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3 months ago ::
Mar 03, 2013 - 4:04PM
#1
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I run a 4e game from time to time. Since my games got to round 5th level I find it hard to put my party through an encounter of their own level without severly hurting them. I am talking multiple players lying on the floor making death saving throws here. After one round of combat a monk in my game was on worse than half hitpoints, that is from coming in fresh. I put the party of six up against 6 gnolls of their own level and it was touch and go. At one point I thought I was going to end up with a death (which i did not want, it is the first fight in the first game of a block and was not supposed to be deadly, just a shakedown really). What is going wrong?
I got some good rolls, but those gnolls seem to hit very hard. Is it normal to have such a drubbing in an encounter of the same level as the party, against enemys the same level as the party? I find my encounters get longer, and more deadly as the game gets higher level. What is going on? Am I doing something wrong?
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3 months ago ::
Mar 03, 2013 - 4:09PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Feb 20, 2013
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It would help to know your party's composition. If a party doesn't have all four roles covered, they can find encounters harder than they should be.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 03, 2013 - 4:12PM
#3
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I wouldn't say it's 'normal', but one of the things 4e emphasizes is teamwork. If the party isn't working together, they're going to have a much harder time of it.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 03, 2013 - 5:19PM
#4
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We currently have:
2 Runepriests
1 Monk
1 Druid
1 Rogue
1 Fighter
Should work well. Problems seem to be:
1. Artillery monsters get ignored, then everyone starts looking hurt and surprised by how much damage they can output...and carries on ignoring them. (this has happened before and had similarly disastrous consequences).
2. The Rogue doesn't want to do damage and attack. One round she wanted to just stand behind a pillar and do nothing. *facepalm*, but hey that is what she wanted to do apparantly.
3. I was rolling high for the first few rounds so all the monsters hit.
4. The monk wasn't using flurry of blows for the first 3 rounds because he didn't know how it worked (and I forgot to notice). But to balance that when the Gnolls got bloodied I would sometimes forget to do their extra damage.
Once the teamwork started to coalesce, and the party were ganging up on one creature and taking it down they pulled through. But I was worried, and it was the first 4e game for one player and I am worried I will put him off if he starts to see 4e as a meat grinder for the PCs.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 03, 2013 - 5:54PM
#5
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1. Your party seems to lack a lot of ranged options, so you should keep artillery monsters to a minimum.
2. That's a rather large problem, yes. D&D kind of expects people to do something. The rogue should be flanking with the fighter constantly.
3. This is where 'fudging' comes in. If your monsters are rolling too hot, and it's making things less fun, start having them miss. You could also have them start making poor tactical choices from overconfidence, because of how easily they're winning.
4. That will come with experience.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 03, 2013 - 7:37PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2004
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Every group will be different. So if your party is having a hard time with creatures their own level you have a few options:
1) Put on the mittens. Maybe the group is more story interested and doesn't want / need challenging combats to have fun at table. Downlevel the encounters to the point that you find appropriate.
2) Talk to your players and get some optimization going. For contrast my Sorcerer by himself can often take out, or nearly take out, a room of at-level enemies on his own(His nova is something like 8d6+1d10+108 assuming everything hits. Or 8*3.5 + 5.5 + 108 ~ 141.5 hp at a level were standard monster HP is 136) If two of your strikers target the same thing on the first turn it should die unless it is a solo or elite. If two of your strikers Action Point, an elite should die. If that seems way out of the realm of realistic for your party, it might be time to do a little number crunching, or going back to option 1.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 04, 2013 - 2:04AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Oct 17, 2007
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Your party composition seems fine on paper. Some ideas:
1. Artillery monsters: it may be ok to ignore them for a while, on condition that the party tries to focus fire other targets. Killing enemies fast is the best way to reduce damage output overall.
2. Rogue. Why is that? Is it a roleplay choice or is it because she is unsure about the rules and how to play the character effectively? In the former case, just take it into account for balancing the encounter; in the latter case perhaps talk to her and maybe do a little 'training', or have a more experienced player use a rogue to show her the ropes of the class.
3. Consider using average damage for monsters. This takes away spikes which may turn the fight for worse. Also be careful with Brute monsters, as they can really hurt: don't use many of those together.
4. Monk: doesn't seem like a big problem. Just needs practice.
Also note that damage for monsters have been increased in MM3 and Monsters Vault, to align it to the latest updates. Even if it may make combat tougher I'd still recommend using those new values, otherwise combat may drag too long and lose excitement.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 04, 2013 - 2:39PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Sep 21, 2006
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Gnolls in particular are unusually hard-hitting for thier level, particularly if they're allowed to play to their strengths.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 04, 2013 - 4:07PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2001
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I run a 4e game from time to time. Since my games got to round 5th level I find it hard to put my party through an encounter of their own level without severly hurting them. I am talking multiple players lying on the floor making death saving throws here. After one round of combat a monk in my game was on worse than half hitpoints, that is from coming in fresh.
A PC bloodied in one round (or, by a lurker, in one attack) isn't beyond the pale. It shouldn't be a common occurance, though, and the party should be able to deal with it with some healing.
I put the party of six up against 6 gnolls of their own level and it was touch and go. At one point I thought I was going to end up with a death (which i did not want, it is the first fight in the first game of a block and was not supposed to be deadly, just a shakedown really). What is going wrong?
Gnolls can be pretty nasty. There are a number of monsters like that which get pile-on damage on bloodied characters and that can bring a PC down quickly or decimate a party that isn't doing a good job mitigating damage. You might consider using more of a mix of monsters, with a few less-brutal ones, especially for a 'shakedown' combat.
I got some good rolls, but those gnolls seem to hit very hard. Is it normal to have such a drubbing in an encounter of the same level as the party, against enemys the same level as the party? I find my encounters get longer, and more deadly as the game gets higher level. What is going on? Am I doing something wrong?
That's not typical, no. Usually PC healing gets them through a few good rolls or concentrated damage by the opposition and the tide turns. That depends on some teamwork, though, I suppose.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 05, 2013 - 3:23AM
#10
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Is this a party that started at 1 and leveled to 5 or started at 5? I had to coach the players a lot in the early going while they got familiarized with the system and their characters, if its the case that they're still learning then it isn't so bad. In early encounters my party had a bad tendency to let the enemy bottleneck them and have artillery blasting them but they've improved and have a better tactical sense now. Hopefully that is the case for your group and they just need to be familiar with their characters. I know the warlock in our group needed to be reminded about curse damage early on, and the rogue was afraid to mix it up in melee after getting clobbered the first couple encounters, but now they've got the hang of things. If they've been playing this way all the way through to level 5 I'm surprised that you didn't have these doubts a lot sooner, because they are not doing their jobs and that makes it a lot harder for them to have success when they are as unaware of their class mechanics as it sounds from your post.
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