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1 year ago ::
Dec 05, 2011 - 2:09PM
#21
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Date Joined:
Mar 10, 2003
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I believe (though this is far from my area of expertise) that the rebuilt Fuso and Yamashiro still carried equivalent armament, whereas Effingham was substantially more powerful than her sister ships after the refit.
Steve
If your only tool is a warhammer, every problem looks like a gnoll.
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1 year ago ::
Dec 05, 2011 - 7:19PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Apr 26, 2007
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Putting aside what was done in the past, I did some of the background research on the history of the five ships built for this class for the draft list. In my note to RB I expressed my opinion that Effingham was different enough in armament to justify a separation from the other two remaining active cruisers. Replacing seven old open mounted 7.5 inch guns with nine modern 6-inch guns in three turrets is a very significant change in armament. And the removal of two boilers that led to one stack also reduced her speed a bit. A single stack and a radically different main armament means a different ship to me. I could have gone with either decision ( 2 or 3), but I think 2 is more accurate. Anyway, if we get to Set 10 or 11 we will need Effingham as a new rare sculpt. 
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1 year ago ::
Dec 05, 2011 - 10:32PM
#23
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Putting aside what was done in the past, I did some of the background research on the history of the five ships built for this class for the draft list. In my note to RB I expressed my opinion that Effingham was different enough in armament to justify a separation from the other two remaining active cruisers. Replacing seven old open mounted 7.5 inch guns with nine modern 6-inch guns in three turrets is a very significant change in armament. And the removal of two boilers that led to one stack also reduced her speed a bit. A single stack and a radically different main armament means a different ship to me.
I could have gone with either decision ( 2 or 3), but I think 2 is more accurate. Anyway, if we get to Set 10 or 11 we will need Effingham as a new rare sculpt.
weeds... 6 inch guns would make her uncommon...
at least nurnburg listed as a one-off hopefully means RB plans to do a leipzig and possibly as a new sculpt
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1 year ago ::
Dec 05, 2011 - 11:32PM
#24
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Date Joined:
Sep 29, 2005
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I do not doubt that Fuso and Yamashiro share similar abilities and Effingham would warrant different stats.
Its just that Yamashiro and Fuso had visible OPTICAL differences (turret orientation), but share the same mold.
In the same way I think Effingham could use the Hawkins sculpt, but with the (deserved) new stats
A precedent "Might" be the Richelieu/Jean Bart - same sculpt (- one turret I agree) different - much different - stats, but one class... The HAwkins and Effingham would be much more similar...
BTW I would prefer a one off UK Carrier instead of a modernized one off Cruiser - that could easily represented by a reprint instead of a new sculpt for the Cruiser...
...,... and Rock'n Roll - but Minis are fun too...
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1 year ago ::
Dec 06, 2011 - 1:53PM
#25
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Date Joined:
Apr 26, 2007
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weeds... 6 inch guns would make her uncommon...
at least nurnburg listed as a one-off hopefully means RB plans to do a leipzig and possibly as a new sculpt
My bad. Good point. And another reason they differ enough to not be counted together.
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1 year ago ::
Dec 06, 2011 - 2:04PM
#26
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Date Joined:
Apr 26, 2007
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I do not doubt that Fuso and Yamashiro share similar abilities and Effingham would warrant different stats.
Its just that Yamashiro and Fuso had visible OPTICAL differences (turret orientation), but share the same mold.
In the same way I think Effingham could use the Hawkins sculpt, but with the (deserved) new stats
A precedent "Might" be the Richelieu/Jean Bart - same sculpt (- one turret I agree) different - much different - stats, but one class... The HAwkins and Effingham would be much more similar...
BTW I would prefer a one off UK Carrier instead of a modernized one off Cruiser - that could easily represented by a reprint instead of a new sculpt for the Cruiser...
I personally think a change in funnels is enough to 'justify' a new sculpt let alone the turrets. If you really want to point out a past 'mistake' the Renown/Repulse is a much more obvious one IMO.
But just because previous mini's have taken more 'license' than we think they should have doesn't mean this one has to as well. As Enabrantain pointed out changing the classification from a heavy cruiser to a light cruiser is a fairly significant factor too.
Another example for you: The USS Lexington should have had its full width forward flight deck. Lexington had the upgrade to the flight deck before the war started. Saratoga did not have the flight deck modification until spring of 1942. The Saratoga miniature is an accurate pre-war sculpt for both carriers prior to 1940. And I like it a lot! But the Lexington sculpt is a wierd half-right (removed 8 inch turrets) half-wrong (old flight deck) sculpt. I am glad RB changed the guns for a nice way to differentiate the two, but it is certainly still not accurate. To make things even more confusing, I think the sculpt has the post-refit shortened stack.
I understand that the goal of this game is not a detailed simulator so I don't let most of these things bother me. Except minis that are grossly out-of-scale like Ciao Duilio and Buffaloes. I am really glad RB held back ORP/HMS Dragon for a re-scale. It is just a shame it had to be an uncommon slot!
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1 year ago ::
Dec 06, 2011 - 11:35PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Sep 29, 2005
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I'd rather have a misscaled Dragon and a Java instead of c correct Dragon... The correct scale for the D-class could have come with a later "reprint" I think we all have different tastes, but I would think that a list that is updated with each new set could have done in a way that uses the same criteria foa all ships If Hawkins and Effingham a re different the At Least Richelieu and Jean BArt should be considered different too If the French BBS are considered same class then the Hawkinses should be same class too Its really not a big issue, just one more of the little things that just make me mad about this game
...,... and Rock'n Roll - but Minis are fun too...
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1 year ago ::
Dec 07, 2011 - 10:59AM
#28
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Date Joined:
Apr 26, 2007
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I'd rather have a misscaled Dragon and a Java instead of c correct Dragon...
That's an interesting thought. I would agree if I thought 1) they would bother rescale it and make a new mold (very expensive) as a reprint, and 2) I was confident there are going to be enough sets going forward to see it again.
Overall, it is usually better to get it right the first time. 
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