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3 months ago ::
Mar 19, 2013 - 7:41AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jul 29, 2008
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I don't subscribe to the theory that defender defenses need to be kept within a particular range compared to the rest of the party to be effective. I'm more concerned about wasting resources that could be better spent on something not directly related to pumping defenses through the roof. At what point do you decide that enough is enough? As an example, when I push my swordmage build out to level 30 I end up with the following: "Swordmage 30"
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AC: 55 (10 + 15 half level + 8 INT + 6 ENH + 2 Feat + 3 Warding + 1 Shield + 3 Armor +3 Item + 2 Trick of Knowledge + 2 Concealment)
FORT: 50 (10 + 15 half level + 6 CON + 6 ENH + 4 Feat + 4 Epic FORT + 1 Human + 2 Trick of Knowledge + 2 Concealment)
REF: 52 (10 + 15 half level + 8 INT + 6 ENH + 2 Feat + 4 Epic REF + 2 Armor + 1 Human + 2 Trick of Knowledge + 2 Concealment)
WILL: 53 (10 + 15 half level + 3 CHA + 6 ENH + 4 Feat + 4 Epic WILL + 1 Human + 2 Theme + 2 Class + 2 Item + 2 Trick of Knowledge + 2 Concealment)
Saves: +10 (+2 Feat + 3 Item +5 Trick of Knowledge)
Arcana: +49, re-roll if desired. Relevant for Trick of Knowledge.
I've no experience in Epic Tier. I just know that, based on the above, level 35 Lolth needs a 14+ to land a blow. That strikes me as excessive, but I'm not entirely sure what the target ought to be.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 19, 2013 - 7:51AM
#2
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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The epic defense feats (the extra +4s) largely make the game less fun. This is particularly true if the group has Mantle of Unity.
I also wouldn't waste your weapon enchant on +1 AC.
Keith Richmond
Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
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3 months ago ::
Mar 19, 2013 - 7:54AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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There is no single way to answer this, as much of it depends on the psychology of your DM.
If your DM is actually weighing the hit chances of various targets when he runs the monsters, then even going above the 2-point difference from the mark may cause him to violate it, depending on how strong your mark punishment is. If your DM is anything like the ones I've played with, they will favor adhering to the mark even when there may be a tactically superior option, in which case it's basically as much as you can get.
In short: depends on how your DM runs monsters.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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3 months ago ::
Mar 19, 2013 - 8:02AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Mar 15, 2008
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As I understand it, for a defender, Level + 20 is considered optimal AC, with others being "as close to that as possible." I'd say anything higher than that and you run the risk of your catch-22 mechanic not being effective. Yeah, you can cheese out your defenses, but then (unless you have a DM like Mand12's), the monsters will just go after the other PCs, and you may not be able to effectively punish them for that, especially if you've spent all your resources on better defenses.
It definitely takes balance. You want very good defenses, but you also want the monsters to suffer if they do not attack you.
"Not only are you wrong, but I even created an Excel spreadsheet to show you how wrong you are." --James Wyatt, May 2006
Dilige, et quod vis fac
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3 months ago ::
Mar 19, 2013 - 8:17AM
#5
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It also depends on your playstyle and the party around you. For a while I ran my Swordmage with the Guardian Theme and Freedom Fighter Paragon path so the biggest enemy's choice was to either attack me or attack me still and get smacked for it so the high defenses were worth it.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 19, 2013 - 8:22AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jul 29, 2008
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The epic defense feats (the extra +4s) largely make the game less fun. This is particularly true if the group has Mantle of Unity.
I'm tending to agree, looking at the results. Rather like the pre-essentials expertise feats, I feel bad for taking them but silly for not. "This will help you not die" tends to trump other, more entertaining options.
I also wouldn't waste your weapon enchant on +1 AC.
I'm not. That's a Shielding Blade wrist razor. I couldn't find an arms slot item that excited me, so I went with the generic (and non-controversial) static bonus.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 19, 2013 - 8:57AM
#7
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I'd say if you can get sticky enough, are able stop forced movement on you and shake off dazed and stunned conditions easily there is no need to be shy about your defenses. The higher, the better. As soon as the opposition next to you has a serious chance of getting away from you your defenses shouldn't be higher than 2 or 3 over the other frontliners' defenses.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 19, 2013 - 9:01AM
#8
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There is no "too much" (except by making the game unchallenging), but there is definatly diminishing returns and finite resources. But you still never want to wear a +1 amulet if there's a +5 sitting in your bag.
But the more useful answer is pretty simple.
If your DM is mostly attacks you, then raise your defenses
If your DM is mostly attacks allies, then raise your punishement.
guides
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my builds
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 19, 2013 - 11:09AM
#9
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I'm with mellored; it really depends on the game you are playing. A game I am in right now for Plot reasons I know I'll be targeted alot so I'm spending lots o-feats on defence In a game where I NEVER get hit because of party comp, I focus talents on damage/punishments. Honestly though; your a defender even if you have no punishment and are just an unkillable meat shield you can still do you job very well. Even if the DM knows he can't hit you and targets other players; dosn't mean he can igone when your super-tank walks into the middle of his minion horde or runs up to the BBEG and starts smashing away on it.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 19, 2013 - 1:44PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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There is no "too much" (except by making the game unchallenging), but there is definatly diminishing returns and finite resources. But you still never want to wear a +1 amulet if there's a +5 sitting in your bag.
But the more useful answer is pretty simple.
If your DM is mostly attacks you, then raise your defenses
If your DM is mostly attacks allies, then raise your punishement.
But the issue is that there's no small amount of zero sum situation going on, where you have a choice to either raise your defenses or raise your punishment, and you're left trying to decide which one to pick. You may always wear a +5 armor over a +4 armor, but the question of whether to take a +1 AC feat or something else is a different one entirely.
And yes, you can raise your defenses too high. If your defenses are too high, and your punishment too low (as I said above, they are connected), then you will simply be ignored, and the monsters will go turn your wizard into chunky salsa while you give them a mosquito bite. You want to avoid that situation.
There is a feedback loop present: if your DM mostly attacks you, and you raise your defenses, your DM may start going after your allies. Which is why it's important to understand that optimal defending is always a moving target, one heavily dependent on DMing style.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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