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3 months ago ::
Mar 07, 2013 - 11:13AM
#41
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Expressing disapproval is feedback
...whatever
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3 months ago ::
Mar 07, 2013 - 11:16AM
#42
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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Expressing disapproval is feedback
Useless feedback. When your disapproval is based on fiction and is utterly non-constructive, there is nothing present that will help them improve the game. You might as well be whispering in the wind.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 07, 2013 - 11:19AM
#43
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I'd call many people's faith and enthusiasm far more fictional than anything I say.
...whatever
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3 months ago ::
Mar 07, 2013 - 11:19AM
#44
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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I'd call many people's faith and enthusiasm far more fictions than anything I say.
Yes, we know 
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3 months ago ::
Mar 07, 2013 - 11:37AM
#45
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Date Joined:
Sep 25, 2009
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Trying to give feedback so 5E doesn't turn out as crap is a "crusade"?
That statement runs in direct opposition to your earlier statement. You said earlier you don't have faith in 5e or the design team. You can't believe that your feedback will aid 5e in not turning out as crap and have a lack of faith in 5e and the design team. They are mutually exclusive beliefs. Either the design team is listening and changing things based on our feedback, in which case they are worthy of having our faith in their ability, or they are not, in which case there is no point in complaining and/or giving feedback.
Which is it? Do you have faith in them to listen to your feedback and change things or not?
Actually, not "hav[ing] faith in the design team" is not at all inconsistent with providing feedback in hopes they will listen, unless you arbitrarily equate not having faith in the team generally with "no faith they will listen to his feedback" specifically. There is nothing inconsistent in simultaneously believing that the devs will not get things right on their own and have not thus far listened to his side of the argument, and simultaneously believing that it is worthwhile continuing to voice his side in the hopes that they will. It is only by misconstruing what he said that they become inconsistent. In other words, by constructing a strawman to defeat.
As to an example of an argument that is premised on faith in the design team: take a look at the post immediately preceding it (#24). "He is just stating the obvious: everyone playing in the same group ("game") will mostly likely need to use the same healing options. It would likely be unbalanced otherwise. "
If you have no faith that the designers will grasp the obvious and do what needs to be done to make the game work, that argument fails completely. I for one have at least enough faith in the design team to grant that they wouldn't try to implement wildly different healing options at the same table, but the fact remains that the argument requires a premise that the designers won't do something clearly stupid. This premise is apparently not universally acccepted.
A negative poster is not an excuse to make negative posts destroying straw men.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 07, 2013 - 11:40AM
#46
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2008
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Expressing disapproval is feedback
This is correct. Expressing disapproval is certainly feedback, and furthermore, it is helpful feedback. The designers need to know when we don't like things just as much as when we do like things. Otherwise they won't be able to continue to improve the game.
But you didn't simply express disapproval. You said, and I am directly quoting you here, not paraphrasing, or saying what I think you meant:
"a lot of us don't have faith In 5E or the design team behind it"
This isn't feedback, and it isn't even simple disapproval. It is saying that you don't even believe the design team is capable of making a game that you will like. So don't act surprised when people call you out on a statement like that. It is rude and unhelpful.
I'm sure you know that everyone doesn't have the same opinions on things (what a dull world that would be!). The fact that I like the playtest material isn't because of "faith". It is because I honestly like what I have seen. My enthusiasm isn't "fictitious", and it is insulting for you to claim that it is. This isn't a case of right or wrong. Someone who likes the playtest isn't right or wrong: they simply like it. At the same time, someone who dislikes it isn't right or wrong: they simply dislike it.
But both of those people should know that insulting the people who are making the game isn't a good way to make a point.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 07, 2013 - 11:44AM
#47
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2009
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Expressing disapproval is feedback
This is correct. Expressing disapproval is certainly feedback, and furthermore, it is helpful feedback. The designers need to know when we don't like things just as much as when we do like things. Otherwise they won't be able to continue to improve the game.
But you didn't simply express disapproval. You said, and I am directly quoting you here, not paraphrasing, or saying what I think you meant:
"a lot of us don't have faith In 5E or the design team behind it"
This isn't feedback, and it isn't even simple disapproval. It is saying that you don't even believe the design team is capable of making a game that you will like. So don't act surprised when people call you out on a statement like that. It is rude and unhelpful.
I'm sure you know that everyone doesn't have the same opinions on things (what a dull world that would be!). The fact that I like the playtest material isn't because of "faith". It is because I honestly like what I have seen. My enthusiasm isn't "fictitious", and it is insulting for you to claim that it is. This isn't a case of right or wrong. Someone who likes the playtest isn't right or wrong: they simply like it. At the same time, someone who dislikes it isn't right or wrong: they simply dislike it.
But both of those people should know that insulting the people who are making the game isn't a good way to make a point.
+1
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3 months ago ::
Mar 07, 2013 - 11:46AM
#48
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Date Joined:
Apr 29, 2010
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But both of those people should know that insulting the people who are making the game isn't a good way to make a point.
Yep. I really hope that any devs reading these forums (if they do such a thing) make judicious use of the block function.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 07, 2013 - 11:54AM
#49
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Just scanned through that debate. Max is missing the obvious: You don't need to trust in a system to participate in it. Especially when your only other alternative is not participate. I occasionally get hired to work on games that I have little faith of actually improving. It's a little disheartening to see a company pay for consultation they won't use, but sometimes that's the job. Likewise, many people continue to follow this playtest out of a combination of morbid curiousity and misguided sense of loyalty to the Dungeons and Dragons brand. (Myself included  ) After a year of playtesting, there are still countless reasons to be discouraged. Telling people that are expressing their frustration that they're not helping isn't going to make them any more optimistic about the outcome. Regardless, in the near future Mearles will likely reverse course again because of all the negative feedback, but that shouldn't make us think that his ideas are getting any better. The optimists will say, "See, he listens and understands!" and the pessimists will cry, "This only happened because we complained loud enough, but if the designers understood then it never would have been an issue in the first place!"
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3 months ago ::
Mar 07, 2013 - 12:16PM
#50
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One reason why people like thecasualoblivion don't trust the current design team (and why I don't dismiss some of his more extreme attitudes out of hand, because I usually agree with him, although I do want this thing to work) is that this very design team proved (towards the end of 4th edition) that they did not understand the mechanics they were attempting to modify (the cleric erratta being the most convenient example). When they present arguements that seem to show the same level of ignorance to the very rules they are currently writing, these will be seized on and run with by those who already hold them in, if not contempt, at least regard with suspicion.
That doesn't mean that we'll stop trying to explain what we think they should be doing.
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