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• Take the good things that you learned from 4e put into a much more open and option rich system like 3.5.  
• Kill the forced format of AEDU (EG everyone gets the same quantity of AEDU powers) but make sure that the concept is reflected (especialy for martial classes) with maneuvers at will, ki powers per encounter, spellcasting as daily etc... 
• Make sure that spells are as interesting as 3.5 spells, but limit the silliness of high-level power for casters.  Keep at will attack cantrips.  
• Put feats back to the power level of 3.5
• Ensure that each class has a decent list of customization options (ala Pathfinder rage powers, rogue talents etc.)
• Allow for PF style Archtypes (minor variant, great move by pathfinder)
• Kill the 3.5 multiclass insanity by fixing classes
• End the assuumed prestige class BS of 3.5
• Keep the limited healing stylings of 4e (but tweak it)
• Keep bloodied
• Keep the HP scale of 4e (more HP at low level, shallower scaling)
• Remove the homogenized scaling for classes
• Keep magical defenses over saving throws OR the effective DC scaling that entails so that low level spells remain useful
• Use a 2e style (or even DDN style) of magical items.  No assumed +6 stat belt by X level.  Math not constrained by boring items.
• Murder Bounded Accuracy in the face with an axe and then light it on fire inside of a public toilet while we watch and shout insults at it.

Mar 21, 2013 -- 6:58PM, Lord_Malkov wrote:

I would prefer a 3.5/4e hybrid.  

• Take the good things that you learned from 4e put into a much more open and option rich system like 3.5.  
• Kill the forced format of AEDU (EG everyone gets the same quantity of AEDU powers) but make sure that the concept is reflected (especialy for martial classes) with maneuvers at will, ki powers per encounter, spellcasting as daily etc... 
• Make sure that spells are as interesting as 3.5 spells, but limit the silliness of high-level power for casters.  Keep at will attack cantrips.  
• Put feats back to the power level of 3.5
• Ensure that each class has a decent list of customization options (ala Pathfinder rage powers, rogue talents etc.)
• Allow for PF style Archtypes (minor variant, great move by pathfinder)
• Kill the 3.5 multiclass insanity by fixing classes
• End the assuumed prestige class BS of 3.5
• Keep the limited healing stylings of 4e (but tweak it)
• Keep bloodied
• Keep the HP scale of 4e (more HP at low level, shallower scaling)
• Remove the homogenized scaling for classes
• Keep magical defenses over saving throws OR the effective DC scaling that entails so that low level spells remain useful
• Use a 2e style (or even DDN style) of magical items.  No assumed +6 stat belt by X level.  Math not constrained by boring items.
• Murder Bounded Accuracy in the face with an axe and then light it on fire inside of a public toilet while we watch and shout insults at it.

I agree with the vast majority of this post.

About the only thing I disagree with is putting feats back to 3.5 style, and the prestige class thing. In 3.5, feats were all over the place in terms of effectiveness and design intent. You had everything from passive bonuses to brand new options. I feel that for a system to succeed a resource like that needs to define what it is supposed to do. Personally, I'm fine with the lower powered feats of 4e, the only real problem was the "math fix feats". You should not be expected to spend feats to maintain basic competency. Instead, I feel that feats should be about specializing your character. Say you get rid of the concept of roles as being linked directly to class, but your feats gear you towards one role or another. Some might give you passive bonuses, others might modify class abilities and/or maneuvers/spells, but none would give you completely new options. But honestly I'd be happy with any feat design as long as it was consistent, which is one thing 3.5 definitely is not.

As for the prestige class thing, I disagree with the idea that they were assumed. They became assumed by the player base at large because they were far and away one of the most interesting methods of character diversification, but the game was perfectly playable without them. Fixing the base classes by giving them all a real resource system, and making prestige classes have a real cost by making the character lose a couple levels of progression of that resource (see: Caster prestige classes that drop a couple caster levels. Take that concept, apply it across the board), helps balance things out a lot, leaves the customization options available, but makes dipping around to 5 different classes for a couple levels each a pretty 'meh' option, and most optimizers wouldn't go for it.


But yeah other than those two points, I agree with pretty much everything you said. Both 3e and 4e had a lot of good points, in 5e I was really hoping to see a fusion of the highlights of each. It's a large part of why I was let down so much initially. Since then, I've lowered my expectations a lot bit WotC continues to find new and interesting ways to disappoint me (hi there d6 class fighter!)

Mar 21, 2013 -- 7:09PM, Seerow wrote:

Mar 21, 2013 -- 6:58PM, Lord_Malkov wrote:

I would prefer a 3.5/4e hybrid.  

• Take the good things that you learned from 4e put into a much more open and option rich system like 3.5.  
• Kill the forced format of AEDU (EG everyone gets the same quantity of AEDU powers) but make sure that the concept is reflected (especialy for martial classes) with maneuvers at will, ki powers per encounter, spellcasting as daily etc... 
• Make sure that spells are as interesting as 3.5 spells, but limit the silliness of high-level power for casters.  Keep at will attack cantrips.  
• Put feats back to the power level of 3.5
• Ensure that each class has a decent list of customization options (ala Pathfinder rage powers, rogue talents etc.)
• Allow for PF style Archtypes (minor variant, great move by pathfinder)
• Kill the 3.5 multiclass insanity by fixing classes
• End the assuumed prestige class BS of 3.5
• Keep the limited healing stylings of 4e (but tweak it)
• Keep bloodied
• Keep the HP scale of 4e (more HP at low level, shallower scaling)
• Remove the homogenized scaling for classes
• Keep magical defenses over saving throws OR the effective DC scaling that entails so that low level spells remain useful
• Use a 2e style (or even DDN style) of magical items.  No assumed +6 stat belt by X level.  Math not constrained by boring items.
• Murder Bounded Accuracy in the face with an axe and then light it on fire inside of a public toilet while we watch and shout insults at it.

I agree with the vast majority of this post.

About the only thing I disagree with is putting feats back to 3.5 style, and the prestige class thing. In 3.5, feats were all over the place in terms of effectiveness and design intent. You had everything from passive bonuses to brand new options. I feel that for a system to succeed a resource like that needs to define what it is supposed to do. Personally, I'm fine with the lower powered feats of 4e, the only real problem was the "math fix feats". You should not be expected to spend feats to maintain basic competency. Instead, I feel that feats should be about specializing your character. Say you get rid of the concept of roles as being linked directly to class, but your feats gear you towards one role or another. Some might give you passive bonuses, others might modify class abilities and/or maneuvers/spells, but none would give you completely new options. But honestly I'd be happy with any feat design as long as it was consistent, which is one thing 3.5 definitely is not.

As for the prestige class thing, I disagree with the idea that they were assumed. They became assumed by the player base at large because they were far and away one of the most interesting methods of character diversification, but the game was perfectly playable without them. Fixing the base classes by giving them all a real resource system, and making prestige classes have a real cost by making the character lose a couple levels of progression of that resource (see: Caster prestige classes that drop a couple caster levels. Take that concept, apply it across the board), helps balance things out a lot, leaves the customization options available, but makes dipping around to 5 different classes for a couple levels each a pretty 'meh' option, and most optimizers wouldn't go for it.


But yeah other than those two points, I agree with pretty much everything you said. Both 3e and 4e had a lot of good points, in 5e I was really hoping to see a fusion of the highlights of each. It's a large part of why I was let down so much initially. Since then, I've lowered my expectations a lot bit WotC continues to find new and interesting ways to disappoint me (hi there d6 class fighter!)

I can agree with most of that.

The assumed PrC thing that I was referring to was that prestige classes in 3e were just flat out better than base classes, and there came a point where the "requirements" didn't really cost the player anything.  PrCs like the Archmage were just Wizard+.  I am okay with prestige classes that are built for flavor that isn't well reflected by other base classes (arcane archer, arcane trickster, theurge, loremaster etc etc.) but there were a ton of prestige classes that were just better versions of the base class (Raging Berzerker for example).  Taking a prestige class should be a lateral option, not a better option.

Zardnaar is right to bring up that SWSE and PF both fixed this issue.  Prestige classes are cool, but they should be an option that is right in line with the power level of a character that chooses to stick with their base class.  3e flubbed this part of things really badly.  

Mar 21, 2013 -- 6:28PM, Zardnaar wrote:

One of my players lied to me egads. They misread the spell for 1d12.

 Ignore that comment. 

Hah! Throw a Call Lightning on his head as punishment!