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My friend and I are going to GenCon, and there is supposed to be a 150pt tourney this year. We've been going on about what is good for this and that, and at all times we come back to deciding about how to beat tragicmishap's Challenge from last year.

That said, we thought that we should examine if tragicmishap's "perfect army" scales up to 150pts, or if it is really the result of being in the 100pt environment that makes it so difficult. Some first thoughts about this led me to this expansion on the "perfect army":

2xSS-Haup
2xWES
Griz. Vet.
Wehr. OLT
2xBMW
2xSNLF Fanatics
Pzschreck
2xSS-ST
4xSS-PG
2xWVI
Vet. Fallschirmjaeger

The second SS-Haup is both for redundancy, and to allow separate groups to benefit from the disruption removal. The new maps aren't so full of cover, and it will be harder to conceal them from flank attacks, or give them cover rolls from aircraft, which are much more likely to fit into 150pts. The Wehr OLT in place of the Imp. Sgt. for Angriff is also a backup AT, along with the Panzerschreck, since heavy tanks are both cheaper, and easier to take in pairs, so that the Headshot/BMW/Griz. Vet. or Angriff/Griz. Vet./SS-ST isn't the principal way to beat heavies. Plus, now that there are Experienced Recon units to hunt snipers, the WES isn't safe. Taking a second one not only provides redundancy, but an extra Headshot. The two snipers continue to be the only long range firepower, and I didn't deem an MG42 a good addition. The 2 WVI's for the same cost as one MG42 gives two Suppression Fire locations for the cost of one. The SS-ST complement was changed because instead of trying to push their CA8 for defense against heavies they way he had before, there are now two actual AT units (Wehr. OLT and Pzschreck). The trade from SS-ST to SS-PG gives better medium range fire than before, again reducing the need for an MG. The SNLF Fanatics are still there for their HtH, and keeping the defenses 5/5 as much as possible, and I also added a Vet. Fallschirmjaeger so that this otherwise-immobile force can threaten Ammo Dumps, mortars, etc., without forcing the BMW's to run any gauntlets. It's also a good hero-spawn, and that threat can be maintained longer.

FYI, one of the optimal counters to this, at either 100 or 150 pts, is a pair of Calliopes launching simultaneous rocket salvoes, with the Sherman Commander providing an extra die! On turn one, with an Ammo Dump, this is a primary tactic (since an Ammo Dump can't be expected to survive past turn one, given aircraft, para, partisans, etc.) They have their own problems in other situations, but it seems the core of many forces we've discussed. At 150pts, it's almost mandatory to defeat 5/5 infantry swarms, since the Calliope's rocket salvo doesn't get Inaccurate.

My friend will be constructing his version this week, and we're going to test them against other 150pt forces we've been developing for the tournament. If anyone has any other suggestions, let me know. We're also discussing heavy tank forces at 150pts, and have some good ideas for that, too. I'll leave that for another thread. :plotting:

AH_FNG wrote:

The problem I see with the build is that the tournament may limit you too only two special units per 100pt build. Special units include Hero, Partisan, Paratrooper and 5/5 defence soldiers.
Other than that, I would not like to face that build.
FNG-out

DCI doesn't acknowledge anything other than 1 hero per 500 pts. If non-DCI rules are being added, nothing has been posted. The new limits are Expanded Rules, not Advanced (standard) Rules, and Expanded Rules are not being used in any tournaments at GenCon.

The other thing which wasn't clarified is whether or not new unit limits will be enforced with the higher point total. The scuttlebutt about the rules updates will be no limits, but it remains to be seen if they will be out in time for GenCon. We're assuming some kind of unit limit change, since 150 points limited to 15 units will force more expensive units into the game. My 150-pt force has 20 units, which is what WaS has for 200 point games. Raised point limits with lowered unit limits will force the game in new directions, to be sure. But, the word is that unit limits will be removed entirely (good news for nations with no heavy tanks).

AH_warspite wrote:

The scuttlebutt about the rules updates will be no limits, but it remains to be seen if they will be out in time for GenCon.

Even if the rules have been released by then they will have no bearing on a sanctioned DCI event.

Best Bet is to game the victory conditions. If I recall correctly, DCI is 60 minute rounds. This means nearly all games will go to points well before anyone is required to contest the objective.

Random Thoughts:

One option is to take out a few enemy units quickly, gain a point advantage, then turtle or cat-and-mouse until time runs out.

Everyone is going to field enough units to take out one Ammo Dump, but what about two? Its tempting to take two dumps - and if one survives past turn three there is a very good chance of victory against nearly any army.

The 150 point Perfect Army above has no AA other than SS-PG. Its AT depends heavily on the WE Snipers. Reasonably efficient counter build is Corsair (Bombs) and US 81mm Mortar to take the Snipers out early then follow up with heavy tank(s).

Note: for those of you who have grown accustomed to Enfilade fire, 5/5 infantry backed up by HStFü are a lot tougher to kill under Advanced Rules.

Most armies are likely to be built around known problem units mentioned in this thread.

Outcome will likely be decided by Rock-Paper-Scissors.

Yeah, I was thinking that planes are much more doable at 150pts (more like a certainty), and this army should swap out at least 1 SSPG/ST/Fanatic for a 20mm AA.

Also, in the 150 army I posted, I put two actual AT units (Panzerschreck and Wehr. OLT) for contesting the objective. The question comes down to whether or not 150 pts can field enough infantry-killing armor or artillery to force the perfect army into coming out, or hiding too far from the objective. That's why the paired Calliopes are a good combo. Mortars/howitzers sound good, but I don't like to allow cover rolls to defeat an otherwise devastating attack.

Another thought I had was that, instead of adding 50 more points of similar forces, to go a different route, and add a Stuka and Me Ace, plus extra soldiers. Then, there is a fighter to counter enemy planes, and the Stuka to hunt AI armor (few heavy tanks are good AI). Especially for the Calliope case, the Stuka attacks one of them turn one, even if it dies, in order to, at least, damage it, and give it -1DR for the rocket salvo. Calliope can't return fire, so something else has to engage the Stuka. The Me Ace covers for it, in case of actual planes; the Stuka's Slow only affects air attacks.

Of course, if the opponent takes something other than a Calliope, the perfect army is in better shape. Defeating it requires attempting to destroy at least one 5/5 per turn in order to keep pace with what the perfect army kills in return. Something with Bombard is needed, or -1 to cover at the very least. No point letting Haup's clean up disruptions. If not for that, this would be much easier, so the Haup's need to be negated, either by killing them outright (rocket salvo) or not permitting cover rolls at all for the rest of the army.

Now, back to tragic's challenge: what could both pound on 5/5 soldiers, AND have enough AT punch to kill 7/7 tanks (possibly SA2 or even 3)? I've thought about taking a different tack altogether. Bring two heavy tanks, and enough AI to keep them clean from CA's. Some number crunching and specific tactics have led me to 2 KT's and something supporting them. The perfect army will have a damned hard time hurting them, even with Headshot, as will any air attack. My friend leans toward 2 Vet Tigers instead, for the Crack Shot, but I'm concerned that the lower defense runs too much of risk of losing one in a duel of heavies. The goal is to cat-and-mouse until turn six, then run one or both to the objective, and endure several turns of CA's. Lose one tank, you probably lose the battle, so the goal is to not lose a tank. Two Fallschirmjaegers and a Grizzled Veteran provide support on the objective to keep CA's to a minimum. We also considered the Tiger I's for their Overrun, and have them keep dancing back and forth, sitting on disrupted soldiers, so that at best only 1 undisrupted (and then possibly Angriffed) CA has a chance of hurting them. The support units take out the snipers (esp. Fallschirmjaegers and/or BMW's) to keep Headshots from being too much trouble.

Either way, some pair of Tigers kills Croc's at range, so there's no fear of that combo. A Sherman swarm should need one, or preferably two, Sherman 17-pdrs, for the AP rounds. The Allies are terribly short on heavy AT, without resorting to heavies of their own, having little to compare with the variety of 15/13/11 guns of the Germans in the 17-35 point range, not to mention 88mm variants.

But, perhaps I've said too much.... :plotting: