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3 months ago ::
Feb 28, 2013 - 9:07AM
#1
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Reading the D&D Next DM Guidelines and How to Play, this is what I gather:
Dim Light: No Effect on Combat however creatures with special Stealth abilities (such as wood elves) can use Dim Light to hide.
Darkness: Creatures have Disadvantage in Combat
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Given that a torch gives off 20' radius of Bright Light and another 20' radius of Dim Light, this means that characters within 8 squares of the source of light have no real worries.
In a typical dungeon, corridors and rooms don't very often reach a full 8 square (40 ft.) radius. So essentially it brings me to the topic:
What is the point of darkness? It's assumed at least one caster has the light cantrip anyway so the DM can't even try to limit your torches. This in my opinion takes away the sense of fear one faces in the dungeon.
I think we need to either lessen the radius of torchlight and the light spell to 10 ft. radius or perhaps give more 'omph' to Dim Light, I mean even 3.5 Dim Light at least gave off a 20% miss-chance.
And how (dare I say) realistic is that? Does a torch really give off that much light?
What do you think? How do you increase the effectiveness of darkness in your campaigns?
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3 months ago ::
Feb 28, 2013 - 10:01AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Dec 27, 2011
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Darkness can be caused by more than just shadows. Certain monsters (and even wizard PCs) can create magical darkness, some of which ignores mundane light sources. I think the purpose in making dim lighting have no effect on combat is to make sure that, in an average fight, the players don't have to track their movement around the battlefiend as much, but the torch's light may not shine all the way down a dark hallway. Also, dim light may not have an effect on combat, but outside of combat it can make it easier for a creature to hide.
Torches give off roughly that amount of light, I think. Dim light is generally what I would call a moonlit night: not so dark that you cannot see, but dark enough that a stealthy person can benefit from the additional cover. Darkness is total lack of light. So a torch that sheds light to a maximum of 40 ft. seems realistic.
In my campaigns, darkness is used sometimes, such as when the party is exploring a tomb or dungeon. Most of the time, we don't bother with how it affects our battles, unless someone is playing a Rogue or a monster is supposed to be lurking in the shadows. But sometimes we come to a pit too deep for us to see the bottom, and the characters start to hear weird noises...
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3 months ago ::
Feb 28, 2013 - 10:14AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2008
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I completely agree, I've been quite unhappy with darkness pretty much in all editions. Darkness is the perfect fodder for suspense, and they go and blow it by allowing you to see up to 40 ft. away with a 1 cp pieces of equipment. I won't even go down my tirade of sunrods in 4e (20 squares, 100 ft!, 4 hours! All bright light! 2gp!)
I think keeping dim light out of combat is a strategy of theirs to keep things simpler, which I in some respects applaud. As it stands, you really don't need to worry about dim light/shadows until later in the game when more creatures come equipped with special stealth, unless your PCs have something like that.
That said, I do think it needs a mechanic effect to combat. It would encourage melee to close in, it would give stealth characters more to cling on to (sneaking is a whole action after all, and being in shadows means nothing), and it would help condense overall map making in dungeons et al.
Half Cover provides a +2 bonus to AC and Reflex saving throws. Dim Light should provide simply a +2 bonus to AC against creatures who do not have low light vision or darkvision (or other means of detection beyond sight).
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3 months ago ::
Feb 28, 2013 - 10:48AM
#4
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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Use large combat areas.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 28, 2013 - 10:59AM
#5
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There are things that create shadows despite having torches. Things like stalagmites, stalactites, different elevations, narrow/twisting passages, dense vegetation and furniture.
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? join the Old Guard of 4th EditionReality Refracted: Social ContractsD & D: A Documentary Kickstarter ( http://kck.st/SyKNzf) 
Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Show
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl
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3 months ago ::
Feb 28, 2013 - 11:03AM
#6
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There are things that create shadows despite having torches. Things like stalagmites, stalactites, different elevations, narrow/twisting passages, dense vegetation and furniture.
So in effect you are saying I could utilize other elements to change the 'dim light' (in some areas) into 'darkness' (shadows)?
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3 months ago ::
Feb 28, 2013 - 11:16AM
#7
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There are things that create shadows despite having torches. Things like stalagmites, stalactites, different elevations, narrow/twisting passages, dense vegetation and furniture.
So in effect you are saying I could utilize other elements to change the 'dim light' (in some areas) into 'darkness' (shadows)?
Yes if you have 10' high book cases you could lower the lighting behind that area. Until the person with the light gets in a position to raise the lighting level.
I used this in an adventure that featured a grue that teleported between the rows in medium sized library. Only one party member had light sources out and it attacked whoever was in a row by themselves. Eventual more people started taking out light sources to deal with the grue and his minion.
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? join the Old Guard of 4th EditionReality Refracted: Social ContractsD & D: A Documentary Kickstarter ( http://kck.st/SyKNzf)
Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Show
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl
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3 months ago ::
Feb 28, 2013 - 12:10PM
#8
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Use large combat areas.
^ Pretty much this.
Of course, if you're looking for some kind of rule help, I'd suggest wrecking nightvision. Exposure to light (IRL) ruins your nightvision for a period of time. You could say that anyone in the area of bright light cannot see into the dim light if the torch is between them and the dim light (or go more hardcore and say that looking directly at the torchlight causes you to treat dim light as darkness for 10 minutes or so). You could also track creature shadows out from the torch (but that sounds like more hasssle than it's worth).
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
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so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 28, 2013 - 12:38PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Apr 29, 2010
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Illumination's always played a huge role in my campaigns. It's good to remember that in D&D Next, humans and halflings are about the only things (when considering all the monsters and PC races) that can't see in the dark. Darkness is a good way for the elves/dwarves to show off, and torches/sunrods are a beacon for all the bad things. (Especially in the large areas that some players have mentioned.) It can be fun to turn the majority of the lights off in the gaming room when the party is wandering in darkness. 
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3 months ago ::
Feb 28, 2013 - 12:50PM
#10
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Illumination's always played a huge role in my campaigns. It's good to remember that in D&D Next, humans and halflings are about the only things (when considering all the monsters and PC races) that can't see in the dark. Darkness is a good way for the elves/dwarves to show off, and torches/sunrods are a beacon for all the bad things. (Especially in the large areas that some players have mentioned.)
It can be fun to turn the majority of the lights off in the gaming room when the party is wandering in darkness.
Funny I never tried that before... music, sound effects and roleplaying is usually my thing... I never once tried the obvious lol 'duh'.
This brings me to another interesting idea though. For dungeons, we always utilize the dungeon tiles, I could put something like lego pieces and then flash a flashlight into it, that should (in theory) give off shadows on the tiles... it may help 'visualize'.
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