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Mar 12, 2013 -- 9:21PM, lawrencehoy wrote:

Mar 12, 2013 -- 8:46PM, Garthanos wrote:

Mar 12, 2013 -- 4:33PM, frothsof wrote:

 
Not really. Do you you realize that in OD&D the alignment system was just law, neutrality, and chaos? In other words, your "history" doesn't start with the actual beginnings of the game, just where you started.  

 Yup and did you know the very first action resolution was using rock paper scissors...  - Its not like d20s existed that far back. 

Is this a quote from somewhere? There would have been plenty of 6-sided dice available.

Dave Arneson interview mentioned it... and in a wikipedia entry on him. 

I think one thing many people forget about D&D is that the 'feel' or 'fluff' of the game is brought to the table by the DM and Players at the table. The mechanics can facilitate this, or get in the way of it, and different people will see things differently in regards to this. More rules will aid some, while less rules will inspire others. Me, personally, I find less rules outside of combat, while well codified combat rules is the perfect mix to allow the best mix of fluff and flare and feel.

Certain things are however Iconic, and add in general to the feel to those who were around for that iconic mix. The longer you've been playing, the more editions you've gone through and enjoyed, the more things you will be able to identify as iconic to D&D.

Several classic Monsters are Iconic....Dragons of course, Giants, Goblins, Orcs, Trolls, Ogres, etc.. of course, but these are also mythological and/or folklore creatures. There are also Iconic Monsters that are exclusive consistent D&D properties. Beholders, Mind Flayers, Githyankie, Drow, Displacer Beasts, Rust Monsters, Otyogh, these were creatures created specifically for D&D. Some were introduced later, some sooner...the Githyankie didn't come into the game until the 1e Fiend Folio was released, for instance.

Other things that are Iconic about D&D include the usse of 6 ability scores...that's been consistent throughout the editions, and always Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma...in some places, a 7th or 8th has been added (Comeliness or Honor) and in one case, the 6 were split into 2 sub-stats each (2e Skills and Powers), Hit Points has also always been how health is measured in D&D. Armor Class has always been a factor. Magic in D&D has pretty much been split into at least 2 types for most of its existence...Arcane and Divine. D&D has always included Classes, and Races as the basic structure of the game. Finally, D&D has always been a Level Based System with Experience Points used for advancement.

All these things are basically iconic, and thus, can be argued as essential parts of the Feel of D&D. Alignment has also been a part of the game since the beginning, as was said elsewhere, this was originally just Law, Neutrality, or Chaos (based on the Micheal Moorcock Elric books, as opposed to the classic Good vs Evil Dichotomy) then later added a 2nd axis, the Good, Neutral, Evil component, thus bringing about the classic 9 alignments...then in 4e, this was parred back down to a degree, into 5 alignments...many would say this is iconic and essential to keep, and this is a concept that makes a perfect example of something 'Iconic' that I personally would love to see moves off of PCs completely and only used as a guideline for NPCs/Monsters. 

You can adjust or 'improve' something always, but that doesn't mean it stays what it was before. I would say a Sundae is an improvement on a scoop of icecream, but then its no longer a scoop of icecream, now its a Sundae. To someone who doesn't like nuts or whip cream or cherries, its not even an improvement.

There are things that are distinctly part of the brand identity, the intellectual property profile of D&D. Some can possibly be changed, but every one of these "core assumptions" is going to cause an outcry from some member of the fanbase above and beyond other things. When you boil D&D down to its barest bone roots, those things should be maintained, or it should be called by some other name. Nothing wrong with there being other games out there, based upon the D&D franchise, but to remain D&D, they need the basics of D&D.

1. Class based system
2. Level Advancement measured in Experience Points
3. Hitpoints for health
4. at least the Core-4 Classes and Races
5. Armor Class as the primary defense (doesn't need to be the only one, but one of them)
6. at least 2 different types of Magic (Arcane and Divine, or Wizardly and Clerical, or whatever you want to label it)
7. The iconic Monsters of D&D
8. Use of Dice for conflict resolution, specifically the focus around the d20
9. A Dungeon Master
10. 6 Ability Scores that create the basis everything else on the character is hung onto.

These 10, in MY opinion, are the immutable Core assumptions that makes D&D what it is. Everything else can potentially be changed or added onto in order to try to adjust or improve the game, but these 10 things are what I would call inviolate, in order for it to be D&D. I'm not saying changing one or more of these things might or might not be an improvement over the whole, I'm just saying said improved version is no longer D&D, its an offshoot, inspired by D&D, but no longer able to truthfully hold the name.

To some people, Alignment is needed in the above list. To others, Vancian Casting, still others would argue the difference between a Thief class and a Rogue. Everyone has their hangups, everyone has their opinions...this is merely my 2cp worth. 

Mar 20, 2013 -- 12:30PM, Rastapopoulos wrote:

Zaardnar what happened to your forum picture?

I barely recognize you anymore! 

People's avatars revert back to the default hoodie man when they're on a moderator-enforced vacation. (Or possibly he just changed it, but that's usually what's up.)