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3 months ago ::
Mar 01, 2013 - 4:52PM
#31
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Date Joined:
Nov 18, 2004
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It is probably boredom and frustration. There is not really that many packet left to playtest and a lot of classes to cover. Can't really take it out on WoTC so we take it out on each other would be my guess.
I disagree. I think it's a couple of things combined.
-We have two irreconcilable groups here, 4th edition fans and non-4th edition fans. Both groups want 5th edition to be an evolution of the mechanics of their favorite edition.
-We have seen in the past that message boards can affect game design, and that if you have enough people complaining about something it can be changed.
-Some small subset are really mad that 4th edition was stopped faster than previous editions.
It's the edition wars. It's a polite form of the edition wars, but it's still the edition wars. When you read the arguements, that's what it's really about. When you go into the fighter threads, what's the fight about? Is it really about the fighter, or is it about the 4th edition fighter vs the other editions?
Similiarly, what's the Dragonborn fight, or the Magic Systems fights really about? The Alignment system fights? The healing fights?
It's all about edition wars.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 01, 2013 - 5:02PM
#32
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2009
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It is probably boredom and frustration. There is not really that many packet left to playtest and a lot of classes to cover. Can't really take it out on WoTC so we take it out on each other would be my guess.
I disagree. I think it's a couple of things combined.
-We have two irreconcilable groups here, 4th edition fans and non-4th edition fans. Both groups want 5th edition to be an evolution of the mechanics of their favorite edition.
-We have seen in the past that message boards can affect game design, and that if you have enough people complaining about something it can be changed.
-Some small subset are really mad that 4th edition was stopped faster than previous editions.
It's the edition wars. It's a polite form of the edition wars, but it's still the edition wars. When you read the arguements, that's what it's really about. When you go into the fighter threads, what's the fight about? Is it really about the fighter, or is it about the 4th edition fighter vs the other editions?
Similiarly, what's the Dragonborn fight, or the Magic Systems fights really about? The Alignment system fights? The healing fights?
It's all about edition wars.
being a prime contributer in the fighter threads:
it is in no way an edition fight it is a design paradigm fight. People disagreeing about what the design paradigm for fighters and the game as a whole should be. The fighter is the focal point but the implications are about how the system as a whole are being designed.
Please don't bring that fight here guys leave it in the threads it already exists in.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 01, 2013 - 5:05PM
#33
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Date Joined:
Sep 21, 2007
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Please don't bring that fight here guys leave it in the threads it already exists in.
Please don't bring ANY fights here. In a tread about "not fighting" that would pretty much mean we can't get anything right as a group and shouldn't be trusted 
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3 months ago ::
Mar 01, 2013 - 5:08PM
#34
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It is probably boredom and frustration. There is not really that many packet left to playtest and a lot of classes to cover. Can't really take it out on WoTC so we take it out on each other would be my guess.
I disagree. I think it's a couple of things combined.
-We have two irreconcilable groups here, 4th edition fans and non-4th edition fans. Both groups want 5th edition to be an evolution of the mechanics of their favorite edition.
-We have seen in the past that message boards can affect game design, and that if you have enough people complaining about something it can be changed.
-Some small subset are really mad that 4th edition was stopped faster than previous editions.
It's the edition wars. It's a polite form of the edition wars, but it's still the edition wars. When you read the arguements, that's what it's really about. When you go into the fighter threads, what's the fight about? Is it really about the fighter, or is it about the 4th edition fighter vs the other editions?
Similiarly, what's the Dragonborn fight, or the Magic Systems fights really about? The Alignment system fights? The healing fights?
It's all about edition wars.
Its a fight because they(WotC) are trying to shoehorn multiple mutually exclusive philosophies on what D&D should be into a single system.
...whatever
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3 months ago ::
Mar 01, 2013 - 6:08PM
#35
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it is also because they released an alpha verison of the game. there are alot of questions that should have been answered before packet 1 hit the testing circut. and when you give out 1/100th of a game people have no idea the structure of the game as a whole. they should have given atleast a year for development before player testing. they have in house groups they test with anyway. wotc allows all this to go on in the forums and just stops major trolling and language, so they are the cause of the issue and are just standing by closed mouthed. i play alot of wow, when there is an issue in a forum a blue post from a designer or blizzard employee is made and the issue is over. why dont wotc just post in reply to the thread this is how things will be for issue x and then say if a module will be made to alter it.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 01, 2013 - 6:10PM
#36
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Date Joined:
Feb 15, 2013
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You tend to see a lot of circular arguments.
Rarely, if ever, do you see discussions that take everyone's issues with a system /class/etc. to heart.
Often, those issues are presented with little to no explaination... they come from an emotional place and elicit an emotional reaction.
Other times, someone will raise an issue with a suggested solution, and people will just harp on the solution rather than deal with whether or not there actually is an issue.
This is going to continue forever and ever though, because the goals of each system are not well laid out.
If someone asks, "Why bounded accuracy?" you might respond with "It avoids the treadmill issues of the past and keeps low level monsters relevant". If they, in turn, respond with "What if I don't want low level monsters to be relevant? What if I liked the power scaling of previous editions?"..... then the thread will come to a screeching halt because that person is now just a backward thinking idiot. Comments will fly about how they can houserule it however they want and screw up balance and all sorts of inflamatory or dismissive things will be said.
But that example just shows that a reduced power scale is not a universal desire from D&D players.... which means that the first response, though it might mirror what the Devs say pretty closely, is not useful to the original poster who asked the question.
Poorly defined design goals and the pipe-dream of "universal appeal" make these discussions truly difficult. If you take the emotions out... if you take out the subjective unsupportable beliefs each person has concerning what D&D should be, and what its focus should be.... if you take those things out... there is no conversation.
Because there is no objective way to be "correct" or "incorrect" in any of these debates. This would be helped immensely if the Devs would talk about clear design goals for each system and make clear examples of where the design process is finished (or even just close). Are the classes close to completion? Spell lists? Are we looking at 10%? 80%? If I knew that the classes were only 35% finished, I would be far more forgiving. If I knew they were 95% finished, I would leave the forums and give up on DDN. Either way, threads get nicer.
They must have some idea. They have to make decisions in some coherent way right? Give us the design philosophy for the fighter class, give us the same conceptual rubric that you used to design it and we can grade it under the same set of premises.
Until that happens, the conversations here will be subjective, emotional, personal and heated.
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3 months ago ::
Mar 01, 2013 - 6:11PM
#37
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Date Joined:
Nov 18, 2004
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It is probably boredom and frustration. There is not really that many packet left to playtest and a lot of classes to cover. Can't really take it out on WoTC so we take it out on each other would be my guess.
I disagree. I think it's a couple of things combined.
-We have two irreconcilable groups here, 4th edition fans and non-4th edition fans. Both groups want 5th edition to be an evolution of the mechanics of their favorite edition.
-We have seen in the past that message boards can affect game design, and that if you have enough people complaining about something it can be changed.
-Some small subset are really mad that 4th edition was stopped faster than previous editions.
It's the edition wars. It's a polite form of the edition wars, but it's still the edition wars. When you read the arguements, that's what it's really about. When you go into the fighter threads, what's the fight about? Is it really about the fighter, or is it about the 4th edition fighter vs the other editions?
Similiarly, what's the Dragonborn fight, or the Magic Systems fights really about? The Alignment system fights? The healing fights?
It's all about edition wars.
Its a fight because they(WotC) are trying to shoehorn multiple mutually exclusive philosophies on what D&D should be into a single system.
Huh, this thread really is made of magic. TCO and I finally agree on something!
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3 months ago ::
Mar 01, 2013 - 6:15PM
#38
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It is probably boredom and frustration. There is not really that many packet left to playtest and a lot of classes to cover. Can't really take it out on WoTC so we take it out on each other would be my guess.
I disagree. I think it's a couple of things combined.
-We have two irreconcilable groups here, 4th edition fans and non-4th edition fans. Both groups want 5th edition to be an evolution of the mechanics of their favorite edition.
-We have seen in the past that message boards can affect game design, and that if you have enough people complaining about something it can be changed.
-Some small subset are really mad that 4th edition was stopped faster than previous editions.
It's the edition wars. It's a polite form of the edition wars, but it's still the edition wars. When you read the arguements, that's what it's really about. When you go into the fighter threads, what's the fight about? Is it really about the fighter, or is it about the 4th edition fighter vs the other editions?
Similiarly, what's the Dragonborn fight, or the Magic Systems fights really about? The Alignment system fights? The healing fights?
It's all about edition wars.
Its a fight because they(WotC) are trying to shoehorn multiple mutually exclusive philosophies on what D&D should be into a single system.
Huh, this thread really is made of magic. TCO and I finally agree on something!
I agreed with Mand12 once last week. Miracles happen.
...whatever
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3 months ago ::
Mar 01, 2013 - 7:43PM
#39
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I think it's a couple of things combined.
-We have two irreconcilable groups here, 4th edition fans and non-4th edition fans. Both groups want 5th edition to be an evolution of the mechanics of their favorite edition.
Or as I like to phrase it: Those who like to play DnD Right and those that dont.
Some days it is hard to tell which side is which.
Pro DnD Member of the Axis of Awesome Fighters: Using socks to kill monsters since 2012 DnD Next: Now with more then 4 minutes of Roleplay per gaming hour Spoiler:
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"If you can't make an interesting human fighter, then you aren't ready to play anything else yet" Edymnion
"The idea of resting up between encounters to fill-up on hit points and spells struck my meta-gaming nine-year-old as a distinct possibility. "Are you mad?" says my seven-year-old "This place is full of monsters!" "jamesgrahamuk
All characters have a story. Spoiler:
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Sometimes that story is short and sometimes it is long. They can be tragic, comic or absurd. Some teach. Some are just to fill the empty spaces in our lives. Rarely it is a transcendent fugue only half remembered but wondered at. And frequently: "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." -William Shakespeare
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3 months ago ::
Mar 01, 2013 - 8:57PM
#40
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Date Joined:
Jun 22, 2010
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I see it as moving forwards or backwards. To move forward you must accept D&D as a whole (every version), otherwise you want to retract certain features. But the easiest way to end hostility is to have your say a move on. Don't take things to a personal level, even if someone does not agree with you, and do to a misconception or lack of tact, you take offense to it. Just shrug it off.
It is guaranteed each one of us will take any specific reply out of context.
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