Community

Jul 29, 2010 -- 12:02PM, XaviYago wrote:

All modules should include a "Magic Item of level + 2 from any legal player resource" treasure bundle.

+2 is too powerful imo. +1 seems acceptable. That give some enticement to add higher level ietms as random treasure.
I do not see the point of making an exception for enhancement items either.

Gomez

Jul 29, 2010 -- 9:00PM, Keithric wrote:

I don't see how it would be simpler... and it'd be able to be used by an awful lot of characters to be more powerful than they are now.

And you'd have to answer all the questions that campaigns like Xen'drik had to - like how to handle consumables.

You don't handle consumables any different than they are now.  You buy them, if you use them you pay to replace.

It's easier because you don't have to worry about "open slots" or people "hoarding".  People could save up gold for cool items but given the nature of 4E - quickly gaining levels + higher level items being much more expensive - means that there would be little advantage to saving up gold.  

It's simple to calculate how much to give out because you determine the average level of wealth is assumed in 4E by the designers and you dole out GP based on the average number of mods people will take to to get to that level.  No more arguements about what level of items to give out, should it be a +1 neck slot or a +2 armor, etc.  Assume as part of the calculateion the cost of a potion or two every couple of mods if you want and your done.

I'm not suggesting that people get to repurchase at the beginning of every game like Xendrick - if you buy an item that can be sold, it's sold at the normal 20%.  If you want to upgrade that +1 frost blade to +2, you pay for the upgrade.

There is a huge disconnect now between the adventures we undertake and the rewards we get.  There is no logic.  There is even less logic with "every adventure reward is a level +x item".  Instead, we just say at the end of the mod that between the loot you sold and the reward we were given here's your GP reward.  The magic shop is over there, have fun.

This type of system worked fairly well in LG.  The difference is that you don't have to gain access to items unless they're from a normally restricted source (such as boons).

Allen.

Jul 29, 2010 -- 5:52PM, Timlagor wrote:

You forgot the money they get back from selling their previously over-levelled bundles as they replace them.

I ignored the gold gained from selling old items and the gold lost from used consumables (that's lost wealth when the consumable is used) and lost gold from ritual component costs.  I hand-waived it as a net wash.

Jul 29, 2010 -- 6:08PM, aljergensen wrote:

Once again, what would be wrong with just handing out gold?  Figure out average wealth expectations for PCs in 4E and give out gold to support that.  Let people buy items of up to level +4.  If people want to "hoard" gold, they can but it won't really buy them anything.  

It would take a little bit of math to get it right (especially having to take into consideration upgradeable items), but it would be the simplest of all solutions.

Allen.

I think this is a good idea, but the admins seem against it.  It really disconnects any kind of story/flavor completely from rewards (not that "any item your Level +2 or less" doesn't too :P).  Living Greyhawk did this (you already pointed that out I think).  Follow the LG (not the Xendrik) model and you get a fair system. 

I don't understand the complaints this is unbalancing.  Players get the cash equivalent of a Level +2 item every level to spend how they wish.  The only real downside is that you could concievably use this to buy a large number of Level-1 or Level +0 items, which DOES violate the 4e core rules assumptions (4e assumes item drops of things your want mixed in with a relatively small amount of gold). 

Again, 4e core rules are designed so you get the magic items you want, of level +1 to Level +4 every four out of five levels.  LFR fails to accomplish this.  Any system that fails to allow you to consistetntly get magic items higher level than you that you want fails to accomplish this.

There are over 7000 magic items in the game.  In the H1 tier alone (assuming level 2-6 bundles only) there are 783 magic items.  Assuming 10% of them don't count (boons, consumables, whatever reason) and there's 5 bundles per adventure and 20 H1 adventures (with no bundle redundancy), that means the odds of a single item you want showing up in a bundle are 13%.  The odds of at least two (out of four) of the items you want are 9%.  And this assume you play those adventures (you can reasonably only play 12 of the adventures).  This situation can only get worse as large numbers of adventures retire, new magic items are published (and new magic items reflect not only power creep, but the specific needs of new builds that need them, like when Totems first appeared). 

[Please check my math, my stats knowledge is old....]

The result of the current system is that the smartest way to make a character is to read all the bundles in all the adventures and design a character that can use those bundles (or rather, doesn't need too many items that are NOT in those bundles).

Most of the complaints I see is around abuse of specific items (the funny cube, dice of cheese, etc.).  The problem there is the item, not the system.  People will find ways to get those items no matter what, and a magic item rewards system that makes it hard to get "cheesy" items also makes it hard to get all items. 

Jul 29, 2010 -- 9:00PM, Keithric wrote:

I don't see how it would be simpler... and it'd be able to be used by an awful lot of characters to be more powerful than they are now.

And you'd have to answer all the questions that campaigns like Xen'drik had to - like how to handle consumables.

I think Allen already pointed out consumables follow LG rules, not Xendrik (when you use it, it's gone - it's lost wealth).  I think under Allen's system he's not suggesting you can "rebuild" every game/level (although realistically, I think the Admin's are almost to that point now anyway).  You have the GP of a 5th level PC, when you level to 6, you get the GP equivalent of say a level 8 item, but once you've spent it it's gone. 

You can bank/hoard your wealth - but saving that 3400gp now won't help you much at level 14 (in this case, as I think Allen is trying to accomplish, the value of your Level 6 bundle does not change if you try to cash it in at level 14; a level 8 item is a level 8 item and is much more valuable when you get it at level 6 then it is at level 14, unlike a magic item slot). 

Jul 30, 2010 -- 7:20AM, kilpatds wrote:

Jul 29, 2010 -- 5:30PM, grandpoobah wrote:

Dang, it was too tempting

When determining the baseline, you just took the whole party gold and split it evently?  I only took half of that, because I assumed the other half was used to buy a magic item for the one person who didn't find one.

I split the total gold five-ways (evenly).  I didn't assume the cash was spent to help out the guy that didn't get a magic item that level (them's the breaks...).  My magic item system took into account that somebody got left out every five levels.  I've also suggested that it wouldn't be bad to drop the total bundle number from 30 to 24 to reflect this (but that should go over like lead balloon...).