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Dungeons & Dra.. Playtest Packet Di.. D&D Next: Level Up Classes [The Barbarian Test]
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3 months ago  ::  Mar 02, 2013 - 11:41AM #1
Grindeland
Date Joined: Feb 5, 2013
Posts: 60
The Barbarians as they have currently been released are pretty awesome. I am slightly concerned that the game developers might tone down the Barbarians due to their stating that it has become obvious that they are currently better than Fighters. I hope this does not happen, with a few tweaks I think the Barbarian class could become the litmus test for every other class (i.e. Is this other class as cool as Barbarian... No? Then improve it).

I see what is nearly a perfect template for Class Features at each level in the Barbarian Class. A class feature, feat, maneuver, or spell should be gained by every class at every level. Look at the Barbarian chart... perfect up to level 13 in this regard (Except that in character creation it has feats no longer gained after level 9...lame, feats should be gained at 1st and every 3rd level up through level 18).

Below is how I think Barbarians should be laid out for class features:
1   Combat Expertise, Iron Hide, Rage, Reckless Attack
2   Fast Movement
3   -
4   Feral Instinct
5   Fearless Rage
6   -
7   Feral Presence (See below)
8   Relentless Rage
9   -
10 Feral Reflexes
11 Regenerative Rage
12 -
13 Channel Fury
14 Feral Senses
15 -
16 Incite Rage
17 Unchecked Fury
18 -
19 Primal Might
20 Endless Rage

Level 5: Feral Presence
The wild nature in you is cleary visible and imposing to your enemies.
  Benefit: If not already possessed, you gain the intimidate skill. Second, you have advantage on checks to intimidate. Additionally, while raging, enemies that are within your reach and are of 3 Hit Dice less or lower must make a Fear Save or become frightened
- They must roll a d20 and add their Wisdom Modifier against a DC 10 + (Barbarians Strength or Constitution Modifier, whichever is higher). This roll needs to be made only once per encounter. If the enemy rolls a natural 1 on this check they are terrified and treated as stunned for a number of rounds equal to the Barbarians Strength or Constitution Modifier, whichever is higher.

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So, Fighters need to be improved. They pale in comparison to Barbarians right now. I don't know if the additional features that I have listed are enough to make Fighters as attractive as Barbarians... but I think it's an improvement.

Fighter's Class Features
1   Combat Expertise, Fighting Style, Maneuver, Parry
2   Maneuver
3   -
4   Maneuver
5   Armored Reflexes (Medium)
6   -
7   Armored Step (Medium)
8   Maneuver
9   -
10 Focused Attack
11 Combat Surge 1/day
12 -
13 Maneuver
14 Combat Surge 2/day
15 -
16 Armored Reflexes (Heavy)
17 Combat Surge 3/day
18 -
19 Armored Step (Heavy)
20 Combat Surge 4/day

Level 5: Armored Reflexes (Medium)
You are not hindered in the normal manner by the armor you wear.
Benefit: 
The Max Dex Bonus to AC while wearing medium armor increases by 2.

Level 7: Armored Step (Medium)
You are not hindered in the normal manner by the armor you wear.
Benefit: 
Ignore the stealth disadvantage normally imposed by Scale Mail and Dragon Scale.

Level 10: Focused Attack
You can sacrifice damage for a sure hit.
Benefit: Once per encounter you can spend a martial damage die to gain advantage on your next attack. Additionally, any Martial Damage Die you spend beyond the first is rolled with the total being added to your attack score as determined by the higher of your two d20 rolls.

Level 16: Armored Reflexes (Heavy)
Benefit: You can add, Max 2, your Dex Bonus to AC while wearing heavy armor.

Level 19: Armored Step (Heavy)
Benefit: 
Ignore the stealth disadvantage normally imposed by Heavy Armor. Additionally, your speed is not penalized for wearing heavy armor.

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I believe that, in general, all of the classes should follow a similar layout in regards to... Alright, I get a feat every 3rd level but I should be getting something cool, something worth Leveling Up for each level.

Shouldn't Clerics, at least "Priest" Clerics, have the heal skill?

Death and Dying: An optional mechanism to death saving throws could be that if you roll a natural 1... you die. Additionally, you have the option to not make a death saving throw on your turn but instead take 3 damage.

I'm excited to see Druids become available for the general playtest population (As we heard that they are currently testing them out internally and with a select few external groups).

List of Classes that should make the final version:
Barbarian
Cleric
Druid
Fighter
Monk
Rogue
Wizard
> Bard (I know it's a duh...)
> Paladin
> Ranger
> ~Warlock/Sorcerer (This Class, if included, should have subdivision based on the origin of their spellcasting power... Dragon, Demon, Devil, Planes, etc... the origin should manifest itself over the span of leveling up... similar to a mechanic that was in 3.5 for the dragon based class... The Dragon origin would end up manifesting as leathery wings, a tale, breath weapon, unarmed claw attack, etc... The Demon/Devil origin could manifest as horns, levitation, cold skin, a split tongue, increased charisma... The planes origin could manifest itself as feathered wings, a cone weapon x/day from hand(s), etc...

Ranger:
 In talking to a friend, we discussed Rangers from v3.5. I have always disliked Rangers in playing 3.5 because it felt like how good they were was far too dependent on the enemies being faced. If they weren't going up against a favored enemy they were kind of lame. The first few levels, half of what they got were feats that anyone else could get.
   It was a little sad to me because I always thought that the Ranger archetype character in stories was pretty cool. But in playing 3.5 if I had a desire to play that archetype of character I would just use the fighter class to make them. It seems like favored enemy should not be a core mechanic of the Ranger. Something closer to the shape they took on in 4th edition would be better. Have them dominate in their environment, whether it be woodlands, swamps, deserts, etc. Rangers have the potential to be awesome if done well.

Well I think that's enough for now.
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3 months ago  ::  Mar 02, 2013 - 1:07PM #2
Grindeland
Date Joined: Feb 5, 2013
Posts: 60
I would like to hear other peoples thoughts. I'm curious if most people got a glance at the Barbarian Class after seeing the other classes and thought, "Holy Crap, Barbarians look fun!"... When reading through the class features I had images of Wolverine, Vikings, and the like filling my head. This class, to me, has a clear and potent identity where I feel some of the other classes could use a little spark.

Other points of view? 
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3 months ago  ::  Mar 02, 2013 - 2:18PM #3
Lord_Malkov
Date Joined: Feb 15, 2013
Posts: 519
There have been a few concepts for the ranger that have helped to make them more versatile.  

One variant rule was that they could "expose weakness" a certain number of times per day, which gave them the same sort of bonuses as favored enemy.

There can always be a "quarry" ability for marking targets in that same manner.

The favored environment thing can also be generalized.  Tracking and survival bonuses etc.

 I think the big division will be animal companion or no animal companion.  Personally I think that it should stay, but could be calmed down from a combat perspective and used more for exploration.  A hawk, a horse or a dog could be a wonderful hunting companion.  The hawk could help scout things out... the dog's senses would help keep the ranger alert, and the horse would help him travel...  

 
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3 months ago  ::  Mar 02, 2013 - 2:51PM #4
Grindeland
Date Joined: Feb 5, 2013
Posts: 60

Mar 2, 2013 -- 2:18PM, Lord_Malkov wrote:


One variant rule was that they could "expose weakness" a certain number of times per day, which gave them the same sort of bonuses as favored enemy.



    I like the "expose weakness" more than favored enemy.

Mar 2, 2013 -- 2:18PM, Lord_Malkov wrote:


The favored environment thing can also be generalized.  Tracking and survival bonuses etc.



    They should obviously get the Tracking and survival bonuses

Mar 2, 2013 -- 2:18PM, Lord_Malkov wrote:


 I think the big division will be animal companion or no animal companion.  Personally I think that it should stay, but could be calmed down from a combat perspective and used more for exploration.  A hawk, a horse or a dog could be a wonderful hunting companion.  The hawk could help scout things out... the dog's senses would help keep the ranger alert, and the horse would help him travel...



    This is an interesting point. I don't see the animal companion as a necessary trait but in either case I do agree that if it is in it should be calmed for combat... actually, thinking about it further I do like them having the animal companion and having it function more along the lines of the familiar for sorcerer's in v3.5 (Especially if Sorcerer's in their 3.5 form were left out).
Like you said... with some additions
> Hawk: Help Scout + Advantage on Survival & Spot
> Dog: Help Track + Advantage on Track & Listen
> Horse: Help Travel + Advantage on Ride & Drive
> Monkey: Help Steal + Advantage on Sleight of Hand & Climb
> Snake: Help Poison + Advantage on Sneak & Intimidate
> Rat: Help Escape + Advantage on Escape Artist & Use Rope
> Weasel: Help Gather Info + Advantage on Search & Gather Rumors
> Raven: Help Communicate + Advantage on Handle Animal + Bluff

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3 months ago  ::  Mar 02, 2013 - 3:12PM #5
Lord_Malkov
Date Joined: Feb 15, 2013
Posts: 519
Yeah, the combat end of things is really hard to balance out, and if you have a powerful companion, you have to have a less powerful ranger.
I'm not sure it needs to be a required component of the class either, it could easily be an option.  Its an option in PF right now, but not really.  The animal companions in PF are pretty boss... the other options are terrible (for druids and rangers) which means that if you don't want a companion (urban ranger etc.) you are just gimped.

I wouldn't mind seeing a combat heavy companion either, but there should be drawbacks for the ranger if he goes this route.  Alternatively you could just have a second "beastmaster" class that focuses on this aspect.

I don't want Ranger to just be a fighter variant though, and I think that the animal companion helps to characterize the class. 
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3 months ago  ::  Mar 03, 2013 - 5:23AM #6
Grindeland
Date Joined: Feb 5, 2013
Posts: 60
Another item that hasn't been addressed in the Playtest packet yet is Armor Class bonuses and negatives based on size category.

People I am playing with have had a lot of gripes about how few things provoke opportunity attacks (e.g. moving through, casting a spell in, and making a ranged attack in "threatened" squares) . A major one for one of the players was that standing up in a threatened square doesn't provoke opportunity attacks.
> I'm curious what other peoples opinions are on this matter... (personally I'm indifferent to this topic and will except the rules in either case)

We, however, have all agreed that we do prefer the "Breaking up a Move" addition (effectively giving everyone "Spring Attack" from 3.5).

Also, huge fans of the advantage/disadvantage (better/worse of 2d20 rolls) addition. Heard that it's been in other games but this is my first time seeing it.
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3 months ago  ::  Mar 03, 2013 - 6:31AM #7
Uchawi
Date Joined: Jun 22, 2010
Posts: 1,753
I would prefer a bonus to AC for the fighter and get rid of parry for damage mitigation, as it is simpler overall. But I would make the bonus to AC based on the fighters strength modifier. As to the complexity of AOO, the baseline rules should be simple and then WOTC can add on any triggers they want via a module or optional rule to make it more complex, e.g. standing up from prone.
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3 months ago  ::  Mar 03, 2013 - 6:55AM #8
Grindeland
Date Joined: Feb 5, 2013
Posts: 60
So, like the Barbarian can use CON Mod, and the Monk can use WIS Mod for AC Bonus you would like to see the fighter use their STR Mod. Interesting, I will have to think about that a bit more before I have a solid opinion.

I do agree that, in general, it makes more sense to me to see the fighter have a higher AC as opposed to Damage Mitigation...but essentially they give the same result... I'll have to see how parry works at higher levels. If anyone is going to have parry, it should be a fighter. Also, it seems to me that often Fighters will have higher AC in general do to the rule setup at present. Many barbarians are probably going to forgo wearing armor since they get to add their CON Mod if doing so and Fighters obviously have immediate access to the most options for Armor with the greatest benefit.

I have no problem with AOO being kept simple. I think the group I game with is just so used to v3.5 that almost every deviation from it is seen by them as blasphemy.

Interesting thing with Wizards (If I didn't overlook anything)... they can wear armor, if proficient with it, and cast at no penalty the way the rules are currently setup. Not sure I like that...

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3 months ago  ::  Mar 03, 2013 - 1:20PM #9
Uchawi
Date Joined: Jun 22, 2010
Posts: 1,753
Then don't look at a dwarven wizard because they get the armor proficiency for free, but that is one of the reasons I feel martial characters should get an additional bonus from a stat for AC, since caster get their ability bonus to apply to saves for difficulty checks.
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3 months ago  ::  Mar 03, 2013 - 6:54PM #10
ZenMonkey47
Date Joined: Sep 14, 2008
Posts: 56
Monks and barbarians who pick up the mage armor cantrip via arcane dabbler feat can push their armor class to heights that fighters can only dream of.
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Dungeons & Dra.. Playtest Packet Di.. D&D Next: Level Up Classes [The Barbarian Test]
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