|
4 years ago ::
Jan 19, 2009 - 11:10AM
#11
|
Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2008
|
Thanks for the reply.
Cases 1 and 4 contradict.
In case one you have to collect hits normally following defensive fire but in case four you have a tank that received a face down damaged and face up disrupted marker skipping the face down disrupted and going straight to destroyed. Is there a reason for this I'm not seeing?
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Jan 19, 2009 - 11:29AM
#12
|
Date Joined:
Mar 10, 2003
|
And that's one of the reasons why it's confusing.
The difference is that in example #1, the first two hits come from two separate attacks. The defensive fire failed to achieve a second hit that would stack with the disruption, and the chance to do so is past. Subsequent attacks are normal attacks against an already disrupted target.
In example #4, the first two hits come from the same attack. Because it's a lethal defensive fire attack, they 'stack' in this unusual way. They're just like two hits from any single attack, except the first one is placed face-up. Effectively, that first marker counts as both a face-up disruption marker AND a face-down hit counter, because they both came from the same attack. The second hit 'closes the door' on needing to place a face-down disruption marker.
Yes, it's strange, but that's how it works.
Steve
If your only tool is a warhammer, every problem looks like a gnoll.
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Jan 19, 2009 - 9:12PM
#13
|
Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2008
|
Okay, let's try a case six given that answer.
If a soldier is hit by defensive fire from two different defensive fire attacks does he receive...
a) a face up disrupt
b) a face up disrupt and a face down destroyed
c) a face down disrupt and a face up disrupt
I'm not sure based on the single attack rational.
Sorry to be asking, but it is confusing.
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Jan 20, 2009 - 8:43AM
#14
|
Date Joined:
Mar 10, 2003
|
None of the above, actually. (Or A and B, depending on the circumstances.)
Remember that defensive fire is different from normal attacks. If you're using the standard rules, then the only effect of defensive fire is face-up disruption. If you're using the expanded rules, then the first hit from any and every defensive fire attack is always a face-up disruption. With that in mind:
The soldier (defense 4/4) moves and draws defensive fire. He takes one hit, so a face-up disruption marker is placed. There is a second unit, however, which is also in position to use defensive fire.
In the standard rules, there's no point in making that second attack, because the most you can do is score another face-up disruption. Those don't stack, so the attack is a waste no matter what.
In the expanded rules, you could make that attack and hope to achieve something more. Here's how it works.
The second unit attacks. The target unit, because it's been hit once by defensive fire, is already disrupted. Its defense is down to 3/3. The attacking unit rolls 3 successes, meaning it scores 1 hit. But, the first hit from any and every defensive fire attack is always a face-up disruption marker. This attack, therefore, has no additional effect.
Now let's look at what happens if the second attack had scored 4 successes. In that case, it would achieve 2 hits. The first would be face-up disruption (no additional effect) and the second would be face-down destruction (because we're using the expanded rules).
It's important to see that the second attack achieved that success because the first attack disrupted the target and lowered its defense. In fact, both attacks rolled the same number of successes. The first attack rolled 4 successes, equalling the target's defense and causing it to become disrupted. The second attack also rolled 4 successes, but because the target was previously disrupted, they exceeded its lowered defense and scored the 2 hits from a single attack that are needed to push defensive fire into 'lethal' territory.
Steve
If your only tool is a warhammer, every problem looks like a gnoll.
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Jan 20, 2009 - 10:12PM
#15
|
Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2008
|
Thank you, that clears it up the remaining issues.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Dec 14, 2011 - 5:40AM
#16
|
Date Joined:
Dec 31, 2008
|
And that's one of the reasons why it's confusing. The difference is that in example #1, the first two hits come from two separate attacks. The defensive fire failed to achieve a second hit that would stack with the disruption, and the chance to do so is past. Subsequent attacks are normal attacks against an already disrupted target.
Can you expain my example: following yours #1,
Kfz 251 and 2x Howitzer with overwatch. Kfz moves,
Howitzer 1º DF 1 hit, disrupted face up marker for the vehicle.
Howitzer 2º DF 1 hit (yes, only 1 hit, 1 success for a defense of 1 of the Kfz 251), disrupted face down marker.
in other words
If you're using the expanded rules, then the first hit from any and every defensive fire attack is always a face-up disruption.
The first DF with success is a hit, the second DF with success is a hit. The first hit is a face-up disruption, but the 2º hit (2nd Howitzer) a face down disrupted marker.
Is correct?
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Dec 14, 2011 - 7:59AM
#17
|
Date Joined:
Sep 29, 2005
|
I don't play expanded rules, but I think defensive fire is always triggered by movement.
So if I move my unit and trigger (potential) defensive fire from multiple units, would not the first sucessful stop my unit, so that it would never trigger the DF from the remainig enemy units..?
I ask because the -1/-1 for being disrupted seem to kick in immediately, so not moving would ALSO kick in immediately, and the folowing units would NOT gain the prerequisite to fire at an moving unit.
Its confusing...
...,... and Rock'n Roll - but Minis are fun too...
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Dec 14, 2011 - 10:03AM
#18
|
Date Joined:
Dec 31, 2008
|
I m trying to inflict the maximum damage to the Kfz 251. Howitzers in the same hex are on overwatch 12 hexes away.
Kfz moves in the row of hexes of overwacht limit, then lethal DF act.
Note are 2 expanded rules, overwatch, lethal DF. Its not easy for the players who dont play with.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Mar 07, 2012 - 9:25AM
#19
|
|
|
I have a question about defensive fire and disruption. How does it work with aircraft? I know that when an aircraft is placed beside a unit with the Anti-Air ability that unit gets to make a defensive fire shot against the aircraft, but what happens if its successful? Do you remove the aircraft from the board immediately or does it continue its attack with penalties?
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Mar 07, 2012 - 12:19PM
#20
|
|
|
I have a question about defensive fire and disruption. How does it work with aircraft? I know that when an aircraft is placed beside a unit with the Anti-Air ability that unit gets to make a defensive fire shot against the aircraft, but what happens if its successful? Do you remove the aircraft from the board immediately or does it continue its attack with penalties?
From the Expanded rulebook pg 27:
"Aircraft and Antiair: If an Aircraft is placed in a hex adjacent to a unit with the Antiair ability, then the Aircraft provokes a defensive-fire attack from that unit. Other than the condition that provokes it, this attack is a normal defensive-fire attack."
Defensive fire verses aircraft are handled the same way as soldiers or vehicles. The difference is that aircraft are placed on the board while soldiers and vehicles have to move to provoke defensive fire. So for example: Player A places an aircraft figure adjacent to a ground unit with the Antiair SA. Player B opts to fire at the aircraft with defensive fire. He rolls enough successes to equal (or exceed) the aircraft's defense. A face up disruption counter is immediately placed on the aircraft. In the air strike phase, Player A opts to attack with this plane. Because it is face-up disrupted, it rolls its' attack dice with a -1 penalty.
In the following assault phase, Player B opts to attack the disrupted enemy aircraft. It now has -1 to its' defense because it is face-up disrupted. Enough rolled success' equaling or exceeding the current defense of the aircraft would result in face-down counters being placed onto it. At the end of this turn during the casualty phase, the face-up disruption counter is removed and any face-down counters on this aircraft are now flipped face-up. If it now has a disruption, it will have to sit out a turn before it can be placed on the board again. if it now has a destroy counter, it is removed from play.
|
|
|
