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3 months ago  ::  Feb 28, 2013 - 7:19PM #1
YouKnowTheOneGuy
Date Joined: Feb 19, 2012
Posts: 773
Something I liked about the first playtest's lack of OAs was that it made running away viable. So, I'm wondering how would you like to see this handled? Can an enemy (or PC) turn tail and run out?
I'd like to see it be one (or more OAs), and then something like a 4e skill challenge. I worry that retreating isn't a viable enough option for PCs, nor enemies.
"What's stupid is when people decide that X is true - even when it is demonstrable untrue or 100% against what we've said - and run around complaining about that. That's just a breakdown of basic human reasoning."
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 28, 2013 - 7:28PM #2
MechaPilot
Date Joined: Oct 5, 2007
Posts: 9,394
Barring special circumstances (like actually being trapped in a chamber/cave), running away (or a strategic retreat) should always be an option for both PCs and monsters.  Naturally, the problem with this is that the party (PCs or monsters) that is not running will often be inclined to continue to pummel their foes as they retreat.  This often results simply in a choice of "do you want to be shot/zapped in the front or back when you die?"
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad Show

Mar 4, 2012 -- 5:04PM, MechaPilot wrote:

Mar 4, 2012 -- 3:46PM, Warrant wrote:

so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.


Really?  So it goes something like this?

Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well."  Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh.  Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."


taking an argument too far Show

Apr 16, 2012 -- 9:27PM, Frostball wrote:

So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion?  Here's a scenario.  The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land.  They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges.  Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.

Part 1:  I didn't describe any of the hits.  What does he see?

Part 2:  Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up.  What does he see?



Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

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3 months ago  ::  Feb 28, 2013 - 9:33PM #3
Arithezoo
Date Joined: Aug 31, 2008
Posts: 3,288
There was a great article on how to handle this in Dragon 396 titled "Fight or Flight".  In short, at the end of any round either side can decide to surrender (or demand that the other side surrender), attempt to parlay, or attempt to run.

If you surrender, the other side of course can choose to accept or just keep fighting.  Same with attempting to parlay.

For running, the article handled it as a skill challenge.  First, the group must attempt to break away, which is resolved via a group skill check.  Athletics and Stealth were listed as the most common skills here, but of course others could apply.  The difficulty depends on how close you are to an enemy.  If more than half the group passes their check, the group breaks away.  If not, combat continues.

Once the group has broken away, a chase scene might occur (if the other side doesn't want to let you escape), again handled with a skill challenge.

The exact mechanics of handling the situation might change, but I think the overall message of the article is very useful: don't let combat eliminate all options other than fighting to the death.
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3 months ago  ::  Feb 28, 2013 - 9:33PM #4
Jenks
Date Joined: Apr 4, 2008
Posts: 2,497
Aye, remember that retreating was always an option in battles. But being routed and retreating was never a safe option.
My two copper.



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3 months ago  ::  Mar 01, 2013 - 2:27AM #5
kadim
Date Joined: Jun 21, 2012
Posts: 2,766
3e's way of handling it was kind of rubbish though, and unclear. The idea that you get an opportunity at the end of the round to decide what to do is pretty good. I could even see it being resolved by an attack roll: hit their AC and you don't do damage, but you can break away and run without provoking a reaction.
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3 months ago  ::  Mar 01, 2013 - 4:42AM #6
Diffan
Date Joined: Sep 19, 2006
Posts: 3,365
I'm not seeing the problem here. Monster wants to run away from a fight,

Action: Disengage (move 10 feet, unmolested)
Move: Move speed further away from the combat.

Done.    
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3 months ago  ::  Mar 01, 2013 - 4:53AM #7
Arithezoo
Date Joined: Aug 31, 2008
Posts: 3,288

Mar 1, 2013 -- 4:42AM, Diffan wrote:

I'm not seeing the problem here. Monster wants to run away from a fight,

Action: Disengage (move 10 feet, unmolested)
Move: Move speed further away from the combat.

Done.    


It is more a problem for the heroes.  The trouble is because of the way initiative works.  The PCs will most likely be spread out in turn order, with the monsters going in between.  So when the players decide that they need to retreat, they need to somehow get everyone out safely within the bounds of the initiative order.

As each character takes a turn and attempts to retreat, you are left with fewer and fewer characters facing the monsters.  By the end, you will most likely have the monsters surrounding the last character.

As the article says, initiative is very good at some things, but handling retreat (or parlay, or surrender) isn't one of them.  That is why it suggests breaking out from the initiative order when one side wants to do one of those things.

The trick is to remember that initiative, like so much of D&D, is an abstraction.  In the "actual" fight, characters don't act one after another, everyone on the battle waiting patiently for each character to finish before acting themselves.  It is actually a confusing mesh of activity in which each combatant acts at the same time.  Of course, there is no way to easily handle this in an RPG, so initiative and turns makes a lot of sense.  But when the situation calls for it, set the abstraction aside in favor of other methods of resolution.

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3 months ago  ::  Mar 01, 2013 - 6:14AM #8
GilbertMDH
Date Joined: Nov 21, 2009
Posts: 399

Mar 1, 2013 -- 4:53AM, Arithezoo wrote:

Mar 1, 2013 -- 4:42AM, Diffan wrote:

I'm not seeing the problem here. Monster wants to run away from a fight,

Action: Disengage (move 10 feet, unmolested)
Move: Move speed further away from the combat.

Done.    


It is more a problem for the heroes.  The trouble is because of the way initiative works.  The PCs will most likely be spread out in turn order, with the monsters going in between.  So when the players decide that they need to retreat, they need to somehow get everyone out safely within the bounds of the initiative order.

As each character takes a turn and attempts to retreat, you are left with fewer and fewer characters facing the monsters.  By the end, you will most likely have the monsters surrounding the last character.

As the article says, initiative is very good at some things, but handling retreat (or parlay, or surrender) isn't one of them.  That is why it suggests breaking out from the initiative order when one side wants to do one of those things.

The trick is to remember that initiative, like so much of D&D, is an abstraction.  In the "actual" fight, characters don't act one after another, everyone on the battle waiting patiently for each character to finish before acting themselves.  It is actually a confusing mesh of activity in which each combatant acts at the same time.  Of course, there is no way to easily handle this in an RPG, so initiative and turns makes a lot of sense.  But when the situation calls for it, set the abstraction aside in favor of other methods of resolution.



If the whole party wants to escape, everyone in the party can just delay until the lowest initiative member, and then they all break contact at once.

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3 months ago  ::  Mar 01, 2013 - 6:29AM #9
wrecan
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Date Joined: Jun 23, 2005
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Mar 1, 2013 -- 6:14AM, GilbertMDH wrote:

If the whole party wants to escape, everyone in the party can just delay until the lowest initiative member, and then they all break contact at once.



That works very poorly because the entire party had to stand there and take hits during their delay and then they have to risk opportunity actions (depending on where everyone is situated) during the retreat.  It really means that retreat is not a viable option.

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3 months ago  ::  Mar 01, 2013 - 6:50AM #10
Arithezoo
Date Joined: Aug 31, 2008
Posts: 3,288

Mar 1, 2013 -- 6:29AM, wrecan wrote:

Mar 1, 2013 -- 6:14AM, GilbertMDH wrote:

If the whole party wants to escape, everyone in the party can just delay until the lowest initiative member, and then they all break contact at once.



That works very poorly because the entire party had to stand there and take hits during their delay and then they have to risk opportunity actions (depending on where everyone is situated) during the retreat.  It really means that retreat is not a viable option.


Exactly.  My entire point is that there is no reason to use the initiative system in cases where something else would work better.

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