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5 years ago ::
Jun 19, 2008 - 11:53PM
#31
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Date Joined:
Sep 29, 2005
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I know I would be right ****** if I brought a build of, i dunno a Richelieu and five Laffeys, and my opponent insisted my boats don't 'really' do what the card clearly says they do and the latest 'clarifications' PDFs don't mention anything of the sort.
Houserules! man its Houserules - I do not expect that my houserules will be used in other enviroments than my HOUSE 
If you play at my place you play my rules ;9 If I play at yours I play your rules...
99.9% it will be "as written", but occasionally a fix is necessary.
II reread most USN ship cards (even the unused ones) amnd considering all that is known now, I came to the onclusion that soon the Sumners will collect dust in the tackle box, because the Fletcher is still more cost effective and IIRC in the last games I (or opponents) used Fletchers they were only fillers with a good ASW - I do not expect the Sumners to fill that role equally well.
Javelins OTOH are quite battle worn
...,... and Rock'n Roll - but Minis are fun too...
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5 years ago ::
Jun 19, 2008 - 11:58PM
#32
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The game was getting stale after 17 months without new units. It needed new units and the main way to add diversity to game play is to come up with creative SA's. I don't need another generic destroyer with the same old SA's.
It is impossible to come out with more miniatures in these types of games and have them all be 'perfect.' I have never seen perfection in any of these types of games. If Richard goes too conservative on units and SA's the game will be criticized for being 'more of the same' and boring. If he get's too creative everyone screams it is crazy. I prefer to let his team get creative. There are bound to be a few units or stats that get off-track a bit. If that turns out to be case after some game play they can be adjusted with house rules. But I am not even close to being convinced there is anything wrong with the Laffey at this point from a game play perspective. It adds new dimensions to strategy for playing with it and against it. That is what new units are supposed to do in a game like this. Upset the apple cart and force everyone to come up with new strategies.
Keep an open mind. I think we have just been stuck with the original 64 units for too long. 
I don't know if you also play AAM, but the thing is with very SIMPLE changes the SA's could have been much more logical. E.g. what they did to overwatch ( long range defensive fire attack) is say that all units having relocate 2 can make such attacks. This meant that mortars can make such attacks and the 88 mm Flak and Machine guns cannot...Do you see the logic behind that? ( The former they corrected, though, albeit that yet another one of those famous PDF files was needed for it). What they actually meant the ability to be is: All units can make long ranged defensive fire attacks but only against vehicles ( so never against soldier type units). Personally I still find it strange that machine guns cannot be put on overwatch against soldiers, but at least then you would have had a consistent ruling that also makes more sense than what the rule currently states.
In the case of " uniquely tough" they could have made the ability sth like: ignores the first bomb hit or it becomes crippled when otherwise it would have been destroyed. It still makes it a tough unit, but NOT indistructible.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 21, 2008 - 3:42PM
#33
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Date Joined:
Apr 26, 2007
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I don't play the land game, but I have played Mechwarrior for the last four years or so. That game has a virtual book of errata! I think the more expansions a game has, and the quicker they come out the more likely 'out of balance' units will be created - either over-powered or so-called 'filler' (of little use). It is like anything done in large volume - some things will be better than others.
As I have said before, I am not prepared to declare the Laffey 'broken' until 1) I have had a chance to play it and most important 2) the rest of Set II is released so we can see what the Axis get in return.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 22, 2008 - 1:39PM
#34
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I think the 20/20 hindsight will come into play here. All we've seen on stats is these two units thus far (out of 60) - we don't know how the rest of the set will shape up. We do know, just like all other minis for A&A, there's the game balance and historical aspects (with a nice twist since WaS has unique units). As Rich Baker stated earlier, there's always the "puzzle of balancing rarity, nation mix, 'real-world' records of the various ships, game requirements and, oh yeah, try to economize on the number of new sculpts...while keeping an eye out for what might be coming in a possible Set IV someday."
After collecting Star Wars and A&A land minis for years now and seeing how they've changed SAs and point values over time (more complex and making earlier pieces useless, esp. Star Wars), I hope they keep the "entire game" in perspective and have balance between the various sets (hoping for more than two). Time will tell. Until then, I'll keep collecting and playing.
"I wish to have no Connection with any Ship that does not Sail fast for I intend to go in harm's way."WaS Base: 64/64 (632) WaS TF: 60/60 (518) WaS FS: 40/40 (339) WaS 2010 Starter: 8/8 (32) WaS CZ: 40/40 (220) WaS V: 40/40 (200) WaS SA: 40/40 (120) TOTAL: 2061 AH defender390's Trade List
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5 years ago ::
Jun 22, 2008 - 2:04PM
#35
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2006
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...As I have said before, I am not prepared to declare the Laffey 'broken' until 1) I have had a chance to play it and most important 2) the rest of Set II is released so we can see what the Axis get in return.
Broken? In it's own sense...maybe not in a game sense. It will still be easily destroyed, but just not by planes unless they get lucky and strafe it into the depths.
Frankly, the "bomb immunity" thing bugs me. They've introduced an absolute that doesn't make sense. It takes away an element of choice that was possible in reality. Now yes, before all the angry voices come out, it's a game and I know it. But if WoTC makes a destroyer that cannot be sunk by bombs (when a BB can), then anything goes. That's a game...but it isn't WWII naval battle (outside of fantasy).
A friend of mine explained that the AA would drive planes away, thus the bombs. This doesn't make sense because the bombs can cripple the vessel...and after that they meet the impregnable hull. Keep in mind that a crippled ship shoots its AA worse than an undamaged vessel.
Nope. The Laffey won't kill a win for any opponent on its own...just the historical sensibility of the unit itself.
Whosoever conquers others has force. Whosoever conquers himself is strong. --Lao Tzu  Outrider Northern Contingent of the SYRACUSE-BINGHAMTON ALLIANCE
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5 years ago ::
Jun 22, 2008 - 3:10PM
#36
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2002
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It's a game and you know it!
Oh, wait... damn.
Methinks the real point of this unit was to discourage then-competitive 'planes & subs' builds that obliterated the opponent before that third white dot could be had. Apparently, this unit must have been designed before the "Clarifications" neutered planes and subs, and made it possible to "win" after being decisively eliminated.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 22, 2008 - 3:58PM
#37
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Date Joined:
Oct 12, 2004
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Wow, I have to say the USS Laffey is under cost for what it does. I have to agree with the consensus that Uniquely Tough is a bit too much. They should’ve made it like USS Enterprise’s SA Survivor except for Bombs. If I’m reading the text right it looks like air torpedo and gunnery attacks still can sink it. If strafing can sink it while bombs can’t, it makes all the sense in the world.  For me the Radar Ploket can make this ship kinda nasty. Granted it has one use, but if you have a couple of them it can make a difference in game. In any event, with all its stats and SAs at preliminary it looks like the Laffey is going to be the destroyer of choice to field.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 22, 2008 - 4:07PM
#38
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2006
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It's a game and you know it!
Oh, wait... damn.
...
Hah! You are duly foiled. :P
I'll probably play one or two...and chuckle.
Whosoever conquers others has force. Whosoever conquers himself is strong. --Lao Tzu Outrider Northern Contingent of the SYRACUSE-BINGHAMTON ALLIANCE
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5 years ago ::
Jun 22, 2008 - 8:58PM
#39
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Date Joined:
Apr 26, 2007
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Broken? In it's own sense...maybe not in a game sense. ...
Frankly, the "bomb immunity" thing bugs me. They've introduced an absolute that doesn't make sense. It takes away an element of choice that was possible in reality. Now yes, before all the angry voices come out, it's a game and I know it. But if WoTC makes a destroyer that cannot be sunk by bombs (when a BB can), then anything goes. That's a game...but it isn't WWII naval battle (outside of fantasy).
A friend of mine explained that the AA would drive planes away, thus the bombs. This doesn't make sense because the bombs can cripple the vessel...and after that they meet the impregnable hull. Keep in mind that a crippled ship shoots its AA worse than an undamaged vessel.
Nope. The Laffey won't kill a win for any opponent on its own...just the historical sensibility of the unit itself.
You clearly have the right to feel any way you like about it. It does not disturb my historical sensibility at all. I think the 'bomb immunity' SA is a very clever one that ties in nicely with the historical experience of the USS Laffey. It is just one unit and there are plenty of other ways to destroy it. And I think from a game play perspective it adds a nice twist to strategy.
It has been clearly demonstrated on these boards that the borderline between 'what if' and 'fantasy' is in a different place for everyone. I don't even know where I would kick back. I haven't seen anything (official) yet that causes me alarm. I have certainly seen posts with ideas that would cause me alarm though! 
Tomorrow is a new Opening Salvo and new chance to start a flame war. Oh boy! :D
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5 years ago ::
Jun 23, 2008 - 12:03AM
#40
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Date Joined:
Sep 29, 2005
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This game stnds on several feet. one is that the design team wnated to include some "real" world records into the units. But how to do that? Including the "bad" experiences is one possible way (HOOD!), but who wants to play bad units So using the "best" feat as base is the way to go. As the Allies and especially the US had more units than the Axis - its easier to find some lucky ones and include them in the game i reread some flavor text on the cards and i found out a disturbing tendency. Great feats of US ships were used to construct the units, while feats of axis ships were largely ignored. some examples: I-19 - this sub damaged/sunk 2 capital US ships with one torpedo spread - I bet if it was an US sub it would have a SA like: Lucky spread. If this unit scores a hit on a ship, then it can make another attack on another ship in the same sector as the hit ship. Bismarck. could also have "lucky hit" if this units attacks another BB and scores 4 (5,6,...) sixes on the attack roll the other ship is destroyed immediately (what it did on Hood) - one could argue that it was bad design on the Hood, but it could also be a lucky hit that could have happened on all contemporary BBs... I assume this "preferring" of the Allies and US is the product of an (unconscious) patriotism which lets the designers select good traits more easily when dealing with friendly ships. But actually I believe this real world traits make the game attractive, but they should be balanced. Letting the ship roll a save - OK, making it immune - NO - NEver. The Laffey rides a small fence, its immune to one attack, but it can be destroyed by other means (and its not difficult). Also there are other SAs out there that are quite nice, but I believe so far none is breaking the game. A bit more evenly distributed bit more evenly between axis and allies (for example IOWA/Richelieu being the ones with longest range - are the most difficult to kill - IOWA is another fence rider :D) Giving Tirpitz the same ER and AA capability will definitly help So my plead - Keep the laffey, but do not put mnore cheese into the sandwich than this :D
...,... and Rock'n Roll - but Minis are fun too...
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