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Apr 10, 2013 -- 1:20AM, Matyr wrote:

Apr 9, 2013 -- 1:48PM, Marshall wrote:

...and if you actually read what I wrote you would have seen where it says "except one flavor prereq" because Ancient Soul and all the following Rebreather feats have exactly zero mechanical connection to the Sorcerer class. They would, in fact, function exactly the same stacked on top of ANY other arcane class and most other non-arcane classes.

Except that prereqs are pretty important.

No, they're not. Prereqs are only relevant when they are necessary for the feature to function. Ancient Souls prereqs are pure flavor.

And the power selection of sorcs to get a ton of off-turn stuff and things that give you encounter long buffs to your defenses.  Honestly most of the levels where I would take things I take things from sorcerer even when I hybrid.

??? What class are you looking at? Sorcs have 2? 3? off-turn powers available in total. Granted, the best of the bunch only work for Dragon Sorcs anyway but even Bards have better off action selections.

As far as the "any other arcane class" bit, part of the Rebreather's most common schtick is "how many instances of +str can I get on my breath".  Being able to start with one from sorc is fairly strong.  Not to mention Sorcerer support for burst and blast (while not wizard) isn't something to scoff at.

No, its not. A breathers damage is capped by what he can resist. To high a STR or even multiple instances of +STR ends up near suicide. All the so-called Sorcerer support for Bursts and Blasts IS Dragonbreath support. Sorcs have none and need to poach Wizard to get to generic AoE support.

Apr 9, 2013 -- 1:48PM, Marshall wrote:

The best rebreather builds Hybrid and/or MC to get away from the Sorcs awful power/feat selection.

Which is also not true at all.  But lets break that statement down.

Hybriding a Rebreather is almost always a bad idea, especially at low levels.  You lose out on a lot of things (for instance you might have to go Ninefold Master instead of something else you wanted because you want your breath to be a sorcerer power now due to hybrid rules).  You can do some schticky things with it, but it isn't going to be a better striker than the pure sorc version (Sorc|Fighter/Assassin perma-invis breather is one such schtick if you were curious).

No. Rebreathers are a capped damage striker. You're wasting resources on adding damage that just hurts you more. Those schticks are what take the concept from DPR King to unplayably broken.

Power Selection: Flame Spiral, Thunder Summons and something to do off-turn.  Other than that the build needs basically nothing.

Here we go again... Flame Spiral is ridiculously overpowered. Great, the enitre Sorcerer power list is saved by one power that managed to avoid the nerf-stick. Awesome. That doesnt mean that the Sorcerers power selection is defensible. Its several piles of garbage with a couple Diamonds underneath. At 17th level finally get to the point that you can hit more than a small portion of the board to relocate them into Nerf-bait range..... You do know that Genasi Wiz has been hitting the entire board since 3rd level, right?

Feat selection: The build is unbelievably strapped for feats.  What class you are makes little difference for feats most of the time not because there aren't things you don't want, but rather because you don't have enough slots.  Honestly if we were talking about what would limit it less I wouldn't say "Sorcerer" I'd say "Dragonborn".  Cause this build wants a human racial feat.

....of course than it doesnt have Dragon Breath and ....
The build is NOT strapped for feats, it has an embarrassment of riches. There are always 2-3 more feats available than you can take. "Gee, I'm sorry that you are attacking at CHA+Imp+6 for 60 damage and 5+ status conditions as a minor action. It's too bad you didnt have space for these three other +DAM/Condition effects."

In paragon there are a lot of encounters that basically end when you do that.  To the point where I don't even play the character to the fullest basically ever to avoid making the game unfun.  And I really need to be a sorcerer to do that.
 

Uh huh. Now take Cheese Spiral out of there(and you pushed, not slid, so it didnt work to start with) and you can play without having to hold back and leave something for your team mates to do.
Either way, the build is entirely functional if you NEVER use a power other than DB and, in most cases, would work better using something OTHER than a Sorc power when it didnt. 

Apr 13, 2013 -- 3:57AM, Fardiz wrote:

You do know what the word prerequisite means? It means you have to have certain attributes for you to take said feat. In this case you have to be a dragon sorcerer to take ancient soul. Saying "it's just for flavour" makes no sense as it is no more flavoursome than any other prerequisite (it would be the same as saying that a ranger cannot take called shot when tallying the difference between a wizard and a ranger).You need to be a dragonborn dragon sorcerer to take ancient soul and you need ancient soul to be a rebreather, therefore you need to be a sorcerer to be a rebreather. QED.

Uh, NO. Theres a HUGE difference between a mechanical prereq that, even an implied mechanical prereq and the crap that Ancient Soul calls a prereq. Explain to me how Ancient Soul would work any differently WITHOUT being a Dragon Sorc? Now explain how it would work without DB. Which one is a prereq and which is Flavor?

On the actual mechanics, you are arguing with the chap who maintains the rebreather thread on charOP so you can be pretty sure that he knows what he's talking about.

So? What he's saying above is 180 from what that thread says.....

As an aside simple flame spiral + mark of storm will easily kick a genasi wizard's damage out of water.

LOL. CB2 vs. CB20. The Sorc can't damage what the Sorc can't reach. 1>0

And that is the question. The question is not "does the sorcerer have good power selection?" it is "can a sorcerer do more damage than a a wizard?". The latter is arguable - there are enough offturn attacks (and minors for those who are not rebreathers - lightning cuts/sohei etc) and they have flame spiral for insane amounts of damage. The latter is certainly true - dead genasi storm sorc or dragonborn dragonsorc can do far more than the genasi wizard, both is total damage and in focus firing.

...and the answer is the Sorcerer can outdamage the Wizard in a CharOp TOFU scenario. In play, the wizard is going to tear it to pieces.

Apr 12, 2013 -- 6:44PM, Marshall wrote:

No, they're not. Prereqs are only relevant when they are necessary for the feature to function. Ancient Souls prereqs are pure flavor.

Not really sure what you are getting on here.  Are you annoyed because a mechanical prereq is based on a fluff reason?  It that is what bothers you... get over it.  Because it is still a mechanical prereq.

??? What class are you looking at? Sorcs have 2? 3? off-turn powers available in total. Granted, the best of the bunch only work for Dragon Sorcs anyway but even Bards have better off action selections.

 

I'm looking at Sorcerer?  2-3 offturn things?  Lets actually look for a sec:
Dragonflame Mantle (U2)
Slaad's Gambit (D5)
Sudden Scales (U6)
Swift Escape (U6)
Spirit's Eclipse (U10)
Dragontail Meditation (E17)
Platinum Scales (U22)
Dragon Fear (U22)

Now I'm ignoring the ones that are bad, but that means that you actually have competition for off-turn powers at several levels.  For that matter "Only 2-3" means what to you?  How many immediates do you want to have?  Remember this is a build that wants you to spend your standard actions doing things like Flame Spiral, Thunder Summons and you will even sac your minors for Draconic Majesty on a regular basis.

No, its not. A breathers damage is capped by what he can resist. To high a STR or even multiple instances of +STR ends up near suicide. All the so-called Sorcerer support for Bursts and Blasts IS Dragonbreath support. Sorcs have none and need to poach Wizard to get to generic AoE support.

This is a problem in heroic.  After heroic, not a problem.  In low paragon you are melting things so quickly that any standard encounter (think of LFR) is going to be dead long before you have to worry about the damage you do to yourself.  In high paragon and epic not only are you dealing significantly less to yourself than the enemy (thus not needing as much resist) but you have access to things like Wyrmtouched Amulet and the entry feature from Avatar of Io.  You don't get "capped on damage" by doing that.

Now all this is ignoring the fact that you are still a fully functional sorcerer.  You lose out on about 4 relevant feats for sorc but you still have your taxes done and are able to connect with your powerful standards (remember, we are not using them to breathe with after all).

No. Rebreathers are a capped damage striker. You're wasting resources on adding damage that just hurts you more. Those schticks are what take the concept from DPR King to unplayably broken.

 

Capped by what? "I bloody myself, but also every enemy is dead" doesn't make it less playable.  And in the rare cases where breathing is a bad idea, you are still a completely functional sorcerer.  You can always not recharge if someone has pumped a Lilting Songblade to 44.

Here we go again... Flame Spiral is ridiculously overpowered. Great, the enitre Sorcerer power list is saved by one power that managed to avoid the nerf-stick. Awesome. That doesnt mean that the Sorcerers power selection is defensible. Its several piles of garbage with a couple Diamonds underneath. At 17th level finally get to the point that you can hit more than a small portion of the board to relocate them into Nerf-bait range..... You do know that Genasi Wiz has been hitting the entire board since 3rd level, right?

Why have you not been hitting most the board since 2nd level as the breather?  You might not be moving them in heroic, but you can hit almost anything you want to.  And your damage will far outstrip what the Genasi is doing after low heroic.  Your argument loses a lot when it turns to this:  "You could be great if you weren't a sorcerer cause sorcerer doesn't have nice things.  Except the nice things that people always build around.  Those nice things are overpowered.  If you ignore them, they don't have nice things."  I mean, that line of reasoning is true (if you also fix the no off-turn actions statement), but is also irrelevant unless someone is telling you specifically can't pick Sparkform, Flame Spiral and Thunder Summons.

....of course than it doesnt have Dragon Breath and ....
The build is NOT strapped for feats, it has an embarrassment of riches. There are always 2-3 more feats available than you can take. "Gee, I'm sorry that you are attacking at CHA+Imp+6 for 60 damage and 5+ status conditions as a minor action. It's too bad you didnt have space for these three other +DAM/Condition effects."

 
2 things:
1) You were talking about getting rid of sorc because of a prereq.  Dragonborn is a prereq of having Dragonbreath (with ED exceptions).  So its a similar line of reasoning, but both are equally pointless.
2)That is what it means to be "feat intensive".  So you misunderstood, but you also agree.  The thing is there aren't that many +damage feats that you are missing out on and the fact that your minor actions are out damaging many classes' standard actions really makes up for it.  Even if you built a normal sorc and used 3 feats to turn yourself into a baseline rebreather your damage is still higher than a normal sorc (and most every wizard).

Uh huh. Now take Cheese Spiral out of there(and you pushed, not slid, so it didnt work to start with)

You can push from the effect.  So when you hurl your breath you are perfectly able to push them away from the effect and into you. (RC 311).  And if you have access to Mark of Storm (which you shouldn't) it matters even less).

and you can play without having to hold back and leave something for your team mates to do.
Either way, the build is entirely functional if you NEVER use a power other than DB and, in most cases, would work better using something OTHER than a Sorc power when it didnt. 

Except that it isn't.  If you pick good sorc powers your sorc powers will do more damage than your breath under most circumstances (and the ones where it doesn't is likely do to +5 damage from Inspiring Breath for your whole party/not having other really large burst powers).  And in heroic you haven't reached the point where you are wiping the map before damage to you matters at all.

Edit: Fixing formatting.