lower the challenge for weaker groups. "Held back" is the wrong way to catergorize groups who get a few resources back. (And I disagree with your assessment that it encourages bad player tactics - alpha-striking every encounter is bad tactics, as the challenge to defeat every encounter should not be alpha-strike tactics. But again, a group that uses less optimized tactics is more likely to need the extra help htan those with the ability to defeat an encounter in 1 round.)
Sorry to hear you had a grindy encounter, but it doesn't look like a mod issue led to this.
The Sinmaker quote you gave is exactly the type of thing he would say . . . He is another tool for the DM to provide aid to PCs who are having a difficult time. Scaling for different optimization levels will be a challenge throughout EPIC. If you are at the higher end of optimization, you should expect that any "chance to go easier on the PCs" options will not apply to you.
Very sad you didn't get to experience the last encounter. IMO, it is the most engaging in the adventure. Groups who run out of time are really missing out on a great experience if this encounter gets cut.
I can't stress this enough, this adventure should be scheduled over two full days, or 4 con slots, for maximum enjoyment. (And at a con, if the adventure somehow finishes in 3 slots, the table can easily do a pick-up game with other PCs to round out the time.)
Thanks for providing your feedback!The big takeaway for others reviewing this thread is that this mod can take ~15 hours to fully enjoy. It was specifically not written or designed for convention play. Playing in a time-restrictive environment will l
Most of your comments are likely caused because of differences in preferences to style, because my group prefered this adventure to EPIC3-1. The followng is a bit odd though: Spoiler:Show
You are complaining about the punshment for alfa-strikers in the angel encounter? But why would you even use alfa-strike? Here is a group of angels, inclusing a servant of Ilmater, a good aligned deity, and maruts who clearly do not understand why you are there, and you immediately retaliate with full force if they attack you? My group could have gone full well go for alfa-strike, but they choose not to. They first tried to talk, and by the time they realized the maruts were not going to be swayed the abonimations appeared. Instead of seeing this as an anti-alfa strike, my group saw it as a compensation for people that tried to talk as opposed to fight and as a result of that choice took damage. Then again, that might very well also be because of a difference in play style...
Most of your comments are likely caused because of differences in preferences to style, because my group prefered this adventure to EPIC3-1. The followng is a bit odd though:Spoiler:
Show
You are complaining about the punshment for alfa-strike
Here it feels a little forced - why would implacable beings of law suddenly decide that they were wrong? The encounter should have had a real skill challenge component where you can convince the angels/maruts to stop beating on you.
As an analogy to illustrate the story behind the encounter . . .
You need (for whatever reason) to break into a SuperMax prison which houses life-without-parole and death row prisoners. (Perhaps you need to talk to one, as they have life-changing information.)
In the depths of SuperMax, a group of guards finds you - where you clearly do not belong. They attack you, you fight back. There's no amount of convincing that's going to get these guards to let you go about your business.
Twelve seconds later, the alarm goes off and all of the doors in the prison open. The guards now have a much bigger problem than you. All of the prisoners are out. They don't think they were wrong for stopping you, but at this point you are now an asset rather than a liability. If you're willing to help defeat these prisoners, they are needed in another wing to do the same.
They may even give you the pass-codes and protocols to move more easily through the prison - perhaps even tell you where the infirmary is if you are wounded. Of course, if they are unconscious, they cannot pass along this useful information.
That's the story behind the angel encounter. Several waves of abominations that just broke through are more of a threat than you. Deputizing the party is a better solution for them than spending more resources fighting you instead of the abominations.
Much of the encounter relies on the group of players and the DM. The DM can be anywhere on the spectrum - from rewarding PCs who show restraint to providing a better combat challenge to PCs who are just looking to beat stuff up.
In your case, you got to beat up two waves of monsters. Since you pointed out that some players like this, why is it a problem that the encounter was run that way for you? From your summary, it seems that the optimal tactics for your group for the outcome you wanted should have been to use your daze/stun powers to slow down the angels so they would listen to you, rather than blowing them up in a round.
"we blew them up" = "here's more stuff to blow up" "we refused to fight them and took damage from this approach" = "here is some recovery of your resources"
Again, the encounter is designed to tailor to groups with different play styles; certainly not to "punish" any particular play style.
As an analogy to illustrate the story behind the encounter . . .Spoiler:
Show
You need (for whatever reason) to break into a SuperMax prison which houses life-without-parole and death row prisoners. (Perhaps you need to talk to one, as they ha
Wow, yeah, I think Dan and Pieter covered it all perfectly.
There is certainly tremendous variety in adventure type as well as player preference. If you noticed all the names on the cover, EPIC3-2 was playtested by 10 distinct groups of players. If most (or even some) of the groups shared your perspective, we'd have recognized that something was wrong and we needed to change it. In fact, after the first pass, we had to make some significant changes (to my encounters, no less). However, that was certainly not the case. That only goes to show that while you may not have enjoyed the "island-hopping" and exploration aspects of the adventure, many others did. If your entire group didn't enjoy it, there may have been an issue with how it was run, the phenomenon of one player's negative reaction having an effect on the other players, or just a coincidental occurrence where all of the players didn't like that particular adventure type.
More to Dan's point, there were certainly some clever mechanisms in the adventure to allow it to "auto-scale" depending on groups' power levels. I couldn't explain it better than he did.
While I appreciate the comparison to MOON1-2, I've played MOON1-2 multiple times, and I've played EPIC3-2. Apart from the concept of "island-hopping," I see almost nothing else to compare. This is what D&D is - travel to different locales and fight things. Sure, we wrap a story around it, but in essence, that's what the majority of the game consists of.
It's unfortunate that you didn't enjoy EPIC3-2 as much as you enjoyed EPIC3-1. The upcoming adventures should offer some nice diversity that you might appreciate. EPIC3-3 and EPIC4-1 are now underway, and EPIC4-2 is in the proposal stage.
Wow, yeah, I think Dan and Pieter covered it all perfectly.There is certainly tremendous variety in adventure type as well as player preference. If you noticed all the names on the cover, EPIC3-2 was playtested by 10 distinct groups of players. If mo
Thanks for providing your feedback! The big takeaway for others reviewing this thread is that this mod can take ~15 hours to fully enjoy.
..and thats a HUGE problem. 8 hour mods are pushing the playability envelope. 12 hour mods take significant extra effort to schedule even outside of convention time limitations. 16 hour mods are UNPLAYABLE. Period. This mod needs to be gutted to fit in the appropriate time slot and all further mods need to make every effort to run in 10-12 not 12-16 hours.
In case you didnt notice, you have zero play reports outside of test that actually played the whole mod. Expecting to find 16 hours of playtime just isnt realistic.
..and thats a HUGE problem. 8 hour mods are pushing the playability envelope. 12 hour mods take significant extra effort to schedule even outside of convention time limitations. 16 hour mods are UNPLAYABLE. Period. This mod needs to be gutted to fit
In case you didnt notice, you have zero play reports outside of test that actually played the whole mod. Expecting to find 16 hours of playtime just isnt realistic.
As the guy who sees all the results that people report online via the survey link, I can state that this is untrue. We have in fact gotten quite a few play reports on EPIC3-2.
More generally, the fundamental structure of the Epic Campaign (one adventure per character level) was set up around the assumption that the adventures would play better at home (due to their length and complexity) than in a convention / time-restricted environment. That is not something that we intend to change.
As the guy who sees all the results that people report online via the survey link, I can state that this is untrue. We have in fact gotten quite a few play reports on EPIC3-2. More generally, the fundamental structure of the Epic Campaign (one adve
In case you didnt notice, you have zero play reports outside of test that actually played the whole mod. Expecting to find 16 hours of playtime just isnt realistic.
As the guy who sees all the results that people report online via the survey link, I can state that this is untrue. We have in fact gotten quite a few play reports on EPIC3-2.
More generally, the fundamental structure of the Epic Campaign (one adventure per character level) was set up around the assumption that the adventures would play better at home (due to their length and complexity) than in a convention / time-restricted environment. That is not something that we intend to change.
...and from reading this thread most of them are finishing with "and we skipped the last encounter."
And the further point is that there is no such thing as an environment that is not "time-restricted". You're pushing it...heck no, you maxed it out with a mod thats designed to run in a 12 hour time frame. Designing a mod that breaks that frame makes it unplayable in a realistic sense. Trying to design these as mini-conventions in their own right just makes them long, tedious grindfests that can be annoying to play and a royal PITA to DM.
As the guy who sees all the results that people report online via the survey link, I can state that this is untrue. We have in fact gotten quite a few play reports on EPIC3-2. More generally, the fundamental structure of the Epic Campaign (one adve
And the further point is that there is no such thing as an environment that is not "time-restricted". You're pushing it...heck no, you maxed it out with a mod thats designed to run in a 12 hour time frame. Designing a mod that breaks that frame makes it unplayable in a realistic sense. Trying to design these as mini-conventions in their own right just makes them long, tedious grindfests that can be annoying to play and a royal PITA to DM.
Calling the adventure "unplayable" due to it's length is a stretch. Difficult to play as a "one-shot" or at a convention? Sure. But calling it completely unplayable is ridiculous. The admins have repeatedly said that the epic campaign is designed for and best experienced in a home setting.
The Scales of War adventure requires over 300 hours of play. Does that make it an "unplayable" adventure? No. Is a group going to play the entire Scales of War adventure in a month and a half by playing every day for weeks straight? No. D&D is generally designed and intended to be played in chunks (play a few hours every week or every month or whatever). The idea that all adventures can be played in 4 hours is an artificial notion. D&D wasn't designed to be played that way and LFR has already seen numerous problems with it (such as difficulty making appropriately challenging adventures for that short time slot and meta-gaming about number of encounters per adventure).
Yes, there is such a thing as a setting that is not time-restricted. People have been playing D&D in non time-restricted environments for decades. In a home game, if everyone spends the majority of the time chit-chatting about the most recent errata and you only end up doing a single encounter that night..., no big deal, you just pick up where you left off next time. The epic games are certainly doable, especially when broken up into smaller chunks.
There's no requirement that you have to play one of the Epic adventures in one sitting or one weekend. (If fact, that's generally not a good/fun way to play it.) Play half of the mod this week and the other half next week or next month or whenever you can get everyone together to play again. Everyone can write down how many surges they have left, which daily powers they have used, etc. and then pick up where you left off next time. It may be hard for some players or groups to be able to do, but the adventure length doesn't make it "unplayable." The epic campaign is not for everyone and will not work for everyone.
Calling the adventure "unplayable" due to it's length is a stretch. Difficult to play as a "one-shot" or at a convention? Sure. But calling it completely unplayable is ridiculous. The admins have repeatedly said that the epic campaign is designed
..and from reading this thread most of them are finishing with "and we skipped the last encounter."
And the further point is that there is no such thing as an environment that is not "time-restricted". You're pushing it...heck no, you maxed it out with a mod thats designed to run in a 12 hour time frame. Designing a mod that breaks that frame makes it unplayable in a realistic sense. Trying to design these as mini-conventions in their own right just makes them long, tedious grindfests that can be annoying to play and a royal PITA to DM.
Don't these mods now have "natural break points" where you can stop and then continue next week with the same (or a different group)? IIRC the problem with playing more than 10h straight was voiced when the structure of the epic campaign was first discussed and at the end they said that while supposed to be played in one piece, the mods would offer some opportunities to break them into three 4h or two 6h sessions.
Don't these mods now have "natural break points" where you can stop and then continue next week with the same (or a different group)? IIRC the problem with playing more than 10h straight was voiced when the structure of the epic campaign was first di
...and from reading this thread most of them are finishing with "and we skipped the last encounter."
I have played this adventure twice and I did not skip any of the encounters either time.
The last encounter is a lot of fun. I wouldn't recommend skipping it or rushing through it.
I have played this adventure twice and I did not skip any of the encounters either time. The last encounter is a lot of fun. I wouldn't recommend skipping it or rushing through it.
Don't these mods now have "natural break points" where you can stop and then continue next week with the same (or a different group)? IIRC the problem with playing more than 10h straight was voiced when the structure of the epic campaign was first discussed and at the end they said that while supposed to be played in one piece, the mods would offer some opportunities to break them into three 4h or two 6h sessions.
Yes, the adventure does have natural break points.
Believing that "3 LFR Epic mods" can be played in a 12-hour slot is an unrealistic expectation, due to the nature of the game.
LFR heroic adventures take 3-4 hours. So, 3 of these mods will take roughly 9-12 hours.
There are few who disagree that Paragon adventures take longer to play than heroic adventures, often due to players slowing down because they have additional options. It is common for people to comment that an LFR paragon adventure will take 4-5 hours if you don't cut corners.
Add another complexity level to Epic adventures. I'd expect 3 such adventures to take significantly more than 12 hours.
It is entirely possibly to complete in under 12 hours, but the group needs to stay focused and keep moving, minimize breaks, etc. That's a tall order for one day of gaming!
Be aware of your environment and the time restrictions. There are many things that can be cut, and many more that can be extended. Maximum enjoyment will be attained by those who are not forced to play this adventure under time restriction.
Yes, the adventure does have natural break points.Believing that "3 LFR Epic mods" can be played in a 12-hour slot is an unrealistic expectation, due to the nature of the game.LFR heroic adventures take 3-4 hours. So, 3 of these mods will take roughl
The adventures do have natural break points so that you can stop and pick up at a later time, just like a home game. We try to provide multiple options for breakpoints (i.e. not just a halfway point, but also a few that mark 1/3 and 2/3), although it doesn't always make sense, depending on the storyline.
Sean is right in the sense that we're not trying to cram everything into a 12-hour slot. There's a big story to tell, and we're aiming for approximately 12 hours of gameplay, but people move at different paces, and we're not encouraging people to skip encounters to finish in 12 hours. However, to be fair, one in every three Epic adventures will be a DDXP premiere (EPIC3-1 is an example, and EPIC4-1 and EPIC5-1 will follow suit). With that, I have reminded the authors of those adventures that they should be fully playable within 12 hours (without forcing people to hurry up or skip encounters), so that people can get the full experience at DDXP.
So, to set clear expectations, EPIC3-1, 4-1, 5-1, and 6-1 (the finale) will be playable in 12 hours (or three convention slots). EPIC3-2,3-3, 4-2, 4-3, 5-2, and 5-3 may or may not. We'll strive to time-box them to within 10-15 hours - and our playtest tables will help us determine whether we've hit that mark.
And lastly, as a friendly reminder, try to keep your feedback constructive. 22_Over_7 did a good job keeping his experiences uninsulting. I have yet to hear anyone refer to one of the Epic adventures as a "tedious grindfest" (unless you have no striker in your party - then I guess it could be, but at least be objective about it and realize that the adventure isn't the culprit).
The adventures do have natural break points so that you can stop and pick up at a later time, just like a home game. We try to provide multiple options for breakpoints (i.e. not just a halfway point, but also a few that mark 1/3 and 2/3), although it
Calling the adventure "unplayable" due to it's length is a stretch. Difficult to play as a "one-shot" or at a convention? Sure. But calling it completely unplayable is ridiculous. The admins have repeatedly said that the epic campaign is designed for and best experienced in a home setting.
The Scales of War adventure requires over 300 hours of play. Does that make it an "unplayable" adventure? No. Is a group going to play the entire Scales of War adventure in a month and a half by playing every day for weeks straight? No. D&D is generally designed and intended to be played in chunks (play a few hours every week or every month or whatever). The idea that all adventures can be played in 4 hours is an artificial notion. D&D wasn't designed to be played that way and LFR has already seen numerous problems with it (such as difficulty making appropriately challenging adventures for that short time slot and meta-gaming about number of encounters per adventure).
Yes, there is such a thing as a setting that is not time-restricted. People have been playing D&D in non time-restricted environments for decades. In a home game, if everyone spends the majority of the time chit-chatting about the most recent errata and you only end up doing a single encounter that night..., no big deal, you just pick up where you left off next time. The epic games are certainly doable, especially when broken up into smaller chunks.
There's no requirement that you have to play one of the Epic adventures in one sitting or one weekend. (If fact, that's generally not a good/fun way to play it.) Play half of the mod this week and the other half next week or next month or whenever you can get everyone together to play again. Everyone can write down how many surges they have left, which daily powers they have used, etc. and then pick up where you left off next time. It may be hard for some players or groups to be able to do, but the adventure length doesn't make it "unplayable." The epic campaign is not for everyone and will not work for everyone.
I've not had problems playing either epic mod in 12 hours. Both have clocked in at closer to 11, I'd say. We split them into 3 4 hour chucks for scheduling reasons, and didn't go over on any given day.
I've been advising people to aim at cutting them in half, rather than thirds. It's a bit smoother then. But ... thirds does work.
I've not had problems playing either epic mod in 12 hours. Both have clocked in at closer to 11, I'd say. We split them into 3 4 hour chucks for scheduling reasons, and didn't go over on any given day.I've been advising people to aim at cutting the
We recently ran both EPIC3-1 and EPIC 3-2 at a local con, one a day. (Note I didn't run or play any of them.) None of the tables have trouble finishing and they took ample lunch and dinner breaks. The adventure is certainly playable.
We recently ran both EPIC3-1 and EPIC 3-2 at a local con, one a day. (Note I didn't run or play any of them.) None of the tables have trouble finishing and they took ample lunch and dinner breaks. The adventure is certainly playable.
Calling the adventure "unplayable" due to it's length is a stretch. Difficult to play as a "one-shot" or at a convention? Sure. But calling it completely unplayable is ridiculous. The admins have repeatedly said that the epic campaign is designed for and best experienced in a home setting.
Utterly irrelevant what setting its in. How often does someone want play the same adventure from dawn-til-dusk just to finish? That is the overwhelming majority of the play descriptions in this thread and the anecdotal evidence I've heard/seen.
The Scales of War adventure requires over 300 hours of play....
Again, not a valid comparison. LFR requires that the table that started the mod, play it thru. That fact alone will restrict the running of the mod to one sitting in most occasions. Forget convention settings, getting 6 people with real lives and real schedules together to spend 2 or more days playing one adventure is unrealistic at best and makes the adventure "unplayable" in anything less than a close knit home group. Key thing here is that is exactly what LFR is set up to avoid doing. Comparing it to an adventure thats designed to have start/stop points, level breaks, table realignments and players dropping in/out is worthless. If you want it to act like scales of war, write the whole thing and release it as a block that takes you from 21-30. No, I dont think thats a good idea, but then it would be like scales...
Its a great mod with a decent story, the problem is that the "story" is the last 6-8 hours of the mod and the first 6-8 hours are spent in "filler-time" doing nothing but wasting party resources to make the last 1/2 a challenge. Whats wrong with designing a mod that starts with the last half and is a challenge from the get-go and runs in 10-12 hours consistently? Like say 3-1 did?
Utterly irrelevant what setting its in. How often does someone want play the same adventure from dawn-til-dusk just to finish? That is the overwhelming majority of the play descriptions in this thread and the anecdotal evidence I've heard/seen.Again,
Utterly irrelevant what setting its in. How often does someone want play the same adventure from dawn-til-dusk just to finish? That is the overwhelming majority of the play descriptions in this thread and the anecdotal evidence I've heard/seen. ...-stuff snipped-
I think this is going to turn out to be a case of agreeing to disagree, but if it helps I am perfectly willing to accept my opinion being wrong, uninformed, to the detriment of players everywhere and generally stupid? Not that I am about to change my opinion mind you
I think this is going to turn out to be a case of agreeing to disagree, but if it helps I am perfectly willing to accept my opinion being wrong, uninformed, to the detriment of players everywhere and generally stupid? Not that I am about to change my
I think we already did the "3-rounds sucks" hoops back before epic3-1 came out, even, so I don't think we need to do it again now.
Thats the point. Three rounds already sucks, so planning for 4+ should be a no-no. With several reports of this mod already running into 17+ hours to complete, why dont we actually aim for three with the rest? Even those not DDXP premiers...
Thats the point. Three rounds already sucks, so planning for 4+ should be a no-no. With several reports of this mod already running into 17+ hours to complete, why dont we actually aim for three with the rest? Even those not DDXP premiers...
12-15 hours is 3 4-5 hour slots, and that's how long the module takes. Some tables may experience variation above that - much like some will experience variation below that.
I've seen epic3-1 played through in 7 hours, which is only 1.5 slots - I could easily see someone at a convention being upset that they paid for 3 slots and didn't get enough. On the other hand, it mostly requires people showing up with a group optimized enough to pull it off, so there ya go.
So, yeah, for epic stuff plan for 3 sessions of gaming. Or even just get together as a dnd group and play without preconceived schedules and limits - it starts when it starts, ends when it ends, and remember to RP as much as folks want, and not skimp on the ending. There's 4 months between epic modules. No need to hurry.
12-15 hours is 3 4-5 hour slots, and that's how long the module takes. Some tables may experience variation above that - much like some will experience variation below that.I've seen epic3-1 played through in 7 hours, which is only 1.5 slots - I coul
I think we already did the "3-rounds sucks" hoops back before epic3-1 came out, even, so I don't think we need to do it again now.
Thats the point. Three rounds already sucks, so planning for 4+ should be a no-no. With several reports of this mod already running into 17+ hours to complete, why dont we actually aim for three with the rest? Even those not DDXP premiers...
No, I'm pretty sure you missed the point. We've already hashed the length issue out and don't need to do it again. Keithric has summed it up quite nicely, there's really nothing more to add.
Thats the point. Three rounds already sucks, so planning for 4+ should be a no-no. With several reports of this mod already running into 17+ hours to complete, why dont we actually aim for three with the rest? Even those not DDXP premiers...[/quote]N
And lastly, as a friendly reminder, try to keep your feedback constructive. 22_Over_7 did a good job keeping his experiences uninsulting. I have yet to hear anyone refer to one of the Epic adventures as a "tedious grindfest" (unless you have no striker in your party - then I guess it could be, but at least be objective about it and realize that the adventure isn't the culprit).
I think that was me who stated that...
Just to be clear.... the tedious grindfest I experienced when playing this mod was NOT because of the content of the mod but CLEARLY due to the limitations of the party assembled.
As for comparisons between this mod and EPIC 3-1, I found that this one was more enjoyable due to the story and felt more of an adventure.
I would like to state that in my opinion, it is unfair to classify this module as unplayable due to an estimated length for completion. In regards to length to completion, there is a huge variable that being the party themselves. Strong characters played by good players would have no problem finishing this module in 12 hours or less.
Dave, please correct me if I am wrong, but the disclaimer that this module will run long is to give the players an opportunity to roleplay and flesh out in greater detail some of the encounters. There are a myriad of opportunities throughout the module via roleplay would extend the completion time out past 12 hours.
I guess I will test out my theory this weekend, when I am scheduled to play this module again but with a synergized 4 man team. It will be interesting how that turns out.
I think that was me who stated that...Just to be clear.... the tedious grindfest I experienced when playing this mod was NOT because of the content of the mod but CLEARLY due to the limitations of the party assembled.As for comparisons between this m
Writing a longer reply, but I will say that I think the mod does come in around 12 hrs - we probably would have finished the 2nd fight in Agathys faster if we had deployed more resources. As it was, we did not and suffered for it.
Writing a longer reply, but I will say that I think the mod does come in around 12 hrs - we probably would have finished the 2nd fight in Agathys faster if we had deployed more resources. As it was, we did not and suffered for it.
So, yeah, for epic stuff plan for 3 sessions of gaming. Or even just get together as a dnd group and play without preconceived schedules and limits - it starts when it starts, ends when it ends, and remember to RP as much as folks want, and not skimp on the ending. There's 4 months between epic modules. No need to hurry.
And this:
The disclaimer that this module will run long is to give the players an opportunity to roleplay and flesh out in greater detail some of the encounters. There are a myriad of opportunities throughout the module via roleplay would extend the completion time out past 12 hours.
There is a lot of great content available to the DM in Epic adventures. Different groups will want to spend more time on some aspects, and less time on others. Being under a time constraint adds the extra responsibility on the DM to make decisions about what to expand on, and what to cut - a skill that even challenges many heroic and paragon DMs.
Getting 6 people with real lives and real schedules together to spend 2 or more days playing one adventure is unrealistic at best and makes the adventure "unplayable" in anything less than a close knit home group.
The epic adventures may be "unplayable as traditional LFR mods," but they were never intended to be such. As previously pointed out, with 4 months between adventures, getting "6 people with real lives and real schedules" to meet 3 times to play in a 4-month period is hardly unrealistic. I'd call it perfectly reasonable.
This:And this:There is a lot of great content available to the DM in Epic adventures. Different groups will want to spend more time on some aspects, and less time on others. Being under a time constraint adds the extra responsibility on the DM to mak
12-15 hours is 3 4-5 hour slots, and that's how long the module takes. Some tables may experience variation above that - much like some will experience variation below that.
Woah! Back up here! A slot is 4 hours not 4-5. That means anything over 12 is going into the 4 slot territory. The target point should be done in less than 12 hours. Meaning a reasonably optimised group taking their time should finish the mod in 12 hours with no breaks. Yes, table variation will occur, but if it plays out at 15+hours on the norm something needs to be done to speed it up. By most accounts here, this mod is averaging 15+, its too much.
Woah! Back up here! A slot is 4 hours not 4-5. That means anything over 12 is going into the 4 slot territory. The target point should be done in less than 12 hours. Meaning a reasonably optimised group taking their time should finish the mod in 12 h
12-15 hours is 3 4-5 hour slots, and that's how long the module takes. Some tables may experience variation above that - much like some will experience variation below that.
Woah! Back up here! A slot is 4 hours not 4-5.
From the most recent LFR Campaign Guide: "Adventures typically take about 4 or 5 hours to play."
The target point should be done in less than 12 hours. Meaning a reasonably optimised group taking their time should finish the mod in 12 hours with no breaks.
The target point is whatever the adventure description says the typical play time should be. If the blurb says the adventure can be completed in 4 hours and instead it takes 8 hours, that's a problem because people have scheduled things based on the assumption that it would only take 4 hours to play. The description of EPIC 3-2 clearly states that the recommended amount of time to complete the adventure is approximately 12 to 15 hours of play.
Yes, table variation will occur, but if it plays out at 15+hours on the norm something needs to be done to speed it up. By most accounts here, this mod is averaging 15+, its too much.
I don't think the "norm" or "average" is that this adventure takes over 15 hours to play. There is only one account in this thread of EPIC 3-2 taking longer than 15 hours to play. Other players have commented that they skimmed through the last encounter or two, but in those instances they had to cut the adventure short because they didn't allow the full recommended play time, not because the adventure took over 15 hours. If an adventure recommends X hours to play the adventure and you don't allow that much time, you should expect that you might have a diminished play experience and should perhaps take steps to speed up the adventure (calling fights, making sure players are paying attention, putting players in delay if they take too long deciding what to do on their turn, etc.).
Woah! Back up here! A slot is 4 hours not 4-5.[/quote]From the most recent LFR Campaign Guide: "Adventures typically take about 4 or 5 hours to play." Earlier you said "4+ slots," not "into the 4 slot territory." Those are 2 different things. The
What suprises me is that DMs call the last fight in a 3-round adventure. It might be my experience with running convention games, but about halfway I check whether or not things are running late, and than decide to call earlier less important fights. A piece of advice to DMs when preparing an adventure write down at what point in time you should be based on the assumption that a fight should last about 1 hour. Also check which encounters are more or less important and how you can speed things along. So when you are finally running the adventure, you have a better grasp on finishing the adventure. Mind you, I am hardly perfect and sometimes forget to regularly check the clock especially when having a lot of fun, but it is a great boon to do so beforehand.
What suprises me is that DMs call the last fight in a 3-round adventure. It might be my experience with running convention games, but about halfway I check whether or not things are running late, and than decide to call earlier less important fights.
I spoke with the other table's DM and he agreed with my assessment of the situation both story-wise and game-tension-wise, and did it at his table. If anything, not getting a short rest at this point should have been written in.
Spoiler:
Show
I spoke with the other table's DM and he agreed with my assessment of the situation both story-wise and game-tension-wise, and did it at his table. If anything, not getting a short rest at this point should have been written in.
Just wanted to post to follow up on my previous post.
It makes all the difference when you have the correct pieces in a party.
Yesterday, the party and I finished a nice, leisurely adventure of EPIC 3-2. We finished in a tad under 12 hours... there was a small break for lunch, and chit chat all throughout. Never felt rushed and we were able to roleplay in the areas that suited us
Even though it was a replay.. the story line held up and some of the combats still gave an adequate challenge to this party.
One of the better adventures in LFR
Hi..Just wanted to post to follow up on my previous post.It makes all the difference when you have the correct pieces in a party.Yesterday, the party and I finished a nice, leisurely adventure of EPIC 3-2. We finished in a tad under 12 hours... ther
When we playtested this we split it into two parts and took our time over each part for analysis and such. I really enjoyed it, and can't wait to play it again some time.
Daniel.
When we playtested this we split it into two parts and took our time over each part for analysis and such. I really enjoyed it, and can't wait to play it again some time. Daniel.
Two tables ran at Dexcon a few weeks ago. Both tables took the full 13.5 hours (15 hours minus an hour lunch and 30 minutes starting late) and still rushed through the last two combats. A lot of time was spent roleplaying and negotiating but it is a long module. DM's do need to stay on top of the things if there are time constraints. Otherwise they are going to rush through the final two encounters, which are among the best encounters LFR has ever offered.
Two tables ran at Dexcon a few weeks ago. Both tables took the full 13.5 hours (15 hours minus an hour lunch and 30 minutes starting late) and still rushed through the last two combats. A lot of time was spent roleplaying and negotiating but it is
which are among the best encounters LFR has ever offered
If you don't mind providing some detail, what specifically about the final two encounters made you feel that they are "the best ever"?
This kind of feedback really helps writers (and DMs) understand the type of encounter features to include in future adventures.
Glad to hear it was a success at Dexcon! If you don't mind providing some detail, what specifically about the final two encounters made you feel that they are "the best ever"?This kind of feedback really helps writers (and DMs) understand the type of
I'm running it this weekend, thanks for the many tips. I'll try to keep the early encounters quick so more emphasis can be placed on the more interesting final two. The proposed party is light on damage output and defender heavy. I would describe the players as two min-maxers and four less intense character builders. Will post an after-report next week. Brad
I'm running it this weekend, thanks for the many tips. I'll try to keep the early encounters quick so more emphasis can be placed on the more interesting final two. The proposed party is light on damage output and defender heavy. I would describe
I am a big fan of this module having played it twice and run it once. I think you are wise to concentrate on the last two encounters, though really the last 3 make up the best part of the story. Both times I played the module went over the 13 hour mark with a balanced, good but not optimized party.
-What took a disproportiante time was the roleplaying. The Sinmaker decision, the roleplaying with the "bosses" and such can take quite a while, especially if your players are into it. I suggest he only shows back up to talk with the PC's if there is a realistic chance PC's will accept the deal.
-Of all the combat encounters I felt only the first is an easy/quick fight. I skipped it when I ran.
-Encounter 5 and 7 in particular took a while. When I ran I had the bloodswarms explode when bloodied, draining healing surges but I was running for my home group and have a bit of latitude with that.
-I would make sure I had encounter 12 down cold. It is a little complex and I have seen a few DM's butcher the mechanics, making it super easy or super hard.
-If you can split it up, I would. I would end the first session right before encounter 7 or before encounter 9.
I am a big fan of this module having played it twice and run it once. I think you are wise to concentrate on the last two encounters, though really the last 3 make up the best part of the story. Both times I played the module went over the 13 hour
-If you can split it up, I would. I would end the first session right before encounter 7 or before encounter 9.
This. If there is any way you can spread this adventure out over two meetings, please do so. It is much more enjoyable to play this adventure if you can do so without being rushed.
This. If there is any way you can spread this adventure out over two meetings, please do so. It is much more enjoyable to play this adventure if you can do so without being rushed. :)
Hello all. Ran this for 6 people this past Saturday: optimized warforged fighter, optimized Cha dragonborn paladin, versatile wizard, melee rogue, greatbow ranger, and warforged polearm cleric. Of the 7 of us only the paladin had epic experience. I really did not roll well for attacks through the whole module but I've never believed in changing my rolls. Welcome to the Rock Spoiler:Show
Separating the party is always interested but the defenders and cleric did a good job of keeping the others safe although the ranger crossed the entire map to keep away from his own personal ogre. Cleric's Polearm Gamble feat let him attack of opportunity any enemy who approached him. Between that, come and get it, dragonborn breath, and wizard the minions had very little effect. Ogre stun attack only hit once. Overall not a difficult encounter, only interesting for the different PC start zones, good intro to EPIC combat.
Bastion of Lost Hope and other skill challenge encounters Spoiler:Show
Players succeeded on all group skill checks, allowing pc's to pick from multiple skills for the group check really helped them. Only gave out 2 fatigue points the whole module, ranger and rogue immediately sacrificed healing surges to negate them. Cleric contracted Corroding Doom, paladin used keoghtm's (?spelling) ointment on him immediately.
PC's felt the pressure to climb the ziggurat. Wizard used mass fly utility power, really simplifying the encounter. Also used a 6 square high, 12 square wide wall-I let it delay the mud from climbing a level for one round. He was really the star of the encounter. Hiding the dragon within the ziggurat was hilarious, cleric moved way up the steps and was alone when dragon appeared. I got him pretty low but party worked together, kept flying up the levels, no particular danger. Cleric turned down Sinmaker's offer of in-combat healing. Mud was great, Mass Fly didn't break the encounter but did make a well-designed very difficult combat fun and challenging without being overwhelmed-players really saw the wizard shine here.
Paladin and I were the organizers of this game day so we chose to make this the skipped encounter of the 3. It seemed too similar to the "Heart" encounter from The Paladin's Plague.
Really fun forcing the ranged characters into a small area. Ranger used his first round to break a hole in both walls and run in, rogue ran in and dazed the aspect of baphomet so party could get inside without attacks of opportunity. They really focused on him, dropped him in 2 rounds. The Jarrlaks' spell eater power (destroy a zone) provided a jaw-dropping moment for the cleric and the mavawhans' icy blast let me push half the party back into the storm and adjacent to the ice wall so a nice chuck of auto-damage especially since they had cold vulnerability from the first jarrlak going bloodied. Frozen portal never hit for me unfortunately. Fun, interesting combat really had them worried although no one was knocked unconscious.
Paladin and cleric wouldn't deal with Sinmaker at any point. Wizard and ranger didn't care, fighter and rogue drank the draughts of life and he travelled with them from here. His in-combat heal was never needed but it was fun to have him whispering in PCs' ears as victory and defeat fluctuated.
For time purposes made this an abstract combat: Everyone rolled initiative, I assigned my monsters and the PCs a number needed to roll to hit. Powers that targeted more than 1 targed were used as such, applied PCs' damage to the monsters-they took out 2 the first round and 2 the second round. Dealt some damage to the PCs but with this version of combat they could use powers to reduce damage. With 2 original enemies left at end of second round they got a small power boost then faced the abominations the same way. I did it this way to still convey the story and drain powers/AP's/health but save time. Could have just subtracted healing surges but that would have ignored the PCs' ability to negate damage, boost heals, etc. Not perfect but received no compaints.
Party succeeded at all group skill checks (but it was funny to see the paladin provide the only failure in each of the first three scenes). Small amount of damage was taken during the scenes.
Party focused on disrupting the ritual, finished it in the second round so drow and spiders only healed once. Plus I kept forgetting to add their bonus damage. Rogue used knockout when the exarch was almost bloodied. If the knockout damage had bloodied her I would have had her immediately awaken from (unconscious) thereby ruining the knockout-coup de grace combo but the rogue's damage was just short of bloody, figher then did the coup de grace for >150 hit points (triple weapon attack, +5 vicious, war ring after milestone, blah blah blah). The unleashed vortex was fun for me and the PCs. Nice small room.
First time the PCs really felt threatened. Having the swarm mostly block the hall and prevent their escape from the advancing darkness was great, having it and its minions grab was even better. Party saved the prisoners they felt were "good," the false Mystra agent was in perfect position to attack the non-defenders but missed. Wizard again shone by teleporting a PC out of the hungering dark before he started his turn. Ranger was slowed spent move, standard, and AP in one round moving 2 squares each to get down the hall. They really felt pressure to get out, really felt in danger. Having the darkness move on its own plus 1 square every 15 minutes of real time was great-I got the fighter in darkness when he thought he was just of its movement range. He then lost half his surges. Storm devils were helpful in slowing the party and throwing them back to the horde and darkness. The hunger delayed damage was nice, at one point the fighter was set to take 200 points of damage if he didn't get healed, unfortunately he did get healed. Paladin did go unconscious from this damage, but his ring got him back into the 20s.
They focused on getting people through the portal, really bought into the unending hordes of abominations quickly closing in on them. At first they didn't see how entering the Demonweb was a good thing but with Sinmaker I stressed that while being in the Demonweb isn't a good thing it was the only way of getting of the unescapable prison. I found the elemental eyes annoying to run as a GM-I rolled for elemental type for each of them. I should have rolled the same elemental type for them all once round one, rolled again round two. Strikers went through first, then cleric, then paladin, then fighter. I stopped running combat on the other side of the portal after a second eye went through with no maws. They finished the encounter before the beginning of round 3.
Players loved it. 1 said it was his best time ever with a d20, everyone said it met their expectations of EPIC!, ranked in their best LFR experiences. 11 hours including two 30 minute meal breaks. Everyone knew their characters and the party was a very good balance of roles/abilities. Every PC performed its role well but I thought the wizard was the star due to the mass fly and rescuing the ranger from the hungering dark (Wizard wasn't specialized and had none of the powers we GMs hate). I had as much ready in advance as possible, maps had terrain/skill challenge info written on them for everyone to read, 1 player kept track of conditions with flags next to figures on maps, another helped with the initiative board everyone could see. Sinmaker was a good role-playing tool. Two of the players will be running 23 and 21 in next two months so I will get to play also. Brad
Hello all. Ran this for 6 people this past Saturday: optimized warforged fighter, optimized Cha dragonborn paladin, versatile wizard, melee rogue, greatbow ranger, and warforged polearm cleric.Of the 7 of us only the paladin had epic experience. I
Thanks Brad! Very glad to hear you all had fun and felt the adventure was appropriately challenging.
Surprised that you played 22 before 21 - since the story is best developed when played in order.
Thanks Brad! Very glad to hear you all had fun and felt the adventure was appropriately challenging.Surprised that you played 22 before 21 - since the story is best developed when played in order.
PC's felt the pressure to climb the ziggurat. Wizard used mass fly utility power, really simplifying the encounter. Also used a 6 square high, 12 square wide wall-I let it delay the mud from climbing a level for one round. He was really the star of the encounter. Hiding the dragon within the ziggurat was hilarious, cleric moved way up the steps and was alone when dragon appeared. I got him pretty low but party worked together, kept flying up the levels, no particular danger. Cleric turned down Sinmaker's offer of in-combat healing. Mud was great, Mass Fly didn't break the encounter but did make a well-designed very difficult combat fun and challenging without being overwhelmed-players really saw the wizard shine here.
Just as an FYI for yourself and the Wizard player, a 12 wide 6 high wall requires a power that creates a Wall 72, something that doesn't, and cannot exist in 4e (at least, not as of yet or the forseeable future). When a power says "Area Wall 12 within X squares" and then in the effect "The wall can be up to 12 squares long and up to 6 squares high." this means that you have 12 "squares" of wall to build your wall out of, you can stack them up to 6 high, but that limits how wide the wall can be.
I also hope that he used Wall of Ice, since it would be impossible for him to use both Mass Fly and Wall of Force (the only other Wall 12) since both are Level 22 Utility powers (even though a Wizard gets to have 2 utility powers in their spellbook of any given level, they can only use 1 of them)
Just as an FYI for yourself and the Wizard player, a 12 wide 6 high wall requires a power that creates a Wall 72, something that doesn't, and cannot exist in 4e (at least, not as of yet or the forseeable future). When a power says "Area Wall 12 withi
Wall of ice. I dont feel too bad about the size error since I like to think the cold temperature would slow the mud in addition to the physical obstruction. Brad
Wall of ice. I dont feel too bad about the size error since I like to think the cold temperature would slow the mud in addition to the physical obstruction.Brad
That's one of those cases where if a player goes, "Can I use my wall of ice daily to slow the hazard for a round?" you're plenty right off just saying "Yes"
That's one of those cases where if a player goes, "Can I use my wall of ice daily to slow the hazard for a round?" you're plenty right off just saying "Yes" :)
That's one of those cases where if a player goes, "Can I use my wall of ice daily to slow the hazard for a round?" you're plenty right off just saying "Yes"
Oh absolutely, don't let mechanics spoil PCs doing something that they could do, probably should do in that situation, and would look really cool when they do it. (The rule of cool)
It's just a common misconception, and I'm contractually obligated to Gond and Ioun to point these things out, otherwise people will start wondering if Warforged go to Celestia ( another common misconception!)
Oh absolutely, don't let mechanics spoil PCs doing something that they could do, probably should do in that situation, and would look really cool when they do it. (The rule of cool)It's just a common misconception, and I'm contractually obligated to
I recently DM'ed EPIC3-1, and noticed that the party was a bit too optimized for the mod. Like: most fights didn't last past round 2, and the players could sometimes just skip their short rest. The returning pattern was that monsters just didn't have high enough defenses and HP, and were often not accurate enough and didn't do enough damage to really make the players panic.
Now they had plenty of fun, but I want to up the challenge a bit for the next adventure. What would you advice regarding combat encounters, just up the monster level by 1 or 2 across the board?
I recently DM'ed EPIC3-1, and noticed that the party was a bit too optimized for the mod. Like: most fights didn't last past round 2, and the players could sometimes just skip their short rest. The returning pattern was that monsters just didn't have
It depends on what was the cause of the lack of challenge. If the monsters died before they could act, I think that simply increasing the hit points is a better idea. If it was their attack rolls and defenses, increasing their levels is an option, but remember that that increases hit points as well and hence might actually modify them too much. The current design assumption after all is that PCs should hit a lot more often than not... If the discrepancy was really big though, adding more monsters instead of raising their level might be much better.
It depends on what was the cause of the lack of challenge. If the monsters died before they could act, I think that simply increasing the hit points is a better idea. If it was their attack rolls and defenses, increasing their levels is an option, bu
Why don't you mention this issue with the players and ask them what they want to do? i.e. would they be open to modify things and, if so, how? As a player, I hate when the DM decides he needs to adjust things to challenge a party I am in (without discussing it).
If you are set on adjusting, I would boost monsters' attacks, not defenses. Missing is really not fun, so if you just boost monsters' offense the players will still hit. You could also boost Monsters' initiative or just alternate initiative altogether. Again, I would probably mention this to the players, as there is nothing worse than spending feats/items, etc. on boosting initiative and having the DM change the rules to invalidate the precious resources you used.
Daren
Why don't you mention this issue with the players and ask them what they want to do? i.e. would they be open to modify things and, if so, how? As a player, I hate when the DM decides he needs to adjust things to challenge a party I am in (without di
If you do want to go the route of changing stats rather than tactics I would agree with Drezden to boost monster offense rather than defense. Brutal but quick fights tend to go over better. Well that and check with the players, while I know some of them I am not a 100% sure they are all necessarily looking for more challenge and less pwnage
Either way it will be tricky as by boosting offense you run the risk of overdraining resources.
If you do want to go the route of changing stats rather than tactics I would agree with Drezden to boost monster offense rather than defense. Brutal but quick fights tend to go over better. Well that and check with the players, while I know some of t
On the other hand, the monsters in the epic do hit hard so maybe giving them another chance to go is a good idea. Upping their offenses doesn't help if the main bad guys are dead at the end of round 1(the module does a pretty good job of dodging the alpha strike, but the beta strike...) Upping their Hp's is a decent idea but you don't want things to drag and if you run it in one long session, it can. I would see what works best in your group but I would think higher offense is better early on and higher hp's is better later.
On the other hand, the monsters in the epic do hit hard so maybe giving them another chance to go is a good idea. Upping their offenses doesn't help if the main bad guys are dead at the end of round 1(the module does a pretty good job of dodging the
I recently DM'ed EPIC3-1, and noticed that the party was a bit too optimized for the mod. Like: most fights didn't last past round 2, and the players could sometimes just skip their short rest. The returning pattern was that monsters just didn't have high enough defenses and HP, and were often not accurate enough and didn't do enough damage to really make the players panic.
Now they had plenty of fun, but I want to up the challenge a bit for the next adventure. What would you advice regarding combat encounters, just up the monster level by 1 or 2 across the board?
Hey Sven,
I think the best option to add challenge for the party is to simply increase the number of monsters. Adding either to hit bonusses or defenses will make investments in those area's for certain characters worthless or less releveant, which can lead to frustration. Additionally, most combats in Epic 3-1, from my perspective as a player, ended in round one/were rather easy since half or more than half of the monsters were immediately and permanently locked out of the fight. Adding one or two more monsters with a more spread out starting position should counter this nicely. I think it's a more reliable way of upping things than increasing the damage, since, if things go similarly, you'll have at most half the monsters to threaten the party in any encounter. As a party, it's far easier to screw over singular monsters with increased damage with interrupts than to deal with multiple enemies without boosted stats.
Then again, i know nothing of the module or the combats other than that the reaction of everyone in this thread is highly postive. Looking forward to it
-Mark
Hey Sven,I think the best option to add challenge for the party is to simply increase the number of monsters. Adding either to hit bonusses or defenses will make investments in those area's for certain characters worthless or less releveant, which ca
I DM'd EPIC3-2 yesterday, and we had a very good time. Sure, the stuff that everyone mentioned in the thread did apply (adventure took long, challenge level was relatively low even when I increased the difficulty of the encounters), but I'm sure the authors don't want to hear about that anymore. So instead, I'm just going to relate what we liked about it.
Travel through Carceri: we had great fun with the journey through the plane. The Fire Giant in encounter 1 asked for parley pretty quickly, so the players were received as almost-equals in a court of giants and titans. I roleplayed King Karsus as a pretty cheerful guy as long as the players didn't anger him in some way. They didn't, and even convinced him to let them take the Fire Giant from encounter 1 as a tag-along to show them the way to Minethys to wipe out Neferkhaba.
The other islands were also a lot of fun. Highlights were the verbal sparring match with the Queen of the Court of Blood, meeting and dealing with Gero and fighting through the walls of ice.
The party consisted of (mostly) good guys, so they all rejected Sinmaker's offer repeatedly. They were a strong party, so they didn't need the "extended rest" he provided.
We really enjoyed the roleplaying opportunities this part of the adventure provided. So thanks for including them!
Agathys: this is where the s**t was gonna hit the fan. Or so I thought. Turns out my players really were prepared for anything. Well, with a wizard who is in love with Dark Gathering, an initiative-boosting attack-granting warlord, a charge-opped warforged barbarian, a warlock that gives out temp HPs like nobody's business and a Hospitaler paladin, I really shouldn't expect otherwise
Anyway, the skill challenge with the endless hordes of abominations was good fun. The paladin offered to use a power to "just take the damage for the entire party" when there were 7 abominations left after scene 3, but fortunately for him the others quickly talked him out of taking the full 175 damage.
My absolute favorite combat encounter was the one with Tyranoth and the heaps and heaps of poisong damage. It was the only one where the players felt threatened after the Vortex exploded and everyone suddenly had vulnerable 10 to all damage.
The Hungering Dark encounter made me smile, if only because the players managed to free every prisoner except for the Cyricist and the fake Mystra worshipper, and then only because they chose not to. Wizard casts Arcane Gate, warforged and warlock blast the doors out of their hinges, and paladin tanks the Hungering Horde. The Hungering Dark once came close to the wizard, but then they freed the chosen of Ilmater and I just called the encounter.
The last encounter was fun, but not too hard because the players freed 5 prisoners. The wizard put up a Wall of Ice and a Wall of Stone to seal off one side of the room and the others quickly completed the remaining skill checks to open the portal, but then the prisoners jumped through the portal so it became really unstable again. But the players synched up their actions and all got through the portal except for the paladin. He decided to take the risk and jump through the unstable portal, and got very lucky to make his saving throw. That also was really cool. Everyone watched the d20 roll with fear in their hearts, making this a real "save or die" moment.
After that they mopped up the 3 abominations that got through the portal, and after 15 hours we were done!
I increased the difficulty level of the encounters to challenge my players a little more. For those who care, this is what I did:
Encounter 1: add a second Fire Giant and 4 extra minions. Ecnounter 3: made the mud rise twice per round (halfway through and at the end of the round ) and added some extra ghouls. Encounter 4: skipped it. Encounter 5: Added a third glacial wall, another Jarlakk and a Reaver. Encounter 7: Added 2 additional swarms. Encounter 8: Made the players fight 12/15/18 abominations. Encounter 9: Added a third Drow Arcanist, made Tyranoth attack with ranged attacks while she was still performing the ritual, and every time someone took ongoing damage I stacked it with the ongoing damage they already had. Encounter 11: Added a third Storm Devil, made the Hungering Dark shift 2 square forward every time 10 minutes passed in real time. Encounter 12: Added a Living Maw and 2 additional Hungering Abominations, made 2 Elemental Eyes appear after round 1 (there was no round 3).
And still, they didn't need Sinmaker's help, I never dropped someone to 0 HP and I think everyone had some surges left at the end of the adventure.
Thanks for writing it, and we all really look forward to EPIC3-3!
I DM'd EPIC3-2 yesterday, and we had a very good time. Sure, the stuff that everyone mentioned in the thread did apply (adventure took long, challenge level was relatively low even when I increased the difficulty of the encounters), but I'm sure the
Did Sinmaker escape Carceri? I have not heard of a run where he does not.
How about Gero? Did team Good Guy decide to bring him along with them?
Nope, sinmaker got left behind We rejected his offers of help twice and the third time he didn't even try.
Gero offered to replace our wizards dragonling pet, but at least half the party loved him so it was a futile effort. In addition to that, his conning was found out when the barbarian instantly drank his potion, and he decided to run before he suffered further abuse.
So yeah, we did a full 'knight in shining armor run' with upscaled encounters and still made it. I'll have a detailed report up later today.
Nope, sinmaker got left behind :) We rejected his offers of help twice and the third time he didn't even try. Gero offered to replace our wizards dragonling pet, but at least half the party loved him so it was a futile effort. In addition to that, hi
Did Sinmaker escape Carceri? I have not heard of a run where he does not.
How about Gero? Did team Good Guy decide to bring him along with them?
About Sinmaker: after reading the adventure again, I understand that he should try to escape even when the PCs didn't want anything to do with him. But I didn't think that was realistic, or fair to the players. They gave their solemn vows to the marut guarding the gates of Carceri that they wouldn't let anything escape. If I had Sinmaker, who's been rejected multiple times, suddenly dispel his invisibility when the gate opens and run through, it would've left a bad taste in the player's mouthes. So I didn't - that brewer has been left to rot in the Red Prison
About Sinmaker: after reading the adventure again, I understand that he should try to escape even when the PCs didn't want anything to do with him. But I didn't think that was realistic, or fair to the players. They gave their solemn vows to the maru
I DM'd EPIC3-2 yesterday, and we had a very good time. Sure, the stuff that everyone mentioned in the thread did apply (adventure took long, challenge level was relatively low even when I increased the difficulty of the encounters), but I'm sure the authors don't want to hear about that anymore. So instead, I'm just going to relate what we liked about it.
Travel through Carceri: we had great fun with the journey through the plane. The Fire Giant in encounter 1 asked for parley pretty quickly, so the players were received as almost-equals in a court of giants and titans. I roleplayed King Karsus as a pretty cheerful guy as long as the players didn't anger him in some way. They didn't, and even convinced him to let them take the Fire Giant from encounter 1 as a tag-along to show them the way to Minethys to wipe out Neferkhaba.
The other islands were also a lot of fun. Highlights were the verbal sparring match with the Queen of the Court of Blood, meeting and dealing with Gero and fighting through the walls of ice.
The party consisted of (mostly) good guys, so they all rejected Sinmaker's offer repeatedly. They were a strong party, so they didn't need the "extended rest" he provided.
We really enjoyed the roleplaying opportunities this part of the adventure provided. So thanks for including them!
Agathys: this is where the s**t was gonna hit the fan. Or so I thought. Turns out my players really were prepared for anything. Well, with a wizard who is in love with Dark Gathering, an initiative-boosting attack-granting warlord, a charge-opped warforged barbarian, a warlock that gives out temp HPs like nobody's business and a Hospitaler paladin, I really shouldn't expect otherwise
Anyway, the skill challenge with the endless hordes of abominations was good fun. The paladin offered to use a power to "just take the damage for the entire party" when there were 7 abominations left after scene 3, but fortunately for him the others quickly talked him out of taking the full 175 damage.
My absolute favorite combat encounter was the one with Tyranoth and the heaps and heaps of poisong damage. It was the only one where the players felt threatened after the Vortex exploded and everyone suddenly had vulnerable 10 to all damage.
The Hungering Dark encounter made me smile, if only because the players managed to free every prisoner except for the Cyricist and the fake Mystra worshipper, and then only because they chose not to. Wizard casts Arcane Gate, warforged and warlock blast the doors out of their hinges, and paladin tanks the Hungering Horde. The Hungering Dark once came close to the wizard, but then they freed the chosen of Ilmater and I just called the encounter.
The last encounter was fun, but not too hard because the players freed 5 prisoners. The wizard put up a Wall of Ice and a Wall of Stone to seal off one side of the room and the others quickly completed the remaining skill checks to open the portal, but then the prisoners jumped through the portal so it became really unstable again. But the players synched up their actions and all got through the portal except for the paladin. He decided to take the risk and jump through the unstable portal, and got very lucky to make his saving throw. That also was really cool. Everyone watched the d20 roll with fear in their hearts, making this a real "save or die" moment.
After that they mopped up the 3 abominations that got through the portal, and after 15 hours we were done!
I increased the difficulty level of the encounters to challenge my players a little more. For those who care, this is what I did:
Encounter 1: add a second Fire Giant and 4 extra minions. Ecnounter 3: made the mud rise twice per round (halfway through and at the end of the round ) and added some extra ghouls. Encounter 4: skipped it. Encounter 5: Added a third glacial wall, another Jarlakk and a Reaver. Encounter 7: Added 2 additional swarms. Encounter 8: Made the players fight 12/15/18 abominations. Encounter 9: Added a third Drow Arcanist, made Tyranoth attack with ranged attacks while she was still performing the ritual, and every time someone took ongoing damage I stacked it with the ongoing damage they already had. Encounter 11: Added a third Storm Devil, made the Hungering Dark shift 2 square forward every time 10 minutes passed in real time. Encounter 12: Added a Living Maw and 2 additional Hungering Abominations, made 2 Elemental Eyes appear after round 1 (there was no round 3).
And still, they didn't need Sinmaker's help, I never dropped someone to 0 HP and I think everyone had some surges left at the end of the adventure.
Thanks for writing it, and we all really look forward to EPIC3-3!
Damn it, you beat me to it :P Anyway, Nice report For those interested in a more detailed report on the fights in a semi-narritive form from a player POV, I've added some notes below. We played the adventure with the same group of players we played epic 3-1 with a month ago, consisting of :
-A halfling paladin/hospitaler/ceaseless guardian.
-A human Warlock/hellbringer/keeper of the everflow.
-Am eladrin wizard/spellstorm mage/planeshaper.
-a warforged barbarian/x/reincarnate champion.
-me, an 'eladrin' warlord/Battlellord of kord/legendary sovereign.
Everyone knew eachother and everyone's character was at least reasonably optimized. Personally, I was testing out an insightful warlord build for the first time, since bravura didn't really work too well for the party, with warlocks blowing themselves up for the melee basic and stuff. Since we had a bit of an easy time in the last adventure, Svendj upscaled everything as mentioned above.
Note: all encounter were upscaled as Svendj detailed above. This battle report describes the upscaled encounters.
After our merry band of adventurers had recovered from, um, humiliating correlon and saving his realm as they did, he conveniently decided to overlook this and sent them out on another suicide mission, this time into the prison plane of Carceri. He wasn't sure of what exactly they would find , nor was he sure if there was any way out at all (he only had a hunch), just that they would probably find the source of the endless abominiation hordes and that the carceri compact had probably somehow been broken. So of course the heroes were all eager to go ASAP. Except for the warlock, who was kind of skeptical, but he came along anyway. Looking back on it, maybe he was right and Corellon secretly wanted us dead anyway...?
Encounter 1:
After the Maruts let us pass and we ended up scattered all over the map, the defender found himself alone, while the warlock and wizard ended up together, leaving me with the barbarian. Most of the enemies got the jump on us since they rolled high on initiatives, but the wizard and the warlock still beat them. The fun started in turn one as the wizard immediately prevented two of the giants near him from moving towards him, and then made the warlock jump right over the forest into the melee, where he proceeded to be unhittable and started giving out temp hp shields like it was nobody's buisness.
The minions did manage to hit the paladin, though he was near-immune to their attacks, and the barbarian, who did have a problem being grabbed. I was able to use faervian's special spell-storing attack to kill three of the four minions near us, including the ones grabbing the barbarian, and critted one, which gave everyone except the wizard a free attack by my epic destiny feature (I love that weapon). This left the barbarian to charge off, and halfway through the second round he and the warlock had killed or bloodied roughly half the enemies, and with the rest of them bloodied and /or in restricting zones of control, I critted the diplomacy/intimidate check and made them surrender.
total damage to the party: 1 surge (barbarian, from minion damage).
1b Interlude:King karsus.
Upon hearing of an earth titan, the barbarian joked about killing him and claiming this as our own island, should things go bad. However, Karsus was a very jovial and friendly fellow. With a group diplomacy check of 200 or so, we managed to convince him to give us the fire giant as a tour guide for the rest of the islands. However, he couldn't well go on our wooden boat, so he had to carry his own raft around with him.
For some reason, the warlock had a … questionable outfit with him that he wanted the giant to put on. We decided not to ask.
Encounter 2:Skill challenge
It felt a bit unlogical to me as to why we were not allowed to use endurance to resit being infected, since that was how I think all diseases you contract are initially resisted, but I can understand tying it to a high dc rare skill with no allowed alternatives so that sinmaker has more leverage in the next encounter. We had four infections since noone was trained in nature, but we did have two ointments to remove two of them.
Encounter 2b: Enter sinmaker
Sinmaker did seem like an interesting NPC and the DM did a good job in making him me almost sympathize with him, but fact remained that he just had too much a lack of morale for the everyone in the party. The wizard remarked almost prophetically that it was awfully convenient that he was a legendary poison/brew mixer when arvandor had just been devastated by something like that. While I did seriously consider signing his contract as a trade for more information on the situation and his knowledge on how to prevent a god from discorporating (we didn't need any of his services, but something told me I'd be running into someone really powerful who really hated corellon soon), in the end we all decided he was too dangerous to leave carceri.
Sorry bro You just ran into the wrong party.
Encounter 3:skill challenge #2?
Though the ghost wasn’t able to offer us a significant reward, our knight in shining armor party immediately decided we didn’t require compensation to rid the realms of another major threat (even though he couldn’t get out of carceri, but that’s beside the point).
I think we used our overland flight speed of 20 to skip part of the skill challenge, since I cannot remember rolling any checks myself here before we entered the combat. That ritual we casted before we departed really came in handy....
Encounter 3b:the Ziggurat.
Since we won initiative, the babarian and I decided to use our overland flight 20 speed and forego our standard and minor to immediately fly to near the top of the ziggurat in turn one. I think everyone would have done that and completely avoided the hazard, if the DM hadn't made it act twice each round, so everyone else was attacked and pulled closer. What followed was a REDICULOUS string of teleports from the various PC's to get out of the mud and into safety, and eventually everyone made it to the top with some difficulty.
...Except for the paladin, who was by then stunlocked by the ghouls and in the mud, though not drowning. The abilities of the dragon were pretty powerful and I can remember him downing the mage and bloodying one other character, which called for a desperate finish. In the last turn, both the barbarian and myself were blinded and I was immobilized out of melee range, and I knew I had to finish it somehow, so I gave myself a save vs blind, made it, dropped faervian and drew my blade of the eldritch knight, and used death from two sides from 5 squares away. In a streak of high luck, we both critted the dragon and the resulting critical damage + party free attack finished him off.
Encounter 4: “please don’t anger the psychotic queen”.
…And we didn’t, albeit barely. The DM himself said he preferred the encounter 5 battle anyway, and thus we didn’t get eaten alive by carnivorous plants. Instead we’d get frozen alive. Joy.
Encounter 5: Gero.
The paladin got taken in with his obviously fake story about having children to feat and being abused by big demons and monsters, so he decided to trade in his old weapon in exchange for (useless) information. In addition, he offered to replace the wizards familiar, and since that was our pet, I nearly choked him. The potions he offered against the remaining corroding doom effects were bought since they were so ‘cheap’ (5000 gold is so little at epic). Unfortunately for Gero, the warforged IMMEDIATELY drank it and he was found out, after which he ran.
Encounter 5b: shelter from the storm.
The upscaled version of the encounter we played had a triple wall of ice and two more monsters to work through, and it was brutal (for my character, at least). The fight started with absolute insanity as me and the warlock melted through the ice wall, after which the wizard used a damage boosted quickened thunder wave to remove the other two walls. Then, the wizard used mass charm and the paladin used his mass charm from the corellon boon to move the aspect of baphomet and one of the maravhan reavers 12 quares out of the cave, attack eachother twice and slow them out of range.
Then, the remaining 4 monsters came out and blasted me for roughly 100 points of cold damage before I got to act again. Everyone hurried into the cave at turn two, me using superior will and the plainstrider boots to teleport around a solid wall, then I used my boon of corellon to use a third mass charm to make all the monsters inside clump up and kill one of them, after which they were blasted by the warlock for a lot. As a parting gift, the aspect of bapomet, who had been near-death at turn 3 due to the barbarian’s charges and whom I landed the finishing blow on, hit me THREE times for a total of 120 damage even though I had an ac of 45 against him (rolls 18, 17, 18). This fight costed me 3 surges and a lay on hands from the paladin.
Encounter 6: sinmaker 2.
We did a quick tally of the remaining surges and this is what came up:
Paladin: 8/15, warlock 10/15, barbarian 5 or 6/10, wizard 2/8, me 3/9 (both me and the wizard took a lot of damage in the last encounter). We used a succor ritual for the lock to give the wizard and me two of his surges, which left everyone with 5 or so surges except for the paladin, who had 8. On the upside, we had the large majority of our dailies intact. And that was when sinmaker approached us again. This is roughly how the conversation went:
SInmaker: but I have very powerful potions that can restore-
Us: “No. You’re too dangerous to let out of carceri.”
Sinmaker: Er, well, I can see that some of you are in a bad condition and going to the final island like this might not be the best-
Us: “go away”.
Sinmaker:
Dm during the break: hmmm, I’m very interested to see how many of you are going to survive the adventure. I guess it will depend on how much surgeless healing you have remaining…
Encounter 7: “wait, your buff does what, exactly??”
It was obvious from the start that these were guardians of the prison plane that were fighting us, and that at least the angel of ilmater might be open to reasoning, so I tried to get everyone to at least spare her. We tried not to waste any resources fighting and most of us used diplomacy checks to convice the angel of ilmater to not attack. The angel of bane got stunlocked by the wizard while the barbarian and the warlock killed two of the maruts before the onslaught of abominations was upon us. “Good luck heroes, please clean this up and if you survive, maybe you’re worthy of entering after all.” Great. At least the +1 healing surge they left us behind was a godsend.
We were attacked from all sides by 4 swarms and some additional support, but did have the first strike. This was when the warlock to use his level 20 unleash the inferno daily to hit 6/8 targets at range and prone them, upon which the wizard used a damage buffed daily to ‘stunlock’ 4 of the mobs, which left us with 4 more. At this point, I teleported next to the wizard who said he had a very powerful defensive buff for me, and I took it…. And read that it slowed me for the rest of the encounter, with the nearest enemy now 12 squares away. Oops. Not to worry, since a jump spell with result 55 jumped me 11 squares back in.
One of the highlights of the combat was when a swarm tried to move into the warlocks and my square. We both hit the oppotunity attack, with me critting him, causing the warlock to slide him away using eldritch strike, then me using echoing dirge to slide him away, then the wizard using magic missile to slide him away, and finally the warlock again with his second eldritch strike. He was able to still get adjacent, but it was close
After the swarms used their semi-dominate to use someone’s daily for the first time, we used some of our limited resources to kill all of them before they could again. In the end, we lost surprisingly little, given how threatening the setup was.
Encounter 8: minion waves.
I can remember being in a similar skill challenge before during another special, and it stood out to me for two reasons: the first is that I liked that this time, the non-controllers without having access to at-will blasts could at least contribute with skill checks to get more than 1 kill each turn. The second is that these types of fights are the only ones in which the tempest of triumph paragon path power is worth anything , and I used it twice to kill 5 of the minions in round 2 and 3. It took a lot of effort to get the waves of 12/15/18 minions under control with 5 players, but in the end we only took 1 surge of damage each. The warlocks temp-hp shields were also invaluable here. The paladin had the idea of taking 175 damage himself to take all of the damage from 1 round, but we were able to talk him to his senses.
Encounter 9: drow ritual.
The highlights of the encounter were the wizard petrifying one of the spiders in round one, and also trapping the other spider in a wall of ice. Both spiders died to these effects before they got to make an attack, though the remaining 3 venomcasters were able to ramp up the ongoing really quickly, making save-granting invaluable. There were a few worrying moments, but the combined healing and saving throws from the warlock (who for some reason was not hit even once in the entire encounter), the paladin and myself got everyone through it.
Sinmaker did not appear after the encounter. I think it doesn’t make much sense for him to be there either, since we refused his aid twice, but the module doesn’t seem to take that into account and would have placed him in that room anyway (good DMing?). I just hope he wasn’t there invisibly and had been walking along with us all the time. It wouldn’t have been hard, since no one was trained in perception (yes, an all-epic party without anyone being trained in perception. It can happen).
Encounter 10: the hungering dark.
Compared to all the other encounters, this seemed a bit too easy and slightly boring, though I did love the setup of it. Arcane gate was able to put everyone halfway through the hall and behind the hungering horde. The guardians went down easily to the barbarian and some control (but why would they want to fight us with the hungering dark approaching them so quickly?). We opened all of the cells except for cyric’s champion, since we judged him/her as being just too evil/dangerous to release, and he/she met a gruesome end. If it were up to me, I’d have left the follower of loviatar there as well, since I had a bone to pick with that diety, but she was released before I was able to stop the barbarian from doing so. Oh well.
Encounter 11: See Svendj’s report, with one addition. At the end, we were left with 3 abominations in a small room, and they were killed in a stylish fashion with a warlord nova (vanguard weapon + war masters assault + rush of battle), the only one I was really able to pull off this adventure. Not that it mattered much, since we would have definitely won anyway, but I thought it was a suitably epic finish J
Ending surge pools:
Paladin: 1 (used lay on hands twice to give others temp hp shield before jumping through the portal)
Wizard : 2
Me: 3
Warlock : 2
Barbarian: 3.
Sinmaker: left behind on carceri (we hope/think).
Looking over the remaining surge pools, I'd like to think that the insightful defensive buffs and 1 to 3 misses I was able to cause with it's power and presence each combat were relevant, and I'm fairy happy with the build I was testing.
Overall thoughts: With the upscaled encounters, I feel that the challenge level was a lot better and more fun than the unscaled 3-1 adventure, even though I enjoyed that one as well. I liked the idea of having to deal with sinmaker (an obviously evil entity and potential threat) if you weren’t as well prepared as you could have been and that the clearly (morally) best ending is both far more difficult and actually dependant on your choices as a table. For rewards, both myself and the paladin are getting rings of tenacious will to increase the party surge pool higher in case a similar situation occurs in future adventures.
I’d like to thank the wirters again for a great module and Svendj for both DMing it well and providing interesting upscaled encounters. We’re set to play 3-3 somewhere in the next two months with the same group, and we’re all looking forward to it. I’ll definitely battle report it again for those interested when we do.
Damn it, you beat me to it :P Anyway, Nice report :) For those interested in a more detailed report on the fights in a semi-narritive form from a player POV, I've added some notes below. We played the adventure with the same group of players we playe
Did Sinmaker escape Carceri? I have not heard of a run where he does not.
How about Gero? Did team Good Guy decide to bring him along with them?
About Sinmaker: after reading the adventure again, I understand that he should try to escape even when the PCs didn't want anything to do with him. But I didn't think that was realistic, or fair to the players. They gave their solemn vows to the marut guarding the gates of Carceri that they wouldn't let anything escape. If I had Sinmaker, who's been rejected multiple times, suddenly dispel his invisibility when the gate opens and run through, it would've left a bad taste in the player's mouthes. So I didn't - that brewer has been left to rot in the Red Prison
One of the difficulties of organized play is (1) you want to provide players with choices that actually matter and affect future adventures and (2) not everyone is going to make the same choices, so there can be a disconnect if the reality of your PC's world is different than the reality of the shared world.
For example, what if the "official campaign result" is that Sinmaker escaped Carceri because that is what the majority of the players did? And then Sinmaker shows up again in a future module because he escaped? Well, that wouldn't make any sense for groups like yours that left him in Carceri. Having the possibility that he secretly escaped Carceri explains the disconnect between an individual group's "reality" and the larger LFR campaign "reality."
Another example: In writing NETH 4-1, I tried to provide an explanation for the "official campaign results" of the Year 3 NETH adventures that made sense regardless of what your individual table chose to do. "NETH 3-X Adventures"Show
In the Year 3 NETH trilogy, PCs had to make a choice between killing Prince Yder or not killing him. Most tables killed Yder, so the official campaign result is that he is dead. If a group chose not to kill Yder, the official LFR storyline could still be explained by saying that a different group of adventurers assassinated him later (or he died of natural causes or whatever). If the official result was that Yder was still alive, that discrepancy could also be explained for tables that killed him by saying he was resurrected or killed someone else or...
If Sinmaker shows up again in a future mod (i.e. if that is what happened at the majority of tables and is the official result), saying that Sinmaker secretly escaped Carceri on his own is a logical explanation to repair the discrepancy between the official storyline and an individual table's actions. It requires significantly less suspense of disbelief.
About Sinmaker: after reading the adventure again, I understand that he should try to escape even when the PCs didn't want anything to do with him. But I didn't think that was realistic, or fair to the players. They gave their solemn vows to the maru
Yeah, that would/will/shall be my story to the players as well. Of course, I hope the writers cook up something better than "although you didn't let him out, he escaped the unescapable anyway a few days later". But I trust they will
That is, if he returns.
Yeah, that would/will/shall be my story to the players as well. Of course, I hope the writers cook up something better than "although you didn't let him out, he escaped the unescapable anyway a few days later". But I trust they will That is, if he re
Of course, I hope the writers cook up something better than "although you didn't let him out, he escaped the unescapable anyway a few days later".
I believe we cooked up, "slipped out invisibly and undetected while the portal was open," in the event that the majority of tables released him. {I agree that "a few days later" would be quite lame!}
One of the toughest challenges for writing for a shared-world campaign is making adjustments based on overall outcomes (so the player's choices actually matter), while still having a story that "makes sense" regardless of that choice.
Our intent is this:
• If the majority of tables bargained with Sinmaker, choosing to allow him to escape Carceri, then that is what happened. To maintain the story for the minority, we "handwave" Sinmaker was invisible and undetectable and slipped out while the portal was open.
• If the marjority of tables did not take his bargain, or otherwise managed to leave him trapped in Carceri, then that is what happened. If a future adventure returned to Carceri, Sinmaker would explain to the minority tables that he was re-captured and sent back.
Note that this is not to cheapen the experience for a PC who chose one option or the other, rather it is a way for the "majority outcome" to influence the EPIC story arc.
I believe we cooked up, "slipped out invisibly and undetected while the portal was open," in the event that the majority of tables released him. {I agree that "a few days later" would be quite lame!}Precisely. :)One of the toughest challenges for wr
Did Sinmaker escape Carceri? I have not heard of a run where he does not.
To expand on this thought - our intent is that he will escape if the majority of tables took his bargain. The "slip through invisibly" is a catch-all to explain how he might have gotten out to tables who did not make the bargain, if his escape ends up being the "official result."
To expand on this thought - our intent is that he will escape if the majority of tables took his bargain. The "slip through invisibly" is a catch-all to explain how he might have gotten out to tables who did not make the bargain, if his escape ends u
Hm. You might want to do a bit of editing to the mod then, because I recall thinking I was supposed to work on having Sinmaker escape if the party didn't take the bargin.
Hm. You might want to do a bit of editing to the mod then, because I recall thinking I was supposed to work on having Sinmaker escape if the party didn't take the bargin.
Thanks so much for sharing your experience - and bonus DM points to Svendj for making adjustments to provide an appropriate challenge for your group!
No problem, hopefully it was either fun and/or useful to read.
Btw, in regards to sinmaker's potential escape, perhaps there can be some sort of in-game effect for those who signed the contract/drank his flasks, if they ever met him again? That way, regardless of the 'consensus decision' of whether he escaped or not, the player himself will notice the result of his or her own decision as well. This doesn't have to be a penalty, per se, but I wouldn't be surprised if sinmaker decided to add a few 'questionable' ingredients with no immediate effects to his concoctions, as a contingency plan for if the adventurers decided to hunt him down when their buisness in Carceri was concluded and the contract duration ended
No problem, hopefully it was either fun and/or useful to read.Btw, in regards to sinmaker's potential escape, perhaps there can be some sort of in-game effect for those who signed the contract/drank his flasks, if they ever met him again? That way, r
Hm. You might want to do a bit of editing to the mod then, because I recall thinking I was supposed to work on having Sinmaker escape if the party didn't take the bargin.
Only if he is traveling with the party (at least one person made the bargain). Otherwise, no need to mention him.
Only if he is traveling with the party (at least one person made the bargain). Otherwise, no need to mention him.
Btw, in regards to sinmaker's potential escape, perhaps there can be some sort of in-game effect for those who signed the contract/drank his flasks, if they ever met him again?
Purely hypothetical, but IF he escaped and IF the PCs confront him in a future adventure, it will be up to the authors of that adventure to decide how to incorporate story award EPIC04.
Purely hypothetical, but IF he escaped and IF the PCs confront him in a future adventure, it will be up to the authors of that adventure to decide how to incorporate story award EPIC04. :)
Did Sinmaker escape Carceri? I have not heard of a run where he does not.
To expand on this thought - our intent is that he will escape if the majority of tables took his bargain. The "slip through invisibly" is a catch-all to explain how he might have gotten out to tables who did not make the bargain, if his escape ends up being the "official result."
I hope that there is a better reason than this for the tables that vehemently prevented him from escaping the prison.
Epic characters might be able to see through invisibility or somehow otherwise prevent him from sneaking past.
Having his escape happen "off-screen" seems better. Maybe he had some sort of backup deal with Lolth.
To expand on this thought - our intent is that he will escape if the majority of tables took his bargain. The "slip through invisibly" is a catch-all to explain how he might have gotten out to tables who did not make the bargain, if his escape ends u
I am sure there are ways to circumvent people seeing through invisiblity. But I don't think it is always really necessary to explain *how* things happen, if they happen. Sometimes, how things happen stays a mystery.
Gomez
I am sure there are ways to circumvent people seeing through invisiblity.But I don't think it is always really necessary to explain *how* things happen, if they happen. Sometimes, how things happen stays a mystery.Gomez
I'd be satisfied with "the portal continued to function after you went into the Demonweb, and Sinmaker made use of it to escape a short while after you had gone through". After all, there's nothing in the adventure that says the portal can be permanently destroyed or disabled.
I'd be satisfied with "the portal continued to function after you went into the Demonweb, and Sinmaker made use of it to escape a short while after you had gone through". After all, there's nothing in the adventure that says the portal can be permane
Epic characters might be able to see through invisibility or somehow otherwise prevent him from sneaking past.
Epic villains might be able to bypass "see invisibility" tricks or somehow otherwise prevent them from detecting his presence. Story trumps mechanics.
If Sinmaker escapes Carceri, it is a direct result of the PCs opening a portal out of Carceri. If he doesn't escape, it's moot.
Of course, any player or table can justify either outcome in any way they wish.
Epic villains might be able to bypass "see invisibility" tricks or somehow otherwise prevent them from detecting his presence. Story trumps mechanics. :)If Sinmaker escapes Carceri, it is a direct result of the PCs opening a portal out of Carceri.If
The more I think about it, the more annoying I find Sinmaker.
Immortal enemies who continually reappear can be frustrating.
I hope he goes away and the characters get to be the heroes.
The more I think about it, the more annoying I find Sinmaker.Immortal enemies who continually reappear can be frustrating.I hope he goes away and the characters get to be the heroes.
While the party as a whole decided not to take him up on his offer, I viewed Sinmaker as a wise entity. As such when the time came he telepathically conviced the "weak" link of the party that a beneficial trade could be made. If you offer a dwarf (who when not adventuring is the master-brewer for his own beer company) access to ALL the brewing recipe's Sinmaker the master alchemist of unmeasurable age knows, their moral conviction tends to... let us say...weaken... So Sin is out in the world and new brews from "Blaine's Beers" are sweeping the realms (exclusively marketed by the Ma-Dougal trading consortium (tm) of course.
Lots of laughs
I am looking forward to Sinmaker's return. While the party as a whole decided not to take him up on his offer, I viewed Sinmaker as a wise entity. As such when the time came he telepathically conviced the "weak" link of the party that a beneficial tr
). The first time I was playing an extremely tough defender and choose the "hard path" because that character could handle it. It was rewarding that I managed to successfully complete the adventure even on "hard mode" and the increased challenge made it more fun for me. The second time I played with a cleric who ended up taking massive amounts of damage and getting the tar beat out of her. I played on "hard mode" with her for most of the adventure, but near the end I had to switch to "easier mode" in order to avoid death. I liked that essentially the choice of difficulty level of the adventure was my choice to make. (I'm sure there will be consequences for that choice, but it was still a player choice.)
You just ran into the wrong party. 
