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Feb 28, 2013 -- 6:08AM, mrpopstar wrote:

If you use the forum's 'quote' feature, the people you're in discussion with will be alerted that someone has responded to something they've said.

Feb 28, 2013 -- 12:32AM, Keendk wrote:

I didnt ask if you could distinguish the two, I asked if it was nesceserry to do so. For the X% who want to play deaf with super vision there is a Y% that just want a smooth game where the DM is not double checking and subtracting skill dice. If 1/10X > Y then maybe it is worth it. But from personal experience 1/11 of characters in my game is not audio/visually impaired.

You're using hyperbole to shoot down a point that was never made.

No one has asserted that they desire to play a sensory-impaired character. I submitted that it is not without reason that the archetypal archer would have keen eyes without having equally keen ears.
 

There is no such thing as a straight WIS check. If the player wants to roll in a skill he is entitled to ask if he can. Why would you deny him sensory input in the lion example? And if you allow him sensory input, why does it matter if its listen OR spot, rather than perception? The ninja tracker elf will EITHER see or hear the clues, you cant roll two skills at once...why? Or do I need to fudge that rule as well as a DM?

You misunderstand the rules. There is ONLY a straight Wisdom check, which a player may then modify with the application of an applicable skill (if and only if they happen to be trained in one).
 

So do we really need two skills just so a minority* can play with mild shortsightednes (not blind or with any stigmatism as you still get your D20 and your ability) for roleplaying puposes? Are there any mechanical benefits?

We need two skills to further enrich our storytelling. Our narrative is far more dynamic than wholesale 'notice' as a trained skill. There are countless examples where there is no opportunity to see, only to hear, and vice versa.

Ultimately, the elf has Advantage with their senses; able to roll once for Listen and once for Spot (if the narrative dictates that a sneaking creature is at risk of being both seen and heard).
 

*I think its safe to assume its a minority, and my guess is that it is rather tiny as well. The only times Ive seen people in dnd have either/or of listen and spot is when they have mechanically forced in to it....and THAT is limiting roleplaying.

You've never witnessed a scenario where a hidden creature has total cover (rendering them impossible to see)?

You've never witnessed a scenario where a skulking creature is using Silence to muffle all noise (rendering them impossible to hear)?

There are infinite examples where these skills may be employed separate from each other...

Differentiation affords me the opportunity to define my capability more finely. You don't see the same opportunity.

From what's been posted in this thread, it seems Keendk and I have similar views on this. 

I see benefits in differentiation, but I'm not sure that those benefits outweigh the cost in complexity.  Is it possible that rolling closely related skills up into fewer skills would make for quicker, easier play, allowing for more fun in the process.  This has already been done with sneak, so that the sneaker isn't effectively at disadvantage while trying to sneak, yet what you propose effectively keeps the sneaker at a disadvantage because you aren't using a single perception skill roll.  And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but maybe it could be done better.  Is there another way to get to the differentiation you want besides having two different skills requiring two different skill rolls?  Some game systems have skill specialization, which makes a character better at a more focused part of a skill, while every other part of a skill is at some baseline ability, unless the character has multiple specializations (or concentrations).  I don't know if that's possible in DDN without overcomplicating it, but if it is, perhaps as an advanced rule, maybe that would give you the differentiation you want while giving those who want a more streamlined game what they want.

And I think that's what's being debated here: not whether or not you should get what you want, but whether or not it is worthwhile to streamline the skills for those who want it simpler, and how to make it work for those who don't.  And trust me, I want options!  Maybe there will come a time when I want a character who can hear a whisper originating on the dark side of the moon from his undersea fortress, while he can't see well enough to read, but right now I want a very quick, very efficient rule-set that can do a good enough job modelling the characters my group wants to play in the limited amount of time we have together.