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3 months ago ::
Mar 09, 2013 - 4:16AM
#51
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Date Joined:
Oct 27, 2012
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Personally do I think that D&D next will have a very difficult competitiveness situation with lots of potential customers already having invested lots of money and time in systems they are fond of. It do mean, that next will have to design a system there is clearly superior for people using a very large amount of different playstyles  I am not desperate for more roleplaying books. I only buy if they are a superior product for my particular needs and wishes I know it looks impressive, but it would have looked a lot more impressive if I had not given away a lot of the old 2e rulebooks and the old star wars rulebooks some years ago during one of the book shelf crisis situations. Kind of regret it because sometimes do I receive pbem invitations were i could use the old 2e rulebooks
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3 months ago ::
Mar 09, 2013 - 5:58AM
#52
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Date Joined:
Oct 27, 2012
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In certain types of campaigns can craft skills become very important
Some situations i have GM-ed
- Campaign begins with the players not knowing each other but all traveling on the same ship there suddenly suffers a ship wreck situation while the ship is traveling along a wilderness coastline
- Campagin begins with the players not knowing each other but being imprisoned in some kind of labour camp / mine / quarry in the midldle of nowhere
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3 months ago ::
Mar 09, 2013 - 2:40PM
#53
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I think we are seeing a major playstyle difference
Assume we are having some kind of logical puzzle
If you run it (4e) as a skill challenge do the players receive the answer from the GM when the players had enough succeeded skill rolls
Admittedly, skill challenges were problematic in design, but I find this to be the wrong way to execute skill challenges and puzzles, even within rules-as-written:
1. You end the entirety of the skill challenge if you either succeed on enough skill rolls or fail three times.
2. A logical puzzle in on itself is insufficient as a skill challenge; in fact, it's separated from both traps and skill challenges.
3. Puzzles in 4E by default do NOT roll for anything except to gain clues via Intelligence/skill checks. (page 81 of the DMG)
The logical puzzle could be an encounter in itself, or part of another encounter. It can even be part of a skill challenge or a trap.
As for skill challenges themselves, the main failure of the DMG is the absence of any suggestions on how to better construct skill challenges, giving the impression that skill challenge = bunch of skill checks. Later material (officially, 3rd party and fanbased) improved the design, for instance encouraging you to divide the skill challenge into various scenes, so a complexity 5 challenge could easily consist of 10 different scenes, each with 1-2 checks required (some of which might grant extra successes, see the later modules of LFR adventures), though I suppose the damage was already done.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 09, 2013 - 2:42PM
#54
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Date Joined:
Apr 15, 2001
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Personally do I think that D&D next will have a very difficult competitiveness situation with lots of potential customers already having invested lots of money and time in systems they are fond of. It do mean, that next will have to design a system there is clearly superior for people using a very large amount of different playstyles
I am not desperate for more roleplaying books. I only buy if they are a superior product for my particular needs and wishes
I know it looks impressive, but it would have looked a lot more impressive if I had not given away a lot of the old 2e rulebooks and the old star wars rulebooks some years ago during one of the book shelf crisis situations. Kind of regret it because sometimes do I receive pbem invitations were i could use the old 2e rulebooks
Can I come around to your place for a beer and reading session? I could quite happily sit at a desk and read though all of that until I was done.
Reducing a character to a list of dice rolls and modifiers is not role playing*
*pg 30, AD&D 2nd Ed DMG, 1989.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 09, 2013 - 5:28PM
#55
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2001
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Saga wasn't perfect mechanics wise bu it was probably the best d20 game WoTC managed ot produce or at least out of the ones I played. Never got around to running d20 Modern/future to compare them to.
I got a little exposure to d20 Modern via S&SS's Gamma World, and it was pretty aweful. What I saw of d20 Modern wasn't that great, either.
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? Join the Old Guard of 4e"You want The Tooth? You can't handle The Tooth!" - Dahlver-Nar. "If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly" - E. Gary Gygax
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3 months ago ::
Mar 09, 2013 - 5:34PM
#56
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It is getting bad when 2nd ed ,3rd ed and 4th ed fans are all recommending different games over D&DN lol.
IMO it's because they need to either make executive decisions on which direction they want to go, or create pre-4th and 4th edition variants of DDN. Trying to mix the two isn't making for a stronger product, they need to split it and let the market make the decision.
This current direction just isn't working, they can make a far more compelling game by creating versions of DDN that have dedicated support for both sides.
Despite the presence of the DDN playtest, I suspect that is the most realistic way to go. Have one version of D&D that embraces the legacy and history of the game and have a version that pushes the game forward and slays them cows. I think D&D needs to be both loyal to the history of the game and be at the cutting edge of RPGs but I am not sure the underlying system of DDN allows for this.
But I still it needs to be proved that DDN cannot include underlying 4th ed mechanics and styles.
This is why I think it is important to bring in underlying 4th ed elements and experiment with DDN playtest. It is pretty clear that the designers are not going to design in this space, so you cant wait for them to explore this!
As a side note I am pretty agnostic about the skill system of DDN - I like the 4th ed system is was very usable but DDN system has some charm despite having some silly skills.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 10, 2013 - 7:52AM
#57
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It is getting bad when 2nd ed ,3rd ed and 4th ed fans are all recommending different games over D&DN lol.
I am not looking for other Brand.
I'am disapointed that WOTC dont keep the best part of 4ed. 4ed is not a complete mistake.
I have always run homebrew setting. I dont care about legacy of old mechanics of Dnd.
But I do understand that it's crucial for some players.
Here again some hope from Next:
A kind of follow up with 3.5 to get the link back with old timers.
But a place for an open system: I will like to see a classic figther and an AEDU fighter both available in next.
My crazy wish is a game that 3.5ed and 4ed fan will like better than their current edition. For now DndN dont please 4ed fan and dont appeal 3.5 fan.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 10, 2013 - 8:08AM
#58
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Date Joined:
Oct 27, 2012
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Personally do I think that D&D next will have a very difficult competitiveness situation with lots of potential customers already having invested lots of money and time in systems they are fond of. It do mean, that next will have to design a system there is clearly superior for people using a very large amount of different playstyles
I am not desperate for more roleplaying books. I only buy if they are a superior product for my particular needs and wishes
I know it looks impressive, but it would have looked a lot more impressive if I had not given away a lot of the old 2e rulebooks and the old star wars rulebooks some years ago during one of the book shelf crisis situations. Kind of regret it because sometimes do I receive pbem invitations were i could use the old 2e rulebooks
Can I come around to your place for a beer and reading session? I could quite happily sit at a desk and read though all of that until I was done.
Well, we could probably arrange something at some point in the future. The next half year or one year is going to be busy (expecting to move for job reasons, sending in a family reunion application for my chinese wife,...) but we could probably arrange something at some time after that
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3 months ago ::
Mar 10, 2013 - 1:32PM
#59
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2001
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Despite the presence of the DDN playtest, I suspect that is the most realistic way to go. Have one version of D&D that embraces the legacy and history of the game and have a version that pushes the game forward and slays them cows. I think D&D needs to be both loyal to the history of the game and be at the cutting edge of RPGs but I am not sure the underlying system of DDN allows for this.
Ironically, that would be a "two pronged approach" like the one notoriously used in the 80s, so even trying to split into both retro and progressive would be retro. There's no escaping it. 
Seriously, though, it would have been a good idea. The progressive game needn't even retain the D&D name, precisely. It could allude to it, or use entirely different (or pioneer new) WotC IP...
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? Join the Old Guard of 4e"You want The Tooth? You can't handle The Tooth!" - Dahlver-Nar. "If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly" - E. Gary Gygax
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