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3 months ago ::
Mar 07, 2013 - 12:30PM
#1
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One thing that has really frustrated me about at-will cantrips (and I *like* at-will cantrips) is the fact that you are limited to a certain number of them, while you can learn *every other spell in the book.* Cantrips are explicitly supposed to be the simplest spells to learn...but I can only ever know so many?
What I think would work (not worrying about individual spell balance at the moment) is to simply allow casters to learn and prepare cantrips as 1st level spells, in addition to having access to the normal cantrips.
Something like this was essentially tried two packets ago with 0th level spells, but enough people misunderstood and overreacted to the implementation (too few and too little choice as to which at-wills), or the developers overreacted to the feedback, that it was nixed. Which is a real shame.
Does anyone else find world believability goes out the window when a wizard is limited to ever knowing a small number of the "simplest" spells?
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3 months ago ::
Mar 07, 2013 - 3:43PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Mar 11, 2008
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I see no problem with characters preparing Cantrips as a Spell (consider them Level 0 Spells). As they are generally inferior to other spells, it is only marginally advantageous.
I would also like it if you could gain more Cantrips as you increase in level, but I am sure others would disagree.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 07, 2013 - 6:49PM
#3
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i think they need to use the max level of spells known and max number of spells per level known which was part of the 1st and 2nd edition int table. they should make cantrips level 0 spells with little to no damage potential and more for minor effects. then if they want to make some of the damaging cantrips level 1 spells thats something i would support
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3 months ago ::
Mar 07, 2013 - 7:33PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2001
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One thing that has really frustrated me about at-will cantrips (and I *like* at-will cantrips) is the fact that you are limited to a certain number of them, while you can learn *every other spell in the book.* Cantrips are explicitly supposed to be the simplest spells to learn...but I can only ever know so many?
OK, that's an issue. It might be better to think of them as 'signature spells,' spells that aren't really any easier than other low-level spells, you've just put the effort into mastering them to the point you don't use slots.
What I think would work (not worrying about individual spell balance at the moment) is to simply allow casters to learn and prepare cantrips as 1st level spells, in addition to having access to the normal cantrips.
I actually see no balance problem with that.
Does anyone else find world believability goes out the window when a wizard is limited to ever knowing a small number of the "simplest" spells?
Believability goes out the window with Vancian casting, but, yes, the above rationale is a self-consistent one, and that implied by the current ruleset isn't.
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? Join the Old Guard of 4e"You want The Tooth? You can't handle The Tooth!" - Dahlver-Nar. "If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly" - E. Gary Gygax
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3 months ago ::
Mar 07, 2013 - 8:30PM
#5
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OK, that's an issue. It might be better to think of them as 'signature spells,' spells that aren't really any easier than other low-level spells, you've just put the effort into mastering them to the point you don't use slots.
Yeah, I had thought of that way of looking at it. The major problem with it is that you should be able to learn spells that replicate those effects. I could understand having a signature damaging spell, but things like light and read magic should be available to anyone. If they included 1st level versions of all of the effects that cantrips can create (a better illusion spell, some sort of mage armor type of ability, etc), then it would also work. Another way would just be to fold cantrips into 1st level spells and allow casters to select a few that they can use at-will.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 07, 2013 - 8:36PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jun 24, 2005
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Does anyone else find world believability goes out the window when a wizard is limited to ever knowing a small number of the "simplest" spells?
I find it harder to belive that you can cast cantrips atwill 24 hours a day but can only cast a 1st level spell that is in some cases a lesser spell than the cantrip once.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 07, 2013 - 9:11PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Sep 19, 2011
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Does anyone else find world believability goes out the window when a wizard is limited to ever knowing a small number of the "simplest" spells?
I find it harder to belive that you can cast cantrips atwill 24 hours a day but can only cast a 1st level spell that is in some cases a lesser spell than the cantrip once.
Then wouldnt that mean that they have mislabeled the spell instead? If a cantrip is out powering a 1st level spell then either the 1st level spell should be a cantrip or the cantrip a first level spell. This is a matter of early pre production issues not necessarily bad spell design.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 07, 2013 - 9:19PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2009
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Does anyone else find world believability goes out the window when a wizard is limited to ever knowing a small number of the "simplest" spells?
I find it harder to belive that you can cast cantrips atwill 24 hours a day but can only cast a 1st level spell that is in some cases a lesser spell than the cantrip once.
Examples please (or are you labeling all utility spells as inferior to a damaging cantrip)?
Besides which - I think there is a tendency to make some spells level 1 spells because they aren't generally useful enough to be worth spending a cantrip slot (which is inflexible). If a spell such as comprehend languages was a cantrip I suspect few players would take it; as a 1st level spell many will put it in their spell books to prepare when they expect to need it.
There is more to assigning the distinction between level 0 and level 1 spells than pure power.
That said - I absolutely support the idea of allowing a player to learn cantrips as level 1 spells and cast them as if they were level 1 spells. In fact, this is likely to become a new house rule.
If they wanted to add a level 0 daily spells per day column to the class as well, that would be even better. I.e. most cantrips must be prepared and cast like the level 1, etc spells - but the wizard can learn two (or more with the right feats/ race) cantrips which they can cast at-will. This then makes it easier for the 'anti-at-will' crowd to get what they want: They just take away the ability to cast a few of them at-will.
Carl
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3 months ago ::
Mar 07, 2013 - 10:38PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2009
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One thing that has really frustrated me about at-will cantrips (and I *like* at-will cantrips) is the fact that you are limited to a certain number of them, while you can learn *every other spell in the book.* Cantrips are explicitly supposed to be the simplest spells to learn...but I can only ever know so many?
OK, that's an issue. It might be better to think of them as 'signature spells,' spells that aren't really any easier than other low-level spells, you've just put the effort into mastering them to the point you don't use slots.
I like the term signature spells better than cantrips, especially for the damage spells that are considered cantrips in the latest playtest packets.
I think cantrips should be low power spells, that can be cast "at-will" but have little overall effect.
What I think would work (not worrying about individual spell balance at the moment) is to simply allow casters to learn and prepare cantrips as 1st level spells, in addition to having access to the normal cantrips.
I actually see no balance problem with that.
Nor do I.
Does anyone else find world believability goes out the window when a wizard is limited to ever knowing a small number of the "simplest" spells?
Believability goes out the window with Vancian casting, but, yes, the above rationale is a self-consistent one, and that implied by the current ruleset isn't.
I find Vancian believable for the D&D fantasy world. I realize others don't; but, just because some people don't feel that way, that doesn't make it unilaterally true.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 07, 2013 - 10:45PM
#10
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Personally, I think wizards should gradually over time have certain spells of progressibly higher level become "signature spells". Maybe spells start daily, and then become, encounter, and finally become at will. I'm imagining a spell or two around 4th or 5th level become at-will by the time the wizard reaches 20th level, with maybe a 7th level spell being encounter.
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging.
Roll dice, not cars.
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