The main question is if DnD 3.5 can be made optimizer proof.
So instead of asking you to optimize a character build, I'm asking you if yo know ways to optimize DnD 3.5 in such a way that it can't be broken any more. I'm not an optimizer but I have the feeling that the core of the problem is the rules for stacking and the amount of material available, even though with Core druid only I think the game is breakable.
What I mean with breakable is that players can get to a point where they perform well above what the CR/ECL mechanic should indicate.
I'm asking for a set of houserules that would make it very hard to impossible to optimize to the point where a CR+5 monster isn't a TPK and a CR monster isn't more than a speedbump.
Simplest tips I know of for this is to be aware of the tier system (I maintain that tier 3 is a sweet spot), restrict the availablility of anything that mucks with the action economy (this usually includes shapechanging effects), be very careful when policing custom items, and remember that the game assumes four encounters of CR=party's ECL per day (I can't begin to tell you how often I saw this point ignored). With this in mind, your criteria are more or less met (barring a few particularly badly-designed spells, i.e. Gate and Simulacrum, or creative work with effects like Contingency; it's kind of disgusting how many problems with 3.5 occur in the core books). The problem with this is that they tend to focus on gentlemens' agreements unless you flat-out ban out-of-tier classes or custom items.
Another point is that tier differences and power curves go up really fast as the levels increase. Houserule patches like E6 are popular as a result (I don't have a handy link, but it's discussed in a lot of places. Short version of that idea: stop power level increases at level 6, but continue to allow player advancement).
We've also had a "discussion" (well, if you can call getting yelled at a discussion) with another forumgoer about the raw power of wealth-by-level optimization. I would very much like to see his suggestion of writing up a guide to why WBL is the ripest avenue for gamebreaking effects, as I haven't really explored the higher end of WBL optimization yet.
The problems with 3.5 optimization in its extremest forms - i.e. LordofProcrastination's Dirty Tricks, Tleilaxu_Ghola's attempts to slay Pun-Pun without DM fiat, and so on - isn't so much the diversity of material available so much as it's the ability to bring all such material to the fore at once. This isn't actually "stacking" in the mechanical sense, it's more about optimizing available actions more than anything else. There's the odd mathematical trick involved here and there, but even then, it almost always tends to come back to the action economy.
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.
[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling) [TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme) [AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class) [RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme) [AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility) [TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC) [TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods) [TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability) [AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme) [AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage) [TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme) [AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme). [TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme) [RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management) [SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum) [RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt) [AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder) [RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard) [RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster) [RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout) [AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum) [AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme) [DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x) [AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB)) [RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive) [AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork) [TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support) [DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility) [AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt) [RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical) [RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical) [TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist) [RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme) [AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity) [TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)
The E6 concept looks interesting, I will discuss it with my group.
Your description of being able to bring everything to the fore at once is what I mean by stacking. It's not just the action economy though, but also the availability, some tricks require 20 rounds of buffing, so aren't very action economy friendly.
I've got to say, while I admire the ambition of this thread I suggest that the key point is made by Tempest in that the key to not breaking the game comes down to a gentlemans agreement, regardless of how well or how poorly balanced the engine is. I've seen this with Rifts, GURPS, Shadowrun, D&D, and more through various editions of each.
At the end of the day, the only way to have a game that's not broken is to have players who understand hat playing in a game your GM can't keep up with, is going to be less than fun and likely short lived. It also involves having a DM that understands he's there to entertain and challenge the players, not just to kill their characters, or to hand feed them everything.
I don't believe you could make any kind of "design" game where there isn't optimization on some level. When I say a "design game" I'm refering to any kind of game where there are parameters that you can chang each time you play and/or as you play. Unless the play experience is always the same there will always be optimization
When tempest mentions that groups should be facing four encounters with EL = average eCL each day I'd also add that it could be broken down to less then that. I'm sure there are some who will disagree but if you put more encounters at a party with a lower EL you should see the 'weaker' classes often do a little better as the power classes can't/shouldn't be blowing their "I WIN" stuff all day. The idea here is simply that a wizard 20 may fair much better against the "infinite horde" the a fighter 20 if that horde comes slowly enough the wizard should (at least in theory) "run out of gas" while the fighter 20 can keep going and going.
Everyone so far has made rather decent points, defiantly spot on in my opinion, so I guess this will be my two cents. Another aspect you have to look at when it comes to optimization, as tempest said, the major key to not breaking a game usualy comes from a mutual agreement between players. However, this agreement of where the "line" is, and why it shouldn't be crossed, also dictates that with proper planing you can however simply walk up to the line and stand just in front of it. Knowing the play style of your DM can be key to figuring out what is a strong option and what isn't. For example If you have a DM who favors role playing scenarios and social interaction encounters over beat em' up game play style, max ranks in bluff and diplomacy can be just as devastating as starting a level 1 barbarian out with a 30 strength.
The point being, optimization is not only a function of knowing the numbers of the game, but also when and where to apply them to maximum advantage. Seeing as how so many different play styles are out there, people who will start out with an ability score array of straight 18's and people who will role dice maybe 3 times a game in lue of simple story telling methods, trying to find a way to "break prof" a game like this is pretty imposable because the definition of broken can be solely defined by it's individual players.
It certainly should be possible to do in the theoretical sense, it just involves a lot of work in the practical sense. There are some elements that you'd need to cut off at the knees outright, a lot of interaction effects to limit or clarify, and perhaps some degree of adjustment to the basic function of the game to accomodate ideas that the design team just weren't familiar with at the time (since we have the advantage of hindsight).
On the gentlemen's agreement front, the way I express it to my players is "Don't use it if you don't ever want your enemies to use it." In theory, you could throw everything in as-is, with both players and their opponents using the most "broken" tricks available, and it would technically be balanced, if brutally short and somewhat arbitrarily resolved. It generally won't be like this because playing rocket tag with ultimate power is rarely what the players enjoy.
One specific thing I will note is that the action economy can work both ways if you're trying to balance things out; some (but not all) of the excessive options wouldn't be as bad if you just made them take longer to use.
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
2) allow "broken" combos, as the Rules of Awesome trump the Rules of Lawyering
3) emphasize non-combat skills at least as much as combat, if not significantly more, so that the "munchkins" don't feel the need to go overboard in just one of the areas (combat) if they know how important everything else will be
OR they could role-play their characters as extremely focused on martial training to the point of reduced ability to function in the world of non-violence, and the others might not mind as much "taking up the slack" for everything else in the game if they know that
a) they will still get at least as much credit for being able to function in the entire rest of the game world without feeling overshadowed in that one other regard
b) they will still have "impossibly" powerful fighters (not necessarily Fighter-class) for when the group actually needs to fight for their lives. In a world as violent as the ones in D&D, why not role-play an adequate fighter as being thankful for being friends with somebody who can protect them from something stronger than s/he could handle alone?
4) As Slagger mentioned, if the party's enemies find out that something can be done, they could very well tell their own allies. Once all of the enemies involved know that something can be done, and the strongest among them devote themselves to learning it for themselves, a couple of them might very well turn out to be able to do it
A character sheet is a player's love letter to the DM. If someone wants to do something and they want to do it well, let them. Encourage them. Have fun with it. -Unknown An adventure is a DM's love letter to the players. If the DM wants something to happen in the game, let it. Encourage the DM. Have fun with it. -Centauri
I'd love for input as to what it should be rather than arguments against why I shouldn't have it at all. -lialwyn
Best defense that I've read in favor of having alignment systems as an option Spoiler:Show
However, if some people are heavily benefiting from the inclusion of alignment, then it would behoove those that AREN'T to listen up and pay attention to how those benefits are being created and enjoyed, no? -YagamiFire
But equally important would be for those who do enjoy those benefits to entertain the possibility that other people do not value those benefits equally or, possibly, do not see them as benefits in the first place. -wrecan
That makes sense. However, it is not fair to continually attack those that benefit for being, somehow, deviant for deriving enjoyment from something that you cannot. Instead, alignment is continually attacked...it is demonized...and those that use it are lumped in with it.
I think there is more merit in a situation where someone says "This doesn't work! It's broken!" and the reply is "Actually it works fine for me. Have you considered your approach might be causing it?" than a situation where someone says "I use this system and the way I use it works really well!" and the back and forth is "No! It is a broken bad system!" because the former posits that improvement could be made...the latter only undermines the enjoyment of the person who is using alignment. -YagamiFire
Simple answer is: No. D&D cannot be made optimization proof. This is because optimization is the act of choosing from a number of options, the best option for one or or more circumstances. Even when it comes to race/class/ability score combinations there are better combinations than others. For example a half orc Sorcerer with a Cha score of 1 is not as good at spellcasting as a Dwarven Wizard with an 18 Int. The CR system has no ability to cope with swings in capability like that.
When roleplaying is throw into the mix, things can get even more out of whack. Players can manupulate fights to their favor or get their hands on things they shouldn't with unexpected decisions, unforeseen consequences, or just a few badly forged documents.
Complex answer is: Sort of. It requires a lot of effort on the DM's part though.
#1: Understand what breaks the system. If you don't know what causes problems, you'll never be able to keep them from popping up. The biggest perpetrators of this are: Spell and monster creep (more books = more spells and monsters). Spells and abilities which allow characters to act more often than they are assumed to be allowed. Includes "Breaking the Action Economy" like plymorphing into a Choker and "Infinite effect Loops" like persisted Vigor. Spells and abilities that allow characters to act well outside their role. Spells and abilities which cause core abilities to become obsolete. (flight, anti-archery)
#2: Understand what character's are doing. You can't prevent any character from getting out of control without knowing what abilities they have and what they are going to use. This ties back into the "Gentleman's Agreement" when a potentially powerful character (Wizard) doesn't use powerful options. And finally, when you don't like an ability or how someone plans to use it...
#3: Be able to say "No" in a convincing way to anything you deem to be too powerful. This involves micromanaging players options and setting rules, sometimes arbitrarily, but I believe is the most effective way to keep things from getting out of control. This also often involves enforcing restrictions on metagaming. Things like "Classes" or "Saving throws" are abstractions of the system and not necessarily within the scope of characters to understand their able to exploit them, even if players can.
#4: Be able to put up with everyday deviations from the CR system. Less-so than the breaks listed under #1, these are times when balance is not spot on but it is expected with the system or setting. A Ranger that's ultra-specialized in hunting Goblinoids for example should have a much easier time against Goblinoids than mere CR can account for.
Final Note: Not all Optimization is bad. Oftentimes optimization makes characters perform much better than they should within the constraints of the story, plot, and challenges that you as a DM set forth. This kind of optimization is the bad kind. It disrupts play, makes it hard to bring challenges to the party, and points out only too strongly that the character is just a character in a D&D game.
Sometimes however, optimization has a better side. It makes characters live up to what the other players and DM see the character as, it enhances the plot and gaming experience, and/or it fills in a much needed party roll. Rather than earning a book to the head for "broken bullsh*t", this is the time when an optimized character's exploits earn anything up to and including applause from the other players.
Lastly, remember that opinions differ. Some players might feel left out when an optimized character steals their spotlight, while others enjoy a better performing ally. DMs may feel that an optimized character has destroyed their deathtrap of a campaign while players are thankful for the increased survival rate. As the old quote goes...
You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time.
I just took a look at the original thread. It looks like your problem is that the players in question have different values, and that's the bigger problem. The rules can't fix interpersonal problems.
I submit to you this. Basically, as long as players place reasonably similar emphasis on the RP aspect of the game and on the optimization aspect of the game (that is, if RP is one axis and minmaxing is another, that people's locations on that grid are close together), then you should be fine. However, expecting changes in the system (which alter how the minmax axis behaves) to patch up problems with RP (a completely separate axis) is kind of setting yourself up for failure.
That said, there is a solution. From the link above:
Finally, the third point that I've noticed people committing the fallacy frequently make suggests that people are immutable, that munchkins should be booted from the table since they just hurt the game. (They also tend to use "munchkin" differently than I do - I read it as "immature player", not "optimizer". You can have a drama queen munchkin, but since D&D is a game of numbers, optimizer munchkins are probably more common.) The simplest rebuttal to this: Teach them. Seriously, all that matters for people to have fun at the game is to have everyone involved fall reasonably close together along both axes - that way, everyone's happy with how the game unfolds. If you have a high RP group and That One Min/Maxer, teach him how to act in character, put the team in situations where value decisions come to the fore, and be patient as he learns to act. And, contrariwise, consider having him offer suggestions on tactics and letting your team work better together - subject to the restriction that the choices must be justified in-character. If you're in the reverse situation, with a group of optimizers and That One Drama Queen, work outside the game to improve his character (not necessarily building his character for him, but certainly helping him see synergy). Similarly, you can get his creativity flexing in a different direction by challenging him to come up with histories or descriptions for particular game elements, even if they don't appear on his character - this is good practice for reflavoring, and it may let him see that his Split Rose Technique is really just a fancy description of Deft Opportunist or something. People can learn - and you can teach them most of the time.
You have a munchkin (immature player) with emphasis on optimization. Rather than compete with him, have him try to teach the others what he knows. You'll notice the whole party improving as a result - all of a sudden the munchkin sees the challenge in bringing the rest of the party up to par, and it's the team that matters rather than his own personal glory. Likewise, the rest of the team will be better suited to whatever the DM can bring to the table.
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.
[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling) [TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme) [AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class) [RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme) [AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility) [TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC) [TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods) [TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability) [AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme) [AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage) [TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme) [AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme). [TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme) [RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management) [SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum) [RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt) [AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder) [RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard) [RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster) [RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout) [AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum) [AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme) [DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x) [AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB)) [RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive) [AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork) [TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support) [DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility) [AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt) [RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical) [RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical) [TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist) [RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme) [AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity) [TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)
