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Mar 14, 2013 -- 11:38PM, Zardnaar wrote:

The only thing is that the game has to be recognisable as AD&D and you have to assume AD&D fans would actually buy it so adding lser guns and spaceships is probably not a good idea.

The problem is that these are matters of opinion and everyone's will be different, making it impossible to reach a definitive solution. This is like giving someone 1, 4, √(-1) and n^x and telling them to add operators to construct an equation that solves to chartreuse.

Mar 14, 2013 -- 11:38PM, Zardnaar wrote:

Still can't be to massive though as the game has to at least resemble AD&D so do not turn it into 3rd or 4th ed.

y'know, it's funny... a little while ago these three guys, John, Monte and Skip, tried out this exact same exercise; to refine and update AD&D 2nd Edition to bring it into the modern era for a new generation of gamers. 

When they were done, they called it Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition.

First post!

OK, so it's been a while, so major changes are sticking out in my mind more than minor ones.

Major Changes:

Kill THAC0. Replace with what has become the d20 norm.

Attacker always rolls, and saves become defenses. Lose AC, that's now part of Reflex defense, and Armor gives DR, minor Reflex and/or Fort bonuses, or both, depending on type of armor. Obviously the exact numbers would need iteration to get right.

Effects which auto hit, don't. They work like area of effect stuff now, except that on a miss they do a lesser version/lesser related effect, rather than half damage. (so, if it turns you to stone on a hit, it halves your speed and gives you an attack penalty on a miss).

Rework the Fighter's whole "get followers and stuff" thing to be a bit more like SW:SE PrCs that get followers, mixed with bonuses fighters can give to followers and allies. Basically, as they level fighters before leaders in ways that matter even if you never want to stop just crawling through dungeons all the time.

Rework various "secondary" classes to be a bit more...independent in design philosophy, less "like a fighter, but..." and "take levels of druid, then..."

add in 4e themes and pretend no one ever thought of 3rd's PrCs. Themes can't be used alongside dualclassing. Play around to see if the two can be vaguely balanced, go from there. scrap the last part if they can't be.

This sounds like a fun game.

I suppose I have the benefit of hindsight, but I really do see 3E as a logical extension of AD&D. I don't consider the THAC0 change to be a major change, any more than Non-Armor Defenses in 4E are a major change from saving throws in 3E. I suppose the easiest way to format this is, how I would have altered 3E to make it more suitable of a successor to 2E:

1. Keep ability scores limited, with playable races capped at 20, and scary things up to 25. Just giving some races a +1 or +2 (and -1 or -2) is enough to reinforce racial tropes, so I would still leave out the weird (pre-modifier) ability score minimums and maximums that races used to have.
2. Reduce the scope of ability modifiers. Accuracy bonuses (to hit, save DCs) should range from -2 to +2. Leave damage at the existing 3E modifier (-5 to +5), and extend it to most spells. Leave ability score checks (d20 + ability score against DC from 10 to 40) as the major mechanic for determining success on most non-combat tasks.
3. Remove extra spells for high ability scores, since both save DCs and spell damage now scale with your casting stat. Make spell save DCs depend only on your casting modifier (+half level, as with other class-based save DCs), rather than scaling with spell level; the wizard has limited spells per day, but her level 1 spells are already weaker than her level 5 spells and do not need to be weakened any further by giving them a sub-par save DC.
4. Nix feats. Leave the combat-maneuver feats as a type of advanced weapon proficiency that is only available to the fighter.
5. Make skills optional, and go back to the 2E-style boolean training. Sorry, you don't get better at blacksmithing by going out on a dungeon delve; you're trained in it, so your benefit is that you are allowed to make checks to craft and repair arms and armor.
6. Remove the wealth-by-level guidelines. Leave the CR system in place only as a rough guideline to aid the DM, with the understanding that it's on the DM to watch for how magic items may impact PC power-level.
7. Retain the basic concept of dual-classing from 2E, but remove the racial and ability-score requirements. Unify the experience charts between classes, but track experience separately for each class, and only take the greatest bonus from each class. If you're a level 7 fighter, then taking one level in wizard should only cost 1000 experience, but it doesn't improve your BAB or HP or saves, and it does not make your next level of fighter any more expensive. (You can simulate multi-classing by alternating level-ups evenly between different classes; adjust the experience chart as necessary so that a character with n different classes is never more than n levels behind a single-class character).

Mar 15, 2013 -- 12:32AM, kadim wrote:

Mar 15, 2013 -- 12:27AM, Zardnaar wrote:

It is AD&D so no presitge classes or 3rd ed style MC. As I said its has to resemble AD&D and that system has its own multiclassing rules- one can overhaul them though of course. Let humans MC, pick any 2-3 classes you want etc.

Stop right there. Concurrent multiclassing is indeed a major part of 2e, but the 3e multiclassing system did resonate as the next step for mutlis for me in many ways. The only reason I miss concurrent multis now is that they never really managed to make it work such that I got all the new stuff AND recreate the old stuff.

I would argue that 3e multiclassing certainly does resemble AD&D, especially on the initial release of 3e D&D.

 Stick it in the major changes column then if you like. But then somoene may come along and make the arguement that 2nd we weapon prof = feats and then kits can resemble PrCs and then you basically have 3rd ed

Zard, I can't help but think that you're trying to lead us to an answer that you would find useful for some purpose you haven't really told us (though I have a guess). 

Anyway. The thing that I needed by the end of 2e was a trimming back of crap. There are a billion kits for everything and player's option books are cool but totally swamped the game in this crazy twinkery that I don't like. They could just reprint the 2e PHB, DMG and MM with cosmetic changes and I'd have been happy. Thac0 at the time didn't strike me as especially complex or weird. I wanted more player options in the form of multiclassing. I wanted dual classing to not suck. I wanted the alternate attributes in Skills & Powers to die in a fire, but I liked swappable class options. I took the step of letting single class characters to buy options from other classes (at a markup); I wanted a formal system for that. I wanted a more freeform magic system, but I still liked (and still like) spells. I wanted better rules for generating custom classes.

In retrospect, 3e did a lot of things that I didn't think were needed but I did like how it played. Nowadays I actually don't find thac0 any more difficult or cumbersome to play with than base attack. I liked the idea of 3e multiclassing but I never thought it quite captured multis as I understand them. Thing is I generally only ever played multiclass characters in 2e but in 3e I only ever play single class (and later, single purpose) characters.

The main thing I'd preserve is the ability to make characters that actually do more than one thing without jumping through hoops.