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3 months ago ::
Mar 16, 2013 - 10:44PM
#11
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The game effectively breaks at levels 21/24/26/30 for various characters, depending on your feat/Epic Destiny selections anyway. Monster HP totals and attack stats don't matter when the Wizard just won initiative, clustered all of Team Monster together, Action Pointed to stun them all, and will drop even more conditions on them all again next turn. Oh, one of the creatures had an interrupt to prevent the stun? Guess who the striker is going to plaster with his nova, especially since said creature just used its interrupt for the round and now the striker knows nothing will interrupt him. In short, the math matters less and less in Epic.
Many non-LFR/organized play games will houserule free Improved Defenses and a free Expertise feat to fix those math problems.
This is CharOp. We not only assume block-of-tofu monsters, but also block-of-tofu DMs.
One reach cheese'd threatening reach Spiked Chain shuts down any non-teleporting quarterback.
You're already refluffing, what not refluff to something that doesn't suck?
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3 months ago ::
Mar 17, 2013 - 1:34AM
#12
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Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2008
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The thread isn't trollish. I was asking how things work out in play at higher levels. My experience is mostly in the 1-7 level range, and I've only ran a handful of one-shots at higher levels.
Thus, all I have to look at is the math, and I was asking how things work out in actual play.
So you mostly have experience in the 1-7 range and a handful of one-shots at higher levels and you have enough experience to infer or inquire about things breaking down at higher levels, even when, despite what the math majors say, it DOES NOT due to any number of other variables?
The math might not be perfect, but it doesn't need to be. Your "math" is not the way the game works in reality.
OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player.
3E challenged the character, not the player.
Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM.
That's why I love 4E.
"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."
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3 months ago ::
Mar 17, 2013 - 1:39AM
#13
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Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2008
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Many non-LFR/organized play games will houserule free Improved Defenses and a free Expertise feat to fix those math problems.
Yeah, many will, but the vast majority will not. Because the game works just fine at higher levels, pre-Essentials or post-Essentials.
OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player.
3E challenged the character, not the player.
Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM.
That's why I love 4E.
"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."
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3 months ago ::
Mar 17, 2013 - 2:59AM
#14
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Date Joined:
Jul 29, 2009
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His experiences with high level play (15+) mirror my own, even with the new monster math I find myself having to wildly custom build every monster for every encounter because the monster stats in the Monster Vault and Monster Vault: Nentir's Vale lead to grindy fights. There is a topic on ENworld about grinding down the grindiness and it helps a bit, but the system above fifteen is just a mess and is badly in need of a redesign from the bottom up.
Things that 5E needs to do:
-Make the use of battlemaps/miniatures the default.
-Make healing fun, magical AND non-magical needs to be an option. Long live the Warlord!
-Make magic items feel magic/mythical. I don't want a dagger +1, I want STING.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 17, 2013 - 3:21AM
#15
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His experiences with high level play (15+) mirror my own, even with the new monster math I find myself having to wildly custom build every monster for every encounter because the monster stats in the Monster Vault and Monster Vault: Nentir's Vale lead to grindy fights. There is a topic on ENworld about grinding down the grindiness and it helps a bit, but the system above fifteen is just a mess and is badly in need of a redesign from the bottom up.
I would not be so quick to make that statement. Is this all with the same group of players?
I have yet to ever take a focus feat, or boost a low NAD, and my experiences are mostly 2-3 rounds of fights before mop-up. Particularly LFR adventures are easy, and the only monster modding I would advice there is a boost.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 17, 2013 - 3:25AM
#16
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Date Joined:
Oct 28, 2010
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Most of your problems would be fixed by free improved defences, expertise, and by using Inherent Bonuses (gets rid of the maths fix feats as a problem, and kills the item treadmill stone dead).
The rest is simply a need to understand why multi-attacking is numerically FAR more useful at dealing damage than adding extra [W]s. The other thing to note is that the game IS balanced around a certain level of optimisation. If the characters don't max their attack stat, have their secondary as their second highest stat, and don't take things like weapon focus, superior weapon proficiencies, and pick their powers based on coolness rather than utility, things will get grindy, even with up-to-date monsters. FWIW, a well-opped Slayer can thoroughly murder a Standard at-level on its nova round, probably an Elite with an AP, and should be able to bloody a Solo on its own (easier if you put a couple of item powers in and make it a daily nova) with the same. Slayers are fricking scary with the right kit.
I find it hilarious that you're complaining that 4e is unbalanced having moved from 3.5.
That's not to say the system wouldn't benefit from a comprehensive redesign, but that's not going to happen so...
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3 months ago ::
Mar 17, 2013 - 7:35AM
#17
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Date Joined:
Oct 25, 2009
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First up, there are only 2 actual math fix feats, expertise and improved defenses, all of the others are basically optional.
Also don't forget that even those 2 math fix feats (the so called feat taxes) are optional. In my current campaign (currently high epic tier) I've banned all those feats and guess what.... the game plays just fine.
The math problem is an illusion created by people who fixate on numbers instead of how the game actually plays at the table.
Want to know more about the history of D&D, especially how to play older editions of the game? Check out Crazy Monkey's "Tour through the editions":
http://community.wizards.com/crazymonkey/go/forum/view/133793/225799/Asylum_Play-by-Post
The current edition is BECMI, the most popular form of Basic D&D and the adventure is the classic Red Box quest to kill Bargle the evil magic user. Check it out, learn about the games roots, and enjoy the story as it unfolds.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 17, 2013 - 10:38AM
#18
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Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2008
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The math problem is an illusion created by people who fixate on numbers instead of how the game actually plays at the table.
QFT
OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player.
3E challenged the character, not the player.
Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM.
That's why I love 4E.
"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."
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3 months ago ::
Mar 17, 2013 - 10:47AM
#19
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Quantum Field Theory ?
;P
Anyway, the math problem is not an illusion. It's importance however table / DM dependent.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 17, 2013 - 11:20AM
#20
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Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2008
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It's importance however table / DM dependent.
No, it's always insignificant unless you choose to specifically make it significant, which no one wants to do. Which makes it illusory.
OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player.
3E challenged the character, not the player.
Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM.
That's why I love 4E.
"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."
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